Lets face it

[Phil Loxton]

I've been to Rugby Union games also Robin locally. To be honest Sharlston have had more spectators watching them play league.

[Robin Evans]

Id love to see leeds v wakey with an 84k crowd like saracens and northampton have achieved

We wouldnt get that for gb v aus if we gave tickets away.

[Phil Loxton]

When do you reckon a superleague game will get an 80k attendance?

At least 2 gates of 40k last season and i only looked at 6 weeks worth of attendances...

We cant get 80k for a full weekend when all our clubs play each other over 2 days.... many being derbies

The 40.029 crowds last season was a special double header. They also fill Twickenham for special one off games.Newcastle . London Irish. Sale and Saracens for example average crowds of between 5500 and 9000. But as I said they are marginally better than our Super League because of the geographics.It is a popular sport that has had to tweak it's rules to interest TV viewers. Who would recognise Rugby League from when I started watching in 1963 to the present day?. Times move on and as you say instead of competing we should be looking at our own game and getting the game under one umbrella instead of alienating our own divisions.

[Robin Evans]

Oh absolutely. Ours is a different sport.

We enjoy it and i want it to be the best it can be.

I don't buy into the notion that we are handicapped by the RFU in the 21st century. That level of paranoia is a handicap in itself.

You can argue, as colin often does, that the damage was done decades prior to union's professionisation so that they don't have to care about league anylonger.

But the world moves on.

I could make many sociopolitical observations/analogies throughout the world where peoples who have suffered greatly over the decades but have found the strength to leave the past behind and move forrad. League must do the same.

[knottla]

I think it's interesting that the England RU coach has approached top RL coaches in Australia, so that he can adapt some RL structures to the England RU game plan, and at the moment it seems to be working for him. So the question has to be asked if an RU coach can go down under and improve his team. What have the England RL coaches achieved by either coming from Australia or supposedly going and learning new techniques and structures?

[Robin Evans]

Sharing knowledge is vital for progression knottla... intersport collabpration contributing to making what British cycling what it now is.

[oldrover]

i worked on both the new east and west stands at twickenham, (my mate had a pee in the royal box) and i have to say ,they have a fantastic set up. RL can only dream of owning a top quality stadium like that. makes us look like a right tuppence ha'penny operation.

[marklaspalmas]

Of course we look like a tuppence ha'penny operation compared to a sport that strove for 100 years to strangle the life out of ours. Yes, history is in the past. Yes, we need to move on and look after ourselves. But come on. There is no competitive level playing field that both sports are competing in. The RFU is not better than the RFL. They've just enjoyed the advantages of having access to all the privilege, media coverage, sponsorship money that RL can only dream of having been denied it by UNion cronies for decades. Even the good old BBC haven't moved on their League v Union attitude in 90 years of existence.

 

Wath sounds a decent set up. Tony Price must be chuffed. But it's centrally funded by the cashed up RFU. Don't tell me any RL club couldn't do the same with the same brass swilling about the sport.

 

League's continued existence in itself is remarkable. How many Union journo's smugly predicted its disappearance in 1995 went Union "went pro" (I hate that phrase. They'd been paid for ages, just illegally and hypocritcally).

 

As for Union continuing to poach players and coaches from RL that shows you where they see their future. In a sport that will look a lot like league. Basic economics dictates that, quite rightly, league individuals will choose to make more money in RU. And if that weakens our psort along the way, so much the better for RU.

 

Im sure everyone in RU would be delighted to declare the inter-code conflict over and themsleves the convincing winners. Not for me. Not by a long way.

[tuutaisrambo]

The RFU is by far the richest and most powerful Union with the biggest player pool..............they should be beating everyone including the All Blacks.

 

Super league is miles behind the NRL and the RFL are miles behind Australia.

 

Personally the only way i see us beating a full strength Kangaroo team in the next 10 years is more english players go over there to play NRL.

 

In RL more than any other sport the best team nearly always wins and we aren't as good as them.  This is RL's biggest weakness.....unless teams are evenly matched it's a predictable sport.

 

As for Union i find it a bit boring but we are too obsessed with exciting play in RL..............you will find most fans are paying for the experience, facilities, atmosphere and most importantly to see their side win.........i doubt Twickenham is full of purists frustrated cos there isn't enough 'quick ball' they are all there to drink expensive beer, have a good sing song and hopefully watch their team win.

 

Same goes for football.

[Robin Evans]

Mark... in the 50s league was arguably much bigger than union in uk. League attracted huge crowds, way bigger than union could imagine. Hapless management of our game contributed as much to our own demise if not more than owt union could do to us.

Since the 90s and tv bidding wars came in, the popularity of union massively increased as did the tv appeal....

As did league... but the growth couldnt be sustained like unions could.

I think its a facile argument to blame union 100 years of "strangling the life" out of our game when for much of that time league well surpassed it for numbers through the gates.

[marklaspalmas]

Mark... in the 50s league was arguably much bigger than union in uk. League attracted huge crowds, way bigger than union could imagine. Hapless management of our game contributed as much to our own demise if not more than owt union could do to us.

Since the 90s and tv bidding wars came in, the popularity of union massively increased as did the tv appeal....

As did league... but the growth couldnt be sustained like unions could.

I think its a facile argument to blame union 100 years of "strangling the life" out of our game when for much of that time league well surpassed it for numbers through the gates.

 

That's not how the history of the two sports has developed at all.

 

Rugby League was always a club game, and from day 1 needed to attract fans through the turnstiles to make it pay. Hence all the rules changes (15 to 13, no line outs, play-the-ball) all of which make our sport much more attractive to the spectator. Union didn't give two hoots for this. It was primarily a social sport watched by two men and a dog. However, as the establishment sport played by the moneyed class, the public schools, the forces, the Universities , etc. they always enjoyed a media profile disproportionate to the number of fans coming in through the gates.

 

League's brief post war attendances boom, enjoyed by ALL sports post 1945, is irrelevant here and certainly no indicator of league getting anywhere near Union in terms of public consciousness or access to money and media profile. It was that funny rugby played by grimy northerners in flat caps.

 

When it comes therefore to internationals, big events, column inches in the press and fawning TV commentators of course they blow us out of the water. COmparing Sarries double headers at Wembley to Wakey v Leeds is to fail to take into account the context in which these events have been viewed for over a century. It's bloody hard work to overcome prejudices.

 

Yes, we know about the myopia and narrow-mindedness that undoubtedly have pervaded league administration & management through the ages. However, that needs to be set against the times when moves for RL expansion have been met with such rabid intolerance, bigotry and ignorance from people involved in the other code. Colin's story of petty-minded officaldom is just one of thousands and thousands.

 

We had a chance to expand the game immediately in 1895 but understandably went for consolidation and the chnace was lost. South Wales was one particular area crying out socially and economically for rugby league, but once again there Union's hypocrisy in turning a blind eye to shamateurism knew no bounds when it suited them.

 

Yes, we should be looking at ourselves. Yes, the past is the past. Yes, the future is the future. But let's not go about pretending anything that Union folk got up to in the past trying to crush rugby league is now ok, and let bygones by bygones. No way jose.

[Blue Pike]

Listen all I started this post wanting to know in a simpje couple of sentances why the Rugby Union national team is the best national side of all codes .This has developed into a deep boring drawn out laborious frustrating ping pong match between stubborn never back down passionate people .Look we get the point .Lets put this post to bed and stop the arguing .Lets move on .

[DOGFATHER]

Simple answer is union is/was played at most schools. League was never a consideration at mine or most schools, I'm not from down south either, I was brought up in the heartland of league country and there was no exposure at school, so unless you were introduced to it by someone who plays or is involved there is no exposure to RL at all. If there is so little exposure in the heartlands you can bet there is sod all in the none league areas. Therefore most peoples only exposure to rugby is union, they think of rugby, they automatically think union. More people then play it, therefore there is a bigger talent pool to pick from, more money, better standards, more demamd.

We are also light-years behind RU at club level. No matter how good, bad or old you are, you could always find a union team to play for. Lots run 4+ open age teams as well as veterans and junior teams. They, on the whole, have much better facilities than most of there league counterparts. Most are community clubs with teams training most nights of the week, therefore the bar is open with sports on TV for parents to watch whilst there kids are at training and they are selling drinks, food etc. Which all helps to swell the coffers.

As lots have 4 teams, that means every weekend there are at least 60-70 players (4 teams at the ground every weekend) plus a few spectators in the bar having a drink after the game, maybe watching an international on TV too and having more than one or two social pints. Then the home teams who were playing away, will come back home to finish the night off. They will often bring partners, friends and parents etc. Which means the bar is taking very good money every week, unlike league where you might only get people in once a fortnight, if they do have a bar. Because people are socialising there every week, there is a buzz created about the place and people from outside of the game are attracted to it, maybe just for the social side, but they are often turned in to fans over time.

I played for 3 different league teams growing up from under 9s to 17s, none of them had a bar and only one had proper changing rooms with showers. I also played for 4 union clubs during the same timeframe, all had excellent facilities and several pitches with floodlights. They also put food on after every game, even for all the junior teams. At league you went home and met up with lads at a local pub to compare bruises after showering at home.

All of the union clubs had clear pathways to open age teams, at league we all just moved on elsewhere, as the open age team was a closed shop. Twickenham always sold out because every club, no matter how small was allocated tickets that they had to sell, it wasn't optional, it was your duty as being part of the RU umbrella. They have sold out internationals for years on that premise, and now the tickets are in demand and they can charge what they want, because they have created a demand for them; a prestige factor because they are always sell outs, it makes you feel privileged to be there, like you are lucky to get a ticket. RL could not sell out, if we held cup finals in phone boxes.

We can learn a lot from them. If only it was better to watch and less complicated...

As the earlier post states our game has degenerated in to a 5 drives and a kick bore-a-thon for the most part, ever since this dominance and Wrestling came in to the game. I'd love to see us go back to refs shouting held as soon as momentum has stopped, like it used to be in the 90s.

[Blue Pike]

Thanks for that.Both my sons play for Pontefract R.U.F.C and I see on match days the very experience that you pointed out.

[Steve Slater]

Some very good points over the last day or two, especially about the social element, which is practically non-existent in League. Even the smallest of Union clubs seem to have excellent facilities and a good bar and clubhouse that even makes money, and most of them have annual trips to Twickenham in the same way that many pubs and WMC's from the heartlands used to run annual trips to Wembley. I actually worked with quite a few from the Leeds area who took their whole family on the Working Men's Club Wembley weekend trip every year. Many of their wives and kids didn't even go to the game. Yet they would never go watch Leeds, Hunslet or Bramley, and at the same time grounds were less than half full when GB played the Aussies. On the other side of the coin practically every RU club in the country were organizing trips to Twickenham, so their international games were always a sell-out and generated a far greater media appeal.

Things are getting better though, some amateur RL clubs now have good facilities though the bars are closed most of the week. The social side of the game needs to grow, and if the RFL wants to expand the game it should be helping with facilities for clubs outside the heartlands. Union has gone like American Football, there are very few positions you can play unless you're six foot six and eighteen stone, so we should be enticing talented players (and youngsters) who don't fit the mould for Union to try their hand at League, but once they come we need better clubhouse facilities to develop a family atmosphere which would encourage them to bring friends and family to social events.

[Robin Evans]

Those are my perceptions about the union clubs i have played at and visit.

Wath is packed with players and ex players on a weekend.

As stated earlier, there is a greater sense of community in union. Something that players fans and officials buy into that isn't common in league.

I just don't buy into that all being as a result of union marginalisation.

[marklaspalmas]

If the debate has moved on to the superiority of Union social clubs over League, I'll take my bow. Not sure how that leads to the global domination of one code over another, but still.

 

However, good to deabte something different for a change. Cheers Robin

 

Sorry (not really) to have been "boring drawn out laborious frustrating". I find it interesting. Much more interesting than watching the England RU team playing.

[Robin Evans]

[jamescolin]

Good debate. Excellent points from both angles. But as Joe E. Lewis said: It doesn't matter if your rich or poor, as long as you've got money. Also the art of being wise is knowing what to overlook.

[Ovenden Grunt]

Sounds to me like the comparison between Super League and the Chamionship - The elite are just as bad in Rugby League.

Totally agree with that. RL is, unfortunately,run by imbeciles.

[The Grinder]

Robin,

 

How does the fact that London Welsh have just gone into liquidation (link here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38241956) who are at our equivalent level  with crowds of 400 match up with you experiences? Especially when it is very recently that they where in the premiership (equivalent of SL).

 

Strikes me that in Union there are some big clubs (as there are in League) that can manage 10k+ crowds and then there are the rest. Therefore at club level there does not appear to be much difference.

 

However at international level we are worlds apart. This for me is in part because of the media and the associated bigotry, but has a lot to do with the inability of the RFL to promote it's self.

[Robin Evans]

Rotherham are/have been towing too. But they progressed to a premiership club from a club i used to play against!!!

They had a clear pathway from a to b...something the rfl until 2 years ago prohibited and after hkr relegation the bleating from sl clubs suggests they may do so again.

They over extended in the premiership.

Talking to players at rotherham im advised the club has taken steps to correct it financial position and are happy to be the best they can be.

The club makes money. It runs 5 teams plus every age group at juniors and has an all inclusive social set up.

At 3.80 for a pint of IPA they centainly know how to part money from their punters.

Some clubs, like all businesses can struggle.

Your last sentence is bang on Dave

[DOGFATHER]

If the debate has moved on to the superiority of Union social clubs over League, I'll take my bow. Not sure how that leads to the global domination of one code over another, but still.

However, good to deabte something different for a change. Cheers Robin

Sorry (not really) to have been "boring drawn out laborious frustrating". I find it interesting. Much more interesting than watching the England RU team playing.

I think the point is, Union is very much a social game at lower club level. The top levels are pretty competitive, but as you go down the rankings, the game is played with more of a fun element to it. I never really felt that playing league. All of the league sides I played for, or against played the game as hard as they could and to win.

Its difficult to explain, but there were guys well in to there 50s still playing union when I finally retired at 36, and although you'd tackle these old timers, there was kind of an unwritten rule that you would not fly in at them like you would say a 20 year old, who you'd try to smash in every tackle like you would playing league. I couldnt image playing league in that spirit. It was played very much in the spirit of we want to win, but let's not go mad, we've all got work on Monday. I don't want to go to my meetings with a shiner etc.

I never really found that at league, it was always much more of win at all costs mentality.

Union is very much built around the social side imo, I think it is fair to say most union players outside of the top flight play for fun, commeradery you get from team games, a bit of exercise and a good excuse to have a drink with your mates on the weekend. I'm pretty sure the majority of union players and fans don't really understand all of the rules, I played for years and I'm still baffled by half of the decisions made, but that is not necessarily what people watch it for. It is a social event rather than just a game. As it is more inclusive, more people take part in it. Therefore it is more popular, the more popular, the better opportunity for sponsorship etc. That leads to more money in the game which then attracts the top talent. That is why it has overtaken league imo.

I also don't think we have helped ourselves by slowing the PTB down. Lots of the skills required to exploit broken play have gone from RL because of this slowing down. That is predominantly why we don't have many good flair players like centre's or halfbacks in the country, there isn't the opportunity to develop the skills required whilst playing the game as it stands.

[Monkeymagic22]

And rise up the big money man to hybrid the game for the big money backer that is commonly known as SKY. What goes around comes around and perhaps not yet but I believe the two codes will be as one again in the future. I love FEV rather than love where our sport as gone. Up the Rovers.

[Monkeymagic22]

To be fair it's not just Sky, BT pump millions into Union. Not sure why either of the codes would want to combine to be honest.