Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Saint Toppy

Our new position in the EU

Recommended Posts

33 minutes ago, Trojan said:

I disagree with this profoundly.  The referendum campaign by the Remain faction was a mess.  Not enough people on the remain side were really interested, they (like me) possibly didn't bother to vote because they couldn't believe that we'd vote for something that was so clearly wrong.   Plus of course the young people who didn't vote and  (mistakenly) awoke last spring and flocked to Labour in the belief that Corbyn would pull the chestnuts out of the fire.  I genuinely think another vote is necessary.  If we don't there are going to be a  lot of people who are considerably poorer than they are now in 5-10 years time.

Well, people who chose not to vote made their choice.  They had the chance to vote.  Being presumptuous about the electorate is no defence IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Saintslass said:

Well, people who chose not to vote made their choice.  They had the chance to vote.  Being presumptuous about the electorate is no defence IMO.

But asking them again, to make sure is not presumptuous at all. Especially on such an irrevocable matter,


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Bob8 said:

The great strength of democracy is that it gives credibility to a decision.  There is no more straight forward democracy than a referendum.  To be seen to overturn it early would seem extremely undemocratic.

Have you ever read Anthony Trollope's "The Warden?"  Twelve men who are retired. live in comfort and security in alms houses in the cathedral close, looked after the by the warden Dr. Septimus Harding.   For this he is paid handsomely.  A reformer discovers that the warden is not entitled to the amount he is drawing, and winds up the pensioners to petition for their fair share.  They were happy, they lived in a happy community.  But because of this interloper their happiness is eventually destroyed. The warden who didn't know he wasn't entitled to the money, it having been a tradition gong back centuries, resigns and the community is destroyed.  I feel this mirrors our attitude in this country to the EU.  To quote Ral Donner "You don't know what you've got until you lose it"

 


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Saintslass said:

You said 'didn't vote' rather than 'couldn't vote'.  Not being old enough at the time of the vote is something we all experience at some point.  Obviously they can air their opinion but that doesn't mean we change anything because of that opinion. The vote was in 2016.  It is simply the nature of human society that there will always be some people not old enough to vote.

Exactly.

They can start campaigning now for another vote - like the people who couldn't vote in the 1970s but who were there before the doors opened this time round.

Nobody could have any problem with that.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Exactly.

They can start campaigning now for another vote - like the people who couldn't vote in the 1970s but who were there before the doors opened this time round.

Nobody could have any problem with that.

TBH I'd have been happier to be prevented from voting on this issue which will have long term effects on our country.  I was 69 at the time, I hope to be around for the medium term, but am unlikely to be around for the long term, I thought my generation should have been excluded from the electorate on this issue.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Bob8 said:

The great strength of democracy is that it gives credibility to a decision.  There is no more straight forward democracy than a referendum.  To be seen to overturn it early would seem extremely undemocratic.

Rule by plebiscite is crude, one dimensional, subverts representative democracy, and dangerous. 

Because something is straightforward it doesn't mean it's valid. 

The point of true democracy is that decisions can be overturned. Otherwise laws would never change. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Trojan said:

TBH I'd have been happier to be prevented from voting on this issue which will have long term effects on our country.  I was 69 at the time, I hope to be around for the medium term, but am unlikely to be around for the long term, I thought my generation should have been excluded from the electorate on this issue.

Tough!  We respect your generation, like it or not! :P 

1 minute ago, Tongs ya bas said:

Rule by plebiscite is crude, one dimensional, subverts representative democracy, and dangerous. 

Because something is straightforward it doesn't mean it's valid. 

The point of true democracy is that decisions can be overturned. Otherwise laws would never change. 

Crude blunt instruments can also carry a lot of weight.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Bob8 said:

Tough!  We respect your generation, like it or not! :P 

Crude blunt instruments can also carry a lot of weight.

Worryingly, yes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Trojan said:

But asking them again, to make sure is not presumptuous at all. Especially on such an irrevocable matter,

But you were talking about those who chose not to vote (that's their decision and they can't subsequently expect another chance just because they are experiencing regret over their decision) and those who were not able to (which happens to us all at some time - nothing that can be done about that).  

The vote has taken place, it was legal and legitimate and attracted the biggest turnout ever in British politics.  That you don't like the outcome is not the fault of the vote but is just the way things go.  There is always a loser in a vote.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

But you were talking about those who chose not to vote (that's their decision and they can't subsequently expect another chance just because they are experiencing regret over their decision) and those who were not able to (which happens to us all at some time - nothing that can be done about that).  

The vote has taken place, it was legal and legitimate and attracted the biggest turnout ever in British politics.  That you don't like the outcome is not the fault of the vote but is just the way things go.  There is always a loser in a vote.

I suspect you wouldn't have said that had the vote gone the other way, on such a small margin of victory.  It has nothing to do with "it's not fair" and everything to do with what's best for our country.  We've dipped our toe into the post Brexit world and it looks like a cold, cold place.  Surely thinking again can't possibly be wrong. 


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Trojan said:

I suspect you wouldn't have said that had the vote gone the other way, on such a small margin of victory.  It has nothing to do with "it's not fair" and everything to do with what's best for our country.  We've dipped our toe into the post Brexit world and it looks like a cold, cold place.  Surely thinking again can't possibly be wrong. 

I've waited all my adult life for the chance to vote in a referendum about the EU.  That's a few decades.  I was convinced Leave would lose - and I said so on these boards at the time - and so I was utterly astounded when Leave won.  I had already accepted that Leave had lost so you don't know what you are talking about as far as I'm concerned.

We thought again.  The gap between thoughts was over 40 years.  So if you want to think again in 40 years then that's fine by me.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Trojan said:

The problem is that we had such a good deal from the EU achieved by Thatcher that Cameron was unable to go to Europe and improve on it. He had nothing to sell except, things will get worse if we leave.  And not enough people believed him.

Not enough people believed a Tory PM, whatever next?

This was such a decisive, crucial and long term decision that more so than an election the old adage about old people cocking it up for those who come after them seems the most accurate description.

 


 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Oxford said:

Not enough people believed a Tory PM, whatever next?

This was such a decisive, crucial and long term decision that more so than an election the old adage about old people cocking it up for those who come after them seems the most accurate description.

 

I hate ageism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Saintslass said:

I hate ageism.

Indeed.

But, apparently Oxford is a lot older than we assumed.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎07‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 3:56 PM, Shadow said:

If you can get Saintslass to agree with you on EFTA then I'll be surprised.
This illustrates the problem with Brexit, there are so many flavours of leave voter now from the EFTA supporting to the break all ties and walk away now brigade that whatever the outcome it will lead to a segment of supporters being dissatisfied with the result. This in addition to the 48% that wanted to stay in the EU.

But thats no different to the 48% of remainers who are also split on their vision of the EU. There are those who wanted to retain the 'status quo' or remain in the EU but with some powers handed back to individual members, while at the other end of the scale there are those who want full membership with adoption of the Euro and Britain to be part of an eventual Federal Europe. The latter's vision is probably just an unpalateable to the majority of people as that of the vision of the extreem Brexiteer's.


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Saintslass said:

I've waited all my adult life for the chance to vote in a referendum about the EU.  That's a few decades.  I was convinced Leave would lose - and I said so on these boards at the time - and so I was utterly astounded when Leave won.  I had already accepted that Leave had lost so you don't know what you are talking about as far as I'm concerned.

We thought again.  The gap between thoughts was over 40 years.  So if you want to think again in 40 years then that's fine by me.

Well when we're all struggling on poverty wages, and freezing in winter, and unable to afford to holiday anywhere, you'll have the satisfaction of being able to say "I caused all this!"


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Trojan said:

Well when we're all struggling on poverty wages, and freezing in winter, and unable to afford to holiday anywhere, you'll have the satisfaction of being able to say "I caused all this!"

I'll be fine.

Does that help?


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Bob8 said:

I'll be fine.

Does that help?

not really, what about the rest of us?


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

But thats no different to the 48% of remainers who are also split on their vision of the EU. There are those who wanted to retain the 'status quo' or remain in the EU but with some powers handed back to individual members, while at the other end of the scale there are those who want full membership with adoption of the Euro and Britain to be part of an eventual Federal Europe. The latter's vision is probably just an unpalateable to the majority of people as that of the vision of the extreem Brexiteer's.

It would be no different if the vote had gone to stay and we were now heading for full integration of Europe with immediate membership of the Euro however it didn't so your point is irrelevant and could be seen as an attempt to create a false equivalence.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyway, any deal to try and de-rail the Brexit process seems to have been scuppered by the Dear Leader, who has refused an invitation from the other anti Brexit parties in Parliament to discuss ways and means of at least softening the blow,


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Trojan said:

not really, what about the rest of us?

Meh.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The UK government has set aside £3bn contingency for a no deal Brexit.

The UK government is consulting lawyers about the EU planning for a no deal Brexit.

https://www.ft.com/content/7306b972-f49a-11e7-88f7-5465a6ce1a00


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bob8 said:

Indeed.

But, apparently Oxford is a lot older than we assumed.

The age of a person spouting ageism is irrelevant.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bob8 said:

I'll be fine.

Does that help?

Well as a supporter of Brexit i'd like to second Bob's point

Since the vote i've elected to change companies, have seen my wage rise by approx 20% and am very much looking forward to my 2 weeks in the Carribean this year ;)

  • Like 1

Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...