Leigh to spend full SL Cap

[super major]

The RFL needs to create a vision and work towards it. If the vision is 16 fully professional clubs spending to the cap then say that. If it is 2x10 divisions with P&R then say it. If it is 3x8 still in 2030 then say it. 

 

They have brought in a system that they seem to have instantly lost faith in marketing - even when it has brought more to the table than in 2015. Where is every minute matters? Where is the marketing? Exiles, Roses, Magic, Internationals - we can't run a whole sport strategy on one push at launch and then sit back and watch it wither. Sports don't run on 'if it swims it swims' mentalities.

The trouble is not the sytem they have adopted but trying to reconcile it with a larger salary cap for SL clubs.

How they ever thought it would work to allow promotion and jeopardy is not clear

[sweaty craiq]

Two tens is nailed any time soon, just get on with it and support clubs outside the 20 who have the finance and crowds to make the move

[Padge]

Leigh can spend the full SL cap, they won't get better players for paying it, they'll get the best championship players on SL wages who won't hack it if they get promoted and by the time they know they are promoted all the SL players that could give them a fighting chance will have been signed up by existing SL clubs for the next year.

 

Licensing was and still is the answer to the conundrum, only problem is the RFLbottled it when it came to chucking clubs out. You come up with what you have got, then you get time to prove yourself. Its the only way that will sensibly work in a game that is strapped for cash.

 

IF Leigh buy there way in to SL just wait for all the wailing from other clubs who scream unfair playing field.

 

You want auto P&R then a lot of clubs have got to start earning a lot more money, and I mean a lot.

[Oxford]

The system should be compared with the alternative system proposed along side it.

 

Six SL clubs voted for the alternative system, that would have worked by NOW - 1. deal with that please?

 

Seven SL clubs voted for for  a system that would:-

 

2. Give them every chance not to get relegated. (self interest)

3. Give them advance payments from the SKY money they were desperate for as they were skint. (self interest again)

4. Was borrowed from Swiss soccer whose officials suggested we do not touch it. 

5. Was introduced by a career builder who has now been elbowed out. (self interest)

6. Was NOT put to a vote amongst the Championship clubs (self interest again)

7. Would go on maintaining the stagnation and decline of the Championship since 2008

 

Indeed you are excusing the RFL from the bashing they deserve, and you are putting a ridiculous spin on the debate by totally ignoring the core issues of 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 above. Deal with them please.

 

As for "meaningful matches" this was about jeapordy and the resultant crowds,and crowds didn't go up because as was said at the time by many fans on here games between mid table clubs in which SL sides had a grossly unfair advantage over CC sides had little meaning for fans. As was stated as fact by the Swiss football officials crowds didn't find the system meaningful there, in the end it bored them, yet the RFL & Solly ignored that as you are doing.

 

8. If you have any evidence you can put forward that crowds were/are boosted by the meaningfullness of it all then please actually produce it?

 

9. If you can explain why no P & R was somehow meaningful please explain it?

 

10. What about what it "means" to twelve championship clubs to be given a fair and even chance of getting promotion to SL? deal with that please? Do you really think any of them wanted this system??

 

Here's your simple and easy bottom line if you can't handle all the above ten flaws in your argument. Go back to the original meeting and the 7-6 vote. Just let us know which system would YOU have voted in of the two??

 

"Six SL clubs voted for the alternative system, that would have worked by NOW - 1. deal with that please?" You don't know it would have worked by now because it never happened Parky! And as for using as evidence the football crowd from a country where women under 390 don't have the vote yet is funny to say the least. Which deals with 1 and 4 without breathing heavily. Now as for 2 - 7 These are the self - interests I was refering to so don't actually counter my argument!

 

I never said it boosted crowds, and if you weren't so annoyed by everything you'll have read that I agree every club in the championship should have the chance for promotion if you have P- R, and I've said this every time you asked!

 

I have no idea what the hell number 9 even means?

 

It's not a matter of which one I would have voted for,Parky that's a silly question. What we have is the 3 x 8 and that provides a competition in which promotion is a possibility which from the the start of any season is all there is the chance, opportunity there are no guarantees it will be your side no matter what system you have.

 

Trying something once and then giving up has been the hallmark of RL history. This has been tried once which means it would fit right in.But once for anything will never provide evidence for all the things you assert are written in stone. Just because you may go back to your preferred fashion won't make that alright just more of the same old toe in the water jobs. And that has served us so well up to today! You saying something  hasn't worked doesn't make it true, any more than you saying the six were correct makes that right.

 

All I want is for the RFL to choose stuff and stick to it and adjust it, if it needs it, to make it work.

 

And really Parky you need to try and be a bit more fun!

[Padge]

"Six SL clubs voted for the alternative system, that would have worked by NOW - 1. deal with that please?" You don't know it would have worked by now because it never happened Parky! And as for using as evidence the football crowd from a country where women under 390 don't have the vote yet is funny to say the least. Which deals with 1 and 4 without breathing heavily. Now as for 2 - 7 These are the self - interests I was refering to so don't actually counter my argument!

 

 

 

To just pick up on your first point, the other proposal I belive was same structure with auto one up one down, somebody would have gone up at the end of last season and someone gone down.

[LeeF]

They "face going straight back down" is what I said. The current RFL system offers Mr. Beaumont the wonderful chance to spend £1,000,000 of his own money to try to make the RFL system work so they can save face by getting Leigh promoted. Once there Leigh may or may not stay up, but if they did go down Mr. Beaumont's £1,000,000 will all be wasted.[/size]

 [/size]

Why should Mr. Beaumont have to risk £1,000,000 of his hard earned money in the first place to bail out the RFL over a farce of the RFL's own making?? It's not as if Leigh voted for this system? It's not as if they even got a vote??[/size]

 [/size]

Leigh won the darn thing two years ago in style, were top Championship club last year, they are this year and the RFL have the cheek to encourage the owner to spend piles more money to get over a problem of the  RFL's making with no guarantee Leigh can stay up if they did it.[/size]

 [/size]

Featherstone TBF did all they could year on year to satisfy the RFL for a licence and were dumped on, now it's Leigh that are being dumped on when we are supposed to be back to P & R when the progressive CC clubs are supposed to replace the regressive SL clubs - like the ones who won't spend full SL cap.[/size]

 [/size]

So just to be clear Legh would face relegation under any system. Just like all the clubs in SL

Read on......[/size]

[Bull4Life]

Why not have a hybrid version of the two systems that finds some common ground and satisfies elements from both sides of the table?

 

i.e.

 

At the end of the regular season, the bottom 4 Super League clubs form a small mini-league, retaining points already accrued from the regular season. They would play each other a further time both home and away. This would generate an extra 6 rounds of fixtures for all clubs with an equal distribution of home and away matches.

 

The top 4 Championship clubs do the same.

 

At the end, the bottom placed Super League club is relegated and the top Championship club is promoted.

 

This guarantees P/R whilst still keeping that 'jeopardy' element - there is still something to play for longer into the season.

 

It ensures that clubs who find themselves in the bottom 4 due to points deductions for breaching rules, can't then wipe the slate clean at the end of the regular season, and therefore punishments actually can have consequences.

 

It also means you are not trying to work out with two games to go who you potentially could be playing home or away given different outcomes - the resulting fixture list is simplified and easier to follow.

It doesn't satisfy the real issues which are lack of investment and exposure especially at lower levels, but then none of the current proposals do. This way at least tries to appease elements from both camps.

 

Just a thought - feel free to rip me to pieces if it's a bad idea! :-)

[Oxford]

To just pick up on your first point, the other proposal I belive was same structure with auto one up one down, somebody would have gone up at the end of last season and someone gone down.

Padge hasn't the point of the discussion been more than promotion? Hasn't it been about the present system and whether or  not it works? Works although ignored most of the time means goes up and stays up which is what has always been wrong with the old system!

 

Also the point has been more about the one a poster favours which is why Leigh spending up to the SC has become yet another interminable debate over "the pros and more pros of the one I like!" and "But I want it now!"

[Padge]

Padge hasn't the point of the discussion been more than promotion? Hasn't it been about the present system and whether or  not it works? Works although ignored most of the time means goes up and stays up which is what has always been wrong with the old system!

 

Also the point has been more about the one a poster favours which is why Leigh spending up to the SC has become yet another interminable debate over "the pros and more pros of the one I like!" and "But I want it now!"

 

You asked how would the alternative have achieved the aim quicker, I answered your question.

[Oxford]

You asked how would the alternative have achieved the aim quicker, I answered your question.

And I debated the point because the achievement. quicker or otherwise, is a side issue and disputable !

[The Parksider]

It's not a matter of which one I would have voted for,Parky that's a silly question. 

 

Then the 13 English Superleague clubs were asked a silly question by Solly and Wood.

 

We should not let the game be run by by silly people should we.

 

When I was nine we started to do tests at school to prepare us for 11+ and we had 20 simple questions to answer. every month. You can't answer one.

[The Parksider]

Why not have a hybrid version of the two systems that finds some common ground and satisfies elements from both sides of the table?

 

i.e.

 

At the end of the regular season, the bottom 4 Super League clubs form a small mini-league, retaining points already accrued from the regular season. They would play each other a further time both home and away. This would generate an extra 6 rounds of fixtures for all clubs with an equal distribution of home and away matches.

 

The top 4 Championship clubs do the same.

 

At the end, the bottom placed Super League club is relegated and the top Championship club is promoted.

 

This guarantees P/R whilst still keeping that 'jeopardy' element - there is still something to play for longer into the season.

 

It ensures that clubs who find themselves in the bottom 4 due to points deductions for breaching rules, can't then wipe the slate clean at the end of the regular season, and therefore punishments actually can have consequences.

 

It also means you are not trying to work out with two games to go who you potentially could be playing home or away given different outcomes - the resulting fixture list is simplified and easier to follow.

It doesn't satisfy the real issues which are lack of investment and exposure especially at lower levels, but then none of the current proposals do. This way at least tries to appease elements from both camps.

 

Just a thought - feel free to rip me to pieces if it's a bad idea! :-)

 

No I wouldn't rip you to pieces on it, nor should anyone else, keep posting and I hope that somehow the Bulls get out of the trap they are in and back to Superlegue. If this system dumps Leeds as well then lord help us...........

[The Parksider]

Leigh can spend the full SL cap, they won't get better players for paying it, they'll get the best championship players on SL wages who won't hack it if they get promoted.

 

Licensing was and still is the answer to the conundrum, only problem is the RFL bottled it when it came to chucking clubs out.

 

You come up with what you have got, then you get time to prove yourself. Its the only way that will sensibly work in a game that is strapped for cash.

 

You want auto P&R then a lot of clubs have got to start earning a lot more money, and I mean a lot.

 

As usual can't argue with any of that. Post more please.

 

For me licensing was run primarily as a method of ensuring expansion clubs were in Superleague to allow them to get the central investment, and high profile to grow. Les Catalans got a licence even before licensing formally existed and of course London Broncos and Celtic Crusaders were waved through without a thought every time they applied. 

 

That approach was fine at the time, RFL had to take the risk on the new clubs.

 

That they bottled it may be understandable on the basis that they maybe didn't want to ruin two M62 clubs in case the expansion clubs didn't work. Which two didn't.

 

But whatever the realities of that period of licensing it's left the game with no taste for it's return, but I can't argue with the logic.

 

You say "You want auto P&R then a lot of clubs have got to start earning a lot more money, and I mean a lot".

[The Parksider]

The concept of a "fully professional" championship is not ridiculously out of reach imo. 

 

If fully professional means pro-clubs to Superleague standard where a minimum £3,200,000 turnover is required then you may need to back that statement with some facts and figures?

 

The RFL needs to create a vision and work towards it. If the vision is 16 fully professional clubs spending to the cap then say that.

 

Please take a look back at Neil Hudgell's analysis of Superleague when it was unravelling at 14 clubs, with London hopelessly underfunded, the Bulls skint and broke, and Wakefield skint and broke, and Salford near dead..

 

At the time Beaumont had the money and the low coast operation to make a fist of SL, and RFL dropped lucky on Dr, Koukash, so only 12 clubs could be "fully professional" but there were warnings by people in the know as regards the games finances that 10 may have been the better figure to go for.

 

As it was SKY upped the deal to help.

 

All the evidence and all the opinion of those who run these things and know the finances (and in Hudgell's case provides the finances to his club) came nowhere near 16 good sir.

 

Two tens is nailed any time soon, just get on with it and support clubs outside the 20 who have the finance and crowds to make the move

 

Blimey Craiq

 

Hudgell said 10

 

Scubby says 16

 

You and Tommy say 20

 

I just don't understand where we get this idea from when the events, realities and facts show that we can just about manage 12 fully professional clubs as long as SKY pay the whole wage bill - which they do now - and as long as the RFL no longer place costly licensing requirements on clubs, so Wakey can play in a dump and the Hull clubs can have one academy etc.

 

Padge says "You want auto P&R then a lot of clubs have got to start earning a lot more money, and I mean a lot"

 

Gentlemen, just where is the money to come from?? 

 

If any of you can't answer that, then at least give us a clue as to which championship clubs can run professionally to a basic superleague standard?? Remember that even Widnes and Wakefield cannot do that, they have had to to pay short of Superleague wages to survive and they are IN superleague?? 

[Oxford]

Then the 13 English Superleague clubs were asked a silly question by Solly and Wood.

 

We should not let the game be run by by silly people should we.

 

When I was nine we started to do tests at school to prepare us for 11+ and we had 20 simple questions to answer. every month. You can't answer one.

You are bellicose these days Parky!

 

Why when I responded to all your points last time out do you reply only in terms of the one you imagine I did not answer!

 

Also which one did I not answer or was it just you didn't get the answers you wanted?

 

Anyway Leigh have or are spending in an effort to get into SL, which means the game and the tournament just got more interesting. What they have now is certainly the makings of an SL team which is something that can't be said of many top championship sides in the past! And how good is that for the middle eights?

[Tommygilf]

Clearly the problem is money. Both for the ability to run a club off the field and to recruit quality players.

If a SL club doesn't run itself in a way that is attractive to sponsors/fans etc. And a championship club does then they should be able to move up and down.

If there is a problem that is sometimes suggested that some of the clubs are too close together then (as much as I personally detest the idea) relocating may be a good financial option.

[sweaty craiq]

The problem with RL and a lot of its fans is that if more cash is needed they expect someone to give it them and not go and earn it/ find it

[Konkrete]

Clearly the problem is money. Both for the ability to run a club off the field and to recruit quality players.

If a SL club doesn't run itself in a way that is attractive to sponsors/fans etc. And a championship club does then they should be able to move up and down.

If there is a problem that is sometimes suggested that some of the clubs are too close together then (as much as I personally detest the idea) relocating may be a good financial option.

 

Indeed.  Buy it or build it.  If more clubs spent more time producing players rather than buying them like jars of vegemite off the shelf then we'd all be better off.  Unfortunately the system that we have, quite predictably, lends itself to short-termism.

 

Having now had the pre-pre-season we are about to enter into the pre-season - ie the last 7/8 regular round matches, before we start the season proper - ie the eights.  There will be a rake of signings across the competition and young home grown players will be sacrificed in the name of progress.

[GeordieSaint]

Ben Evans now on loan at Leigh... how many players do they need? Are there injury issues?

[Scubby]

 

All the evidence and all the opinion of those who run these things and know the finances (and in Hudgell's case provides the finances to his club) came nowhere near 16 good sir.

 

 

Blimey Craiq

 

Hudgell said 10

 

Scubby says 16

 

You and Tommy say 20

 

If you read my post then I said what do the RFL want not what I want. At the moment, we could be heading towards 15/16 clubs paying the full SL salary cap within a couple of years (I am including Toulouse, Leigh, Bradford in there) with the most diluted playing strength this country has had in the last 10-20 years. I really don't have a clue what their vision is? I'm not sure they do either.

[sweaty craiq]

Ben Evans now on loan at Leigh... how many players do they need? Are there injury issues?

3 suspended one on loan and 3 long term injuries would have depleted the pack

[phiggins]

Ben Evans now on loan at Leigh... how many players do they need? Are there injury issues?

 

Well, we wont be seeing Hock and Acton for a while. Moimoi just recovering from a pretty serious illness and Paterson has been out injured for a while now.

[Oxford]

If you'd read my post                    (Changed a bit to point the stick in the right direction)

I think you should've stopped there Scubby I've come to the conclusion he never does!

[GeordieSaint]

3 suspended one on loan and 3 long term injuries would have depleted the pack

 

Understood - how big is the first team squad and is there any Academy underpinning the first team squad? Genuinely don't know hence the question.

[Oxford]

Well, we wont be seeing Hock and Acton for a while. Moimoi just recovering from a pretty serious illness and Paterson has been out injured for a while now.

Maybe that's why Leigh are spending up to the cap?