Why are we actively hiding attendances?

[Scubby]

Scubby I am familiar enough with your posts to understand this isnt a mindless gripe, i just dont agree that being open with the crowds is so important. I think as a sport we get obsessed last year there werr 1% variances being used as a way to bash a system and call for an overhaul.

I would expect any sponsorship proposal to contain all the numbers you need.

By the way I enjoy the crowd discussions and have an interest in the numbers but am not concerned if they arent included everywhere.

 

I accept this fully. However, I think that is each to our own. This is certainly not being used as crowd bashing, I don't want our game to start being over protective if they start to dip. If they do, everyone should know and that in itself puts pressure on clubs and those running the game to do more. As you can probably tell, I have been pretty frustrated with how the game is trying to manage this change. They went all out for 'a new era' and 'every minute matters' last year and this year they have hung the comp out to dry. They should be going all out to push for clubs to increase attendances and this is usually caused, however painful, by being shamed into it (you may remember the empty terraces at Castleford Daily Mail picture from 1996).

[Blind side johnny]

Define a poor attendance.

 

 

One where nobody has any money.

 

Next!

[Padge]

Ok

Any Crowd below 8000k is a poor crowd in the top level in our Sport in the UK.

 

I had to re-boot to reply as my computer locked up as attempted to respond to you.

I am putting my firewall back up.

I took it down due to the "Phishing alarms"

 

First I presume you mean 8,000 and not 8,000,000. :-)

 

So for an SL club 7,999 is a poor crowd and 8,000 is not.

[Padge]

One where nobody has any money.

 

Next!

[Trailfinder]

Attendances can be used as a small part of measuring the standard of a club as they directly contribute to that clubs ability to stand on its own 2 feet. They aren't the "be all and end all" of a club, as Huddersfield and Ken Davy have shown, but they are of interest to some fans who are interested in just the weekly score-lines and have a concern for the direction the game is heading in.

I suspect there's be less interest in attendances had Blake Solly kept his powder dry at the start of last year, claiming "success" of the new system when in reality it delivered little change and any it did deliver was in the negative column, but, because he did this, it's a fair question to ask as to why attendance figures are scarce on the ground.

I agree that you can find these should you want to in the RL publications and that's fine, but the reality is that in this day and age, information is freely available on the web, yet attendances for top flight and second division RL are not and that draws suspicion.

 

I was at Trailfinders at the weekend and whilst the ground looks full with 700 people in it, there was nowhere near that number and that is a worry for any fan of London Broncos, as they do not look capable of standing on their own as and when their owner steps away. This is true of many clubs in many sports, but unlike other codes like Union and Soccer, we do not have the luxury of a long line of investors wanting to plough cash into our game and therefore, attendances are important.

[Padge]

I think people have taken issue with the accusation that the RFL are ACTIVELY hiding attendances. 

 

Some people seem to think an individual attendance tells you a lot about the health of a club, it doesn't, it tells you how many were there that day.

 

What tells you more is attendance trends and knowing what last weekends attendance was will not give you that information, even trends have to be qualified as many factors affect attendances.

 

The real figure that should be measured used to be published quite often many years ago and that is gate receipts, now that is the figure you really want.

[Oxford]

Attendances can be used as a small part of measuring the standard of a club as they directly contribute to that clubs ability to stand on its own 2 feet.

Your post was really good but this bit in particular struck me. How much of standing on its own two feet comes from crowds? To me the fans are the most important bit and the most ignored but how much do they contribute to the whole?

[lifer]

1003 at the Barrow raiders v Hunslet Hawks if you want to know.

[Trailfinder]

I think people have taken issue with the accusation that the RFL are ACTIVELY hiding attendances. 

 

Some people seem to think an individual attendance tells you a lot about the health of a club, it doesn't, it tells you how many were there that day.

 

What tells you more is attendance trends and knowing what last weekends attendance was will not give you that information, even trends have to be qualified as many factors affect attendances.

 

The real figure that should be measured used to be published quite often many years ago and that is gate receipts, now that is the figure you really want.

 

If this isn't a centrally organised strategy, then it is doing an exceedingly good impersonation of one. Look back over any of the preceding 20 SL seasons (or further) and you will be able to find published attendances for the vast majority of games. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

Isn't this really a - I want to moan about attendances ad Infinitum and now I have to do some legwork boo hoo - thread? Or have I missed it.

I look closely at attendances every year at the end of the year, usually when I sit down with the ever brilliant RL yearbook published by the owners of this fair site. By that stage, you have lots of useful data, and enough of it to judge trends. Taking a snapshot and extrapolating into infinity small pieces of data is a pointless exercise.

I am not sad that they are not on the BBC web site, as they were frequently wrong, always on the lower side and seized upon by the Solly bashers.

[Trailfinder]

Your post was really good but this bit in particular struck me. How much of standing on its own two feet comes from crowds? To me the fans are the most important bit and the most ignored but how much do they contribute to the whole?

 

Fans = Ticket sales, residual sales (beer&food), Replica Merchandise sales and the more you have of them, the more attractive you are to sponsors. Some clubs get this, some don't.

[Padge]

If this isn't a centrally organised strategy, then it is doing an exceedingly good impersonation of one. Look back over any of the preceding 20 SL seasons (or further) and you will be able to find published attendances for the vast majority of games. 

 

As has been pointed out all the media outlets (including the SL site) are using the same source which is PA, if they aren't putting the figure out then nobody will publish it.

[Trailfinder]

Isn't this really a - I want to moan about attendances ad Infinitum and now I have to do some legwork boo hoo - thread? 

 

Not at all. I am not in the slightest bothered about the availability or non availability of attendance figures as it has little impact on my enjoyment of the game itself. What I have said is that it is suspicious that 12 months after Mr Solly hailed bumper crowds which by seasons end turned out to be anything but bumper, the shutters would appear to have come down on the flow of information released to the media. 

 

Equally as suspicious is the appearance of said statistics on the SL site after this thread started and we RL fans do love a good old conspiracy theory!

[Padge]

Fans = Ticket sales, residual sales (beer&food), Replica Merchandise sales and the more you have of them, the more attractive you are to sponsors. Some clubs get this, some don't.

 

Actually more important is how often you are on TV and how many photos do you get in the press. 10,000 viewers in a ground but over 10 times that watching on TV, that is what sponsors are interested in.

 

Sponsors don't want their name on a shirt so it gets seen by a clubs fans, they want on a shirt because it will be on TV.

[Oxford]

Fans = Ticket sales, residual sales (beer&food), Replica Merchandise sales and the more you have of them, the more attractive you are to sponsors. Some clubs get this, some don't.

Thanks Trail finder but what is the percentage rates of fans based Income to other income strands? Are there figures for the clubs who do and those who don't and how do they vary?

[Oxford]

Actually more important is how often you are on TV and how many photos do you get in the press. 10,000 viewers in a ground but over 10 times that watching on TV, that is what sponsors are interested in.

 

Sponsors don't want their name on a shirt so it gets seen by a clubs fans, they want on a shirt because it will be on TV.

So is there a public domain set of figures comparing these income streams or not? Obviuosly Leeds have a bigger fan base than say Widnes but where do Leeds as a club have more?

 

And does that also mean clubs on TV (the "better" clubs) get a bigger piece of the TV pie?

[Trailfinder]

Thanks Trail finder but what is the percentage rates of fans based Income to other income strands? Are there figures for the clubs who do and those who don't and how do they vary?

Back in 2007, Ian Lenegan said that the income from each ticket at Quins RL was 9.85. Tickets then started at 15 walk up and I think about 13.50 as part of a ST.

 

Tickets are now about 20 notes across the board, so it's fair to assume (dangerous, I know) that income per ticket is about 12.30. 

 

If you're Leeds then this delivered 2.15 million on the gate over 11 games last year......if you're Wakefield, 540,000. It's not an exact science and I would hate for clubs to "open their books to all", but if you accept that a fan will spend another 12.30 in the ground on residuals, then the figures do add up. 

As for sponsorship.....I'd hazard a guess that Leeds receive considerably more in income than Wakefield.

 

Padge. I agree about the sponsorship desires, but Leeds Building Soc on 7k+ Leeds replica shirts isn't a bad thing and will be of interest as the currency of marketing as you rightly point out is "eyeballs"

[Padge]

Back in 2007, Ian Lenegan said that the income from each ticket at Quins RL was 9.85. Tickets then started at 15 walk up and I think about 13.50 as part of a ST.

 

Tickets are now about 20 notes across the board, so it's fair to assume (dangerous, I know) that income per ticket is about 12.30. 

 

If you're Leeds then this delivered 2.15 million on the gate over 11 games last year......if you're Wakefield, 540,000. It's not an exact science and I would hate for clubs to "open their books to all", but if you accept that a fan will spend another 12.30 in the ground on residuals, then the figures do add up. 

As for sponsorship.....I'd hazard a guess that Leeds receive considerably more in income than Wakefield.

 

Padge. I agree about the sponsorship desires, but Leeds Building Soc on 7k+ Leeds replica shirts isn't a bad thing and will be of interest as the currency of marketing as you rightly point out is "eyeballs"

 

That is roughly the same back of fag packet figure that I estimated when I did the same exercise earlier. However I and my group I go with spend nothing in the ground so putting a figure on in ground spend isn't so easy. Also you have to know the arrangements that a club has where catering/bars are concerned.

 

Some clubs forgo catering for a lower lease agreement, some take a cut.

 

Some clubs may (Wigan did this at CP) franchise out the catering for a known fixed income and the catering suppliers take all the profit.

 

The arrangements will vary from club to club, it doesn't equate that 10k fans will drink 20k pints therefore you have 60k income. Very simplistic figures as an example.

 

Some clubs will not get any more or any less from in stadium sales, except perhaps programs, regardless of how many are in. The only clubs where it will vary with attendance are the ones who don't go the whole franchise catering route in a leased stadium or run the whole of the catering themselves.

 

Clubs have to take a view of what is the best way to go for them, known fixed income or variable controlled by on the day demand.

[Dave T]

I do like it when fans claim the rfl cant organise a pee up in a brewery but are awesome when it comes to a conspiracy!

[Ivarr the Boneless]

I managed to catch an Oxford game by chance at the end of last summer. And literally, there were 50-60 people there. Now, everyone can play along and pretend this never happened and Oxford are doing fine or we could report it and the club would then know it needed to get its backside into gear if it wanted to survive as a semi-professional club. I'm sure we all want a thriving club in Oxford.

The people paying the bills are well aware of this. It's one of the main reasons the club is leaving Iffley Road after one more game. There are valid arguments for releasing attendances but not that one.

I'd also add that I've been around the third tier long enough to know my estimates of the crowd are often well south of the declared figure. Guess I must be rubbish at estimating then.......

[Futtocks]

I think the problem in this thread was there right at the start, in the intent of the title.

 

It wasn't "Where are the attendance figures this season? We used to get them regularly."

 

It wasn't even "Are the attendance figures being concealed from us?"

 

It just kicked off with "This is definitely a deliberate attempt to conceal information!"

[marklaspalmas]

4 pages in and scuse me if it's been covered, but is there anywhere on the worldwide interweb where the 'legwork's been done and this season's attendances are available?

[Padge]

4 pages in and scuse me if it's been covered, but is there anywhere on the worldwide interweb where the 'legwork's been done and this season's attendances are available?

 

http://www.rugby-league.com/superleague/results

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

4 pages in and scuse me if it's been covered, but is there anywhere on the worldwide interweb where the 'legwork's been done and this season's attendances are available?

All divisions available in League Express if you can get a copy, Padge's link only has SL and Batley - Bradford.

[deluded pom?]

4 pages in and scuse me if it's been covered, but is there anywhere on the worldwide interweb where the 'legwork's been done and this season's attendances are available?

For Scubby's sanity someone should post all the attendances each Monday?