Refugee humanitarian disaster

[gingerjon]

No, proper Christians who follow proper Christian values get my widespread admiration.  For example, the current Pope is on my top 10 people in the world list.  Those who call themselves Christians but fail to follow Christian teachings just because it doesn't suit their prejudices get my contempt.

 

As the very good tweet went: If you're wanting people to prove they're Christian before letting them in then that is a test you've just failed.

[gingerjon]

Political point scoring but ...

 

[Saintslass]

No, proper Christians who follow proper Christian values get my widespread admiration.  For example, the current Pope is on my top 10 people in the world list.  Those who call themselves Christians but fail to follow Christian teachings just because it doesn't suit their prejudices get my contempt.

Which means all Christians get your contempt, as I have already said.

 

One of the main precepts of the Christian faith is that everyone has sinned.  Therefore, everyone has failed to follow Christian teachings at some point.

[ckn]

Which means all Christians get your contempt, as I have already said.

 

One of the main precepts of the Christian faith is that everyone has sinned.  Therefore, everyone has failed to follow Christian teachings at some point.

Not really, as an atheist myself I strongly welcome Christians who make all efforts to follow Christian teachings.  Yes, humans will make mistakes but deliberate misunderstanding and abuse of those teachings are about as absolutely against Christianity as you can get.  There's a reason why the Good Samaritan is one of the most told parables from the bible.

[Saintslass]

Not really, as an atheist myself I strongly welcome Christians who make all efforts to follow Christian teachings.  Yes, humans will make mistakes but deliberate misunderstanding and abuse of those teachings are about as absolutely against Christianity as you can get.  There's a reason why the Good Samaritan is one of the most told parables from the bible.

And how do you know which christians are making 'all efforts' to follow christian teachings?  Not that effort has anything to do with Christianity, which is based on grace and not on effort, but still, I'm just wondering what signs you look for to determine who has met your 'making all efforts' criteria?

[ckn]

And how do you know which christians are making 'all efforts' to follow christian teachings?  Not that effort has anything to do with Christianity, which is based on grace and not on effort, but still, I'm just wondering what signs you look for to determine who has met your 'making all efforts' criteria?

If someone does something that's the exact opposite of the teachings of Jesus then they're probably not a good Christian.  For example, the Good Samaritan parable is a perfect example for the current refugee crisis, the Samaritans and Jews hated each other yet the Samaritan went out of his way by a considerable way to help a Jew in need when no-one else would.  President Hollande today said he'd stick by his decision to admit 30,000 Syrians despite the terrorism as it's the right thing to do, now that's a robustly good attitude.  The Mayor of Roanoke, on the other hand, may find the pearly gates padlocked shut if he tries to get in.

[Saint Toppy]

Well ISIS now seem to have managed to bring in the last major power against them. Confirmation overnight that they have executed a Chinese hostage so Beijing is now threatening to take action against them as well.

 

Surely now the US, EU countries, Russia and China can come together to form a huge military force and wipe out ISIS once and for all ?

[Saintslass]

If someone does something that's the exact opposite of the teachings of Jesus then they're probably not a good Christian.  For example, the Good Samaritan parable is a perfect example for the current refugee crisis, the Samaritans and Jews hated each other yet the Samaritan went out of his way by a considerable way to help a Jew in need when no-one else would.  President Hollande today said he'd stick by his decision to admit 30,000 Syrians despite the terrorism as it's the right thing to do, now that's a robustly good attitude.  The Mayor of Roanoke, on the other hand, may find the pearly gates padlocked shut if he tries to get in.

There is no such thing as a 'good' Christian.  There is a faithful Christian, a devoted Christian but not a good one.  Jesus taught on many things but not on everything and so as with all faith (and no faith) there is invariably a measure of interpretation and extrapolation involved in living a faithful Christian life so there is always the risk that a Christian will be open to criticism depending upon the critic's own interpretation of what it means to be a Christian.  Of the three monotheistic religions, Christianity is the most fluid. 

 

The Good Samaritan isn't actually relevant to the migrant crisis because the migrants have had money and spent it on getting a better life, the parents have been irresponsible in putting their children in grave danger and they are not from a hated group as there are various groups represented within the migrants who have descended on Europe.  The Samaritan was destitute, alone AND from a persecuted minority.  

[Saintslass]

Well ISIS now seem to have managed to bring in the last major power against them. Confirmation overnight that they have executed a Chinese hostage so Beijing is now threatening to take action against them as well.

 

Surely now the US, EU countries, Russia and China can come together to form a huge military force and wipe out ISIS once and for all ?

What an unlikely bunch of bedfellows that would be. 

[tonyXIII]

There is no such thing as a 'good' Christian.  There is a faithful Christian, a devoted Christian but not a good one.  Jesus taught on many things but not on everything and so as with all faith (and no faith) there is invariably a measure of interpretation and extrapolation involved in living a faithful Christian life so there is always the risk that a Christian will be open to criticism depending upon the critic's own interpretation of what it means to be a Christian.  Of the three monotheistic religions, Christianity is the most fluid. 

 

The Good Samaritan isn't actually relevant to the migrant crisis because the migrants have had money and spent it on getting a better life, the parents have been irresponsible in putting their children in grave danger and they are not from a hated group as there are various groups represented within the migrants who have descended on Europe.  The Samaritan was destitute, alone AND from a persecuted minority.  

 

I'm seriously worried about these "interpretations".

 

"There is no such thing as a good Christian." Okay, I'll take your word for that.

 

"...there is a measure of interpretation and extrapolation..." Well, interpretation is just a matter of opinion. Extrapolation, however, can be very dangerous. It means you are projecting your conclusions into areas for which you have no data. Very dangerous. If you are interested, I'll tell you about curare and the separation of ammonium groups.

 

"Chistianity is the most fluid." So, not very robust, then? Still squirming to appeal to as many gullible people as possible? No, I'm not!

 

(btw, with regards to islam, if a religion feels the need to murder those who do not share its beliefs, it has to be a very insecure religion and not one that would appeal to me, not that any religion appeals to me, but islam least of all)

 

The parable of the Good Samaritan is relevant! When his so-called friends had passed him by, his "enemy" stopped to help him. When the rest of the arab world has turned its back on the Syrian refugees, Europe offers them a helping hand. How can you not see the relevance? How do you know that the victim in the parable had never had money? He had been robbed. Just like those fleeing Syria are being robbed by the people traffickers. Not relevant? What do you mean "not from a hated group"? Their own government has waged war on them! "The parents have been irresponsible in putting their children in grave danger" Have you got any children of your own? Would you not spend every penny you had, try every route you could, beg, borrow or steal anything you could to get your children out of that hole?

 

You have just excelled yourself!

[Saintslass]

I'm seriously worried about these "interpretations".

 

"There is no such thing as a good Christian." Okay, I'll take your word for that.

 

Good, because that would be the message Jesus relays in the New Testament of the Bible.  Do note though that I said there are faithful Christians and devoted Christians - those are the qualities the Christian God looks for according to clear Biblical teachings.

 

 

"...there is a measure of interpretation and extrapolation..." Well, interpretation is just a matter of opinion. Extrapolation, however, can be very dangerous. It means you are projecting your conclusions into areas for which you have no data. Very dangerous. If you are interested, I'll tell you about curare and the separation of ammonium groups.

 

Interpretation is a matter of opinion, yes, but it can be a matter of studied opinion and informed opinion so it isn't taken lightly and indeed is what so many of the intra-faith conflicts have been about within Christendom much as within any faith (eg, protestant v Catholic; liberal v conservative).  Extrapolation can indeed be very dangerous but likewise it is sometimes necessary, for example when wrestling with matters not covered in the Bible, for intance abortion. 

 

 

"Chistianity is the most fluid." So, not very robust, then? Still squirming to appeal to as many gullible people as possible? No, I'm not!

 

I was thinking more of the flowing nature of fluidity actually.  Christianity is clearly robust as it is has been around for over 2000 years, is still the most widely and numerically followed faith on the planet (insofar as such figures can ever be accurate) and is growing in many parts of the world, albeit not in the cynical West at present (not for the first time has it ebbed, and I'm sure it will flow in the west again).

 

 

The parable of the Good Samaritan is relevant! When his so-called friends had passed him by, his "enemy" stopped to help him. When the rest of the arab world has turned its back on the Syrian refugees, Europe offers them a helping hand. How can you not see the relevance? How do you know that the victim in the parable had never had money? He had been robbed.

He had been robbed indeed, which left him destitute, as I said.  He hadn't spent his money but had it taken from him. 

 

 

Just like those fleeing Syria are being robbed by the people traffickers. Not relevant?

The 'Syrians' (both genuine and otherwise, hence the scare quotes) chose to give their money to people traffickers.  They didn't have to.  There are camps in three countries where they could have stayed.  No, not the nicest places to be but better than in Syria or certain parts of Iraq and Afghanistan (that point doesn't of course apply to those jumping on the bandwagon from places like Pakistan and the Baltic countries).  The man in the Good Samaritan story had his money forcibly taken off him.  That's an entirely different scenario as you well know.

 

 

What do you mean "not from a hated group"? Their own government has waged war on them!

Not in Pakistan or the Baltics they aren't and nor is that the case in Iraq or Afghanistan.  It is only the case in certain parts of Syria too although I fully appreciate anyone wanting to escape the horrors of those certain parts of Syria.

 

 

"The parents have been irresponsible in putting their children in grave danger" Have you got any children of your own? Would you not spend every penny you had, try every route you could, beg, borrow or steal anything you could to get your children out of that ###### hole?

I wouldn't at any time put my children at known risk of death to have a better life, no, especially when I had found a place of safety already, albeit not a particularly nice one. 

 

 

You have just excelled yourself!

Thank you.

[Robin Evans]

Grief..... I gave up after the first chapter.... Each to their own.

Love n peace

[gingerjon]

Love n peace

 

Hippy.

[Robin Evans]

Hippy.

yup!

[Farmduck]

"Baltics?" I think the Baltic states are EU members so they wouldn't need to pretend to be refugees.

[Wolford6]

You know that nativity play that schools and churches put on over Christmas?  Middle eastern couple seeking refuge and shelter .....

 

... in the Middle East.

[ckn]

... in the Middle East.

These weird Middle Eastern religions... they should all just go back there if they want to practice them...

[Farmduck]

Well another typical week. Our first Syrian refugees arrived and were settled in Australia this week, while 110 countries at the UN bagged OZ for our Human Rights record.

[Wolford6]

Well another typical week. Our first Syrian refugees arrived and were settled in Australia this week, while 110 countries at the UN bagged OZ for our Human Rights record.

 

I'll not be surprised if those refugees don't get more financial support per individual than the average individual aboriginee*.

 

*Apology if this nomenclature is politically-incorrect. No offence intended.

[Farmduck]

Aborigine wasn't offensive but it's gone out of fashion, replaced by aboriginal, or indigenous. Some aboriginals actually do quite well.  http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4345515.htm

[Phil]

I'll not be surprised if those refugees don't get more financial support per individual than the average individual aboriginee*.

*Apology if this nomenclature is politically-incorrect. No offence intended.

Yeah they'll get hundred of thousands of dollars, free houses, cars, swimming pools, kids school fees paid, wish my country could get the bombed out of it

[tonyXIII]

Saintslass, thank you for the response. As I read it, we generally agree that a lot of the "sound and fury" is really down to differing interpretation/opinion, whether that be about religion or the politics of the situation.

 

However, I still cannot accept your view that parents are putting their children's lives in danger. At least, they are not doing this willingly. Their lives were put in danger by other forces (Bashar al-Assad, IS and the Free Syrian Army, if that group still exists?) and the parents are trying to get their children to a safe haven. The refugee camps are largely in Jordan and Lebanon, I think, and depending on where you are in Syria, getting to them might be extremely difficult/dangerous/impossible. It may be that getting into and then out of Turkey is a much easier or safer route. I very much doubt that any parent would choose to take their child on such a journey unless they were in absolute fear of their lives where they were. Does anybody in that situation have a free and informed choice? I put it to you that they don't. They are desperate.

[gingerjon]

Well another typical week. Our first Syrian refugees arrived and were settled in Australia this week, while 110 countries at the UN bagged OZ for our Human Rights record.

 

1 of those 110 is the Australian Humans Rights Commission, presumably,

[Farmduck]

1 of those 110 is the Australian Humans Rights Commission, presumably,

 

I wouldn't mind the criticism if I thought that it was well-researched or deeply-considered. It rarely is. Usually a UNHR Rapporteur arrives here, spends a week being guided around a few selected low points by relevant interest groups, then flies back to Switzerland/Sweden/Wherever and concocts the standard, accusatory, guilt-provoking report.

 

It always includes:

 

- a trip to Eveleigh St Redfern where a group of "aboriginal activists" have been living in tents for months complaining about the run-down state of the houses there and the fact they are all slated for demolition. Let's ignore most of the facts like:

• that street was fully restored by the AUS Govt back in the 70s and handed over to the Aboriginal Housing Corporation
• all the trashing of that area occurred when only aboriginals lived there and the management and maintenance of the area was the responsibility of aboriginals
• the "Tent people" are aboriginals in dispute with the Aboriginal Housing Corporation. This has nothing to do with White Australia.

 

Next there'll be a superficial analysis of incarceration numbers. Aboriginals are 14.8 times more likely to be incarcerated than non-indigenous people. I've been hearing this (or similar) most of my life but I've never seen any balanced analysis of these numbers nor have I heard people ask the right questions:

 

• How many of them were guilty? More relevantly, how many were guilty of violent offences?
• I object strongly to anyone being jailed for trivial offences and, in some states, it does seem that this happens to indigenous people far more often than non-indigenous.
• What if, instead of comparing White v Aboriginal, we compared the 2 groups according to income? Would we find that Aboriginals are being incarcerated at the same level as white people from similar socio-economic backgrounds? I don't know because the reports never tell us.
• Why are there so many Aboriginal children in juvenile detention? Is it because magistrates get a special buzz out of sentencing them, or is it because they have fewer alternative options? If there's no stable family environment to return them to on probation, what other choices are there?

 

Then there's the obligatory trip to some "town camp" in the Northern Territory, usually something like this:

 

 

Naturally, the Geneva-based UN bureaucrats find this confronting and generally, unliveable. Let's ignore the fact that most of these people could just start paying rent and move into town and live in the same houses as everyone else. Let's ignore the fact that many of these aboriginals come from designated Aboriginal Lands, where they could return to their own people and live off mining royalties or use the mining and tourism royalties to build their own houses and facilities.

 

So let's just round off the usual UN "fact-finding mission" with one last round of cocktails then get back to Geneva before any of this "poor" rubs off on you.

[JohnM]

These weird Middle Eastern religions... they should all just go back there if they want to practice them...

 

They've had  1000 years or more to practice them. They should be perfect at it by now!