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Tongs ya bas

Attitudes to Toronto in today's League Express

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19 minutes ago, Moc said:

Well run clubs shouldnt be depending on away following - as a business model that is set up to failure

It's just not true,  for nearly 20 years the close proximity between Bradford and Leeds fuellled big crowds at both fixtures. Hull/HKR the same, Wigan/Saints, Cas/Wakey, etc.

This is a perfectly legitimate business model that is set up to succeed and has succeeded with big crowds at these derbies year after year. It has not failed.

Where it has failed is the drop in attendances occuring due to Bulls and Rovers relegation.

I find it astounding the reverse parochialism of the expansionists who want to ensure that existing customers of the game should be excluded from watching RL because they are not "home supporters"

So what should the business model be? One club in Hull, One in Calder, One in Manchester one in west lancs, one in bradhuddersfax and one in Leeds then one club in France (no derbies remember) and five clubs in North america?

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1 hour ago, Copa said:

I've never heard once Canberra grumble about away fans. Same for Townsville and a few other teams.

Fill your ground with your own people and you'll do well.

 

1 hour ago, DOGFATHER said:

They shouldn't have to, but my bet would be, all but about 6 clubs in the British game are almost totally dependent on away support. The problem is, if you just have a game consisting of teams that are "well run" and do not have to rely on away support, then those 6 clubs would be playing each other every couple of weeks and how boring would that be?

Don't forget, one of those 6 will always finish bottom of the pile and so wil become, as the eloquent poster above points out, a "bottom feeder" before long. 

The problem with the game, is the disparity between the have's and have not's. Odd teams have broken in to the elite, (Castleford) maybe because the salary cap has been more closely administered in the last couple of years, so they could compete on a level playing field with the likes of Leeds, but with the introduction of the new increased marquee signings, that gap will only widen again.

And who's fault is it that the have nots are the have nots? Today's League Express with Martyn Sadler's depressing article reinforced with those mind numbing letters were a depressing encapsulation of a vociferous and often influential aspect of rugby league culture. Anybody wanting to buy into the most exciting, intellectually stimulating sport there is must wonder what the hell they have got mixed up with when they scratch not that far below the surface. Last weekend over 7,000 people had a fantastic time at a rugby league game: the poor naive fools

Edited by Tongs ya bas
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3 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Then this should have been made crystal clear to David Argyle BEFORE the formation of Toronto Wolfpack.

Perhaps it was, but I sincerely doubt it.

To invite a new franchise into the pyramid, as the RFL did, only to then later say (after massive financial investment) "Oh, and by the way, you can't get into the top division' is immoral. And, as I said, I really don't see David Argyle taking it laying down - he seems like the kinda guy who gets his way on things. I'd expect it to be tested through the Courts, at the very least...

And to use the excuse about away fans (which is the only issue mentioned) is ridiculous. At no stage would anybody ever have thought that Toronto were going to bring away fans. It's not like the SL chairman have suddenly realised that TW won't bring away fans - any fool could work that one out whilst Toronto were at the planning stage.

So what's changed now to make this suddenly be mentioned?

Ask London Skolars how many away fans TW brought when Skolars posted their highest regular season crowd (outside of the Challenge Cup night) in their history earlier this year? Where did these curious souls come from? And why?

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London Broncos and Toulouse and Catalans won't/don't bring many away fans, maybe we should exclude those from Super League too?  

Edited by Saint 1
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Problem we have is too many people in UK rugby league only think about the next week

parksider might be right in the short term, but it's a very short sighted view 

But in the long term what if league really takes off, what if we continue to see 6 pages about Toronto in major magazines such as Esquire, what if we attract new sponsors to the game with the new international exposure

 

 

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1 minute ago, Saint 1 said:

London Broncos and Toulouse and Catalans won't/don't bring many away fans, maybe we should exclude those from Super League too?  

There are many who would go along with that enthusiastically

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1 minute ago, Scubby said:

Ask London Skolars how many away fans TW brought when Skolars posted their highest regular season crowd (outside of the Challenge Cup night) in their history earlier this year? Where did these curious souls come from? And why?

Yes, that's the other interesting aspect Scubby.

Skolars managed to leverage TW to add 1000 people to their usual crowd figure. With clever marketing, I would imagine that SL clubs could do something similar, which would mitigate - wholly or partially - the lack of travelling away fans.

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10 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Then this should have been made crystal clear to David Argyle BEFORE the formation of Toronto Wolfpack.

Perhaps it was, but I sincerely doubt it.

And to use the excuse about away fans (which is the only issue mentioned) is ridiculous. At no stage would anybody ever have thought that Toronto were going to bring away fans. It's not like the SL chairman have suddenly realised that TW won't bring away fans - any fool could work that one out whilst Toronto were at the planning stage.

So what's changed now to make this suddenly be mentioned?

Paul,

The RFL invited Toronto to the Championship. There is no evidence at all Superleague ever sanctioned this and no reason for them to do this. They only run SL.

The question arises because Argyle has tried to buy his way into SL. Of course Argyle must have known SL has the right to refuse clubs. He's the one taken the chance on bidding to take over Leigh and Widnes.

He's certainly got a good result if several SL clubs actually did want them in. It's a start and minds can be changed.

Edited by The Parksider

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12 minutes ago, Copa said:

I've never heard once Canberra grumble about away fans. Same for Townsville and a few other teams.

Fill your ground with your own people and you'll do well.

Exactly, the Cowboys and Raiders (as well as the rest of the teams) realise that by having a huge television audience they are able to make up for and exceed the finances lost by having less travelling support by having big sponsorship. Though I must say going to a packed game with home and away fans is electric for atmosphere and can be a big draw.

SL needs to be recognisable as a brand in itself and have a good number of recognisable brands in the form of clubs and sponsors associated with it. Toronto Wolfpack are part of that future. SL can have room for the likes of Castleford and Leigh for example, just as the premier league has space for Burnley and Bournemouth, but in the modern world it cannot afford to be dominated by such clubs (not on the field but in terms of a high majority of the league).

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Let's put some numbers against it. Say Toronto replace a club who takes 1000 fans to other games that means a lost income of say £20k to a club not an insignifanct amount of money on its own but when measured against a £5M-£10M turnover, which most of SL achieve I believe, it shouldn't be critical. 

Edited by Spidey
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12 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I see you've also ignored my second point. How can clubs afford a salary cap increase but can't afford to lose away fans for one fixture?

You've twisted it. Not intentionally but.......

Bulls and HKR take away fans to ALL fixtures

Toronto and Catalans take NO away fans to ANY of their away fixtures.

The lost revenue to Superleague is massive.

With Toronto giving nothing back

Edited by The Parksider

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Just now, The Parksider said:

You've twisted it. Not intentionally but.......

Bulls and HKR take away fans to ALL fixtures

Toronto and Catalans take NO away fans to all their away fixtures.

The lost revenue is massive.

I've outlined the numbers in another post. It's not massive to individual clubs

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10 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

It's just not true,  for nearly 20 years the close proximity between Bradford and Leeds fuellled big crowds at both fixtures. Hull/HKR the same, Wigan/Saints, Cas/Wakey, etc.

This is a perfectly legitimate business model that is set up to succeed and has succeeded with big crowds at these derbies year after year. It has not failed.

Where it has failed is the drop in attendances occuring due to Bulls and Rovers relegation.

I find it astounding the reverse parochialism of the expansionists who want to ensure that existing customers of the game should be excluded from watching RL because they are not "home supporters"

So what should the business model be? One club in Hull, One in Calder, One in Manchester one in west lancs, one in bradhuddersfax and one in Leeds then one club in France (no derbies remember) and five clubs in North america?

This the same Wakey that have nearly gone under 2/3 times?

Well run clubs dont need to depend on away fans - FACT

 

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7 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Paul,

The RFL invited Toronto to the Championship. There is no evidence at all Superleague ever sanctioned this and no reason for them to do this. They only run SL.

The question arises because Argyle has tried to buy his way into SL. Of course Argyle must have known SL has the right to refuse clubs. He's the one taken the chance on bidding to take over Leigh and Widnes.

He's certainly got a good result if several SL clubs actually did want them in.

But why wouldn't they want them in? Why wouldn't they want to be involved in growing the sport that they all love?

Further up the page you purport that the current model is a success. How do you measure that? Crowds have been static/declining for years and what is that down to? How many times can you watch Leeds V Bradford, or Wigan V Saints and still be totally excited by the prospect? Your supposed successful business model has brought little or no growth in RL, so how is that successful? You will find very few businessmen who would accept the status quo is success.

The entry of Catalans into SL was a major step forward, and in my opinion has only become a little stale now due to the fact that it wasn't followed up quickly with the introduction of two or three other expansion teams. If Toronto are going to be the next, then let's get it on.

To claim we shouldn't be canvassing for them due to the fact that they won't bring any away fans is ridiculous. If the North American TV market can be cracked, then we have access to the richest sports networks on Earth.

Edited by Jim Prendle
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4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Let's put some numbers against it. Say Toronto replace a club who takes 1000 fans to other games that means a lost income of say £20k to a club not an insignifanct amount of money on its own but when measured against a £5M-£10M turnover, which most of SL achieve I believe, it shouldn't be critical. 

It works both ways.

If Toronto lose Superleague away fans at all their games here, then why let them in unless they make that revenue up in other ways.

You have had to admit Toronto lose SL money, where do Toronto themselves make up that money??

Argyle can easily buy a couple of thousand empty seats at away games to do this, but has he offered it?

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1 minute ago, The Parksider said:

It works both ways.

If Toronto lose Superleague away fans at all their games here, then why let them in unless they make that revenue up in other ways.

You have had to admit Toronto lose SL money, where do Toronto themselves make up that money??

Argyle can easily buy a couple of thousand empty seats at away games to do this, but has he offered it?

Toronto aren't in SL, so how do they lose the SL clubs money?

 

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Just now, The Parksider said:

It works both ways.

If Toronto lose Superleague away fans at all their games here, then why let them in unless they make that revenue up in other ways.

You have had to admit Toronto lose SL money, where do Toronto themselves make up that money??

Argyle can easily buy a couple of thousand empty seats at away games to do this, but has he offered it?

That's up to Toronto to manage and a different point that you raised.

Your argument is other clubs lose income with Torontos inclusion, I've highlighted that really it's not much of an impact to individual clubs, here's another example:

Leeds lose a Bradford fixture in favour of Toronto. 5k Bradford fans means circa £100k revenue for Leeds, they turnover in excess of £10M per year so it's only 1% of their total income - they can cope with this 

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2 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

But why wouldn't they want them in? Why wouldn't they want to be involved in growing the sport that they all love?

If the North American TV market can be cracked, then we have access to the richest sports networks on Earth.

Sorry Jim have to go. Back later.

I think SL are not in a position to take big risks on the promise of Jam tomorrow so their policy to Toulouse and Toronto will be bring us a TV deal first

I think that is fair, and it protects SL from the big costs of accommodating expansion.

Remember SL is precariously financed, last contract saw a £68M deficit and financial disaster all the posters above want to conveniently forget.

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14 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

London Broncos and Toulouse and Catalans won't/don't bring many away fans, maybe we should exclude those from Super League too?  

There may be a point in time, when clubs like these should break way and form their own league, especially with a few more North American ventures involved. Leave the M62 SL to itself.

Problem with the SL is that there are only about 6 "Super" teams and 3-4 leaching teams who offer (almost) no fans, or commercial contribution to the league. They cannot afford change things.

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Just now, The Parksider said:

Paul,

The RFL invited Toronto to the Championship. There is no evidence at all Superleague ever sanctioned this and no reason for them to do this. They only run SL.

The question arises because Argyle has tried to buy his way into SL. Of course Argyle must have known SL has the right to refuse clubs. He's the one taken the chance on bidding to take over Leigh and Widnes.

He's certainly got a good result if several SL clubs actually did want them in.

All but one of the then 39 pro clubs voted to admit Toronto Wolfpack to the RFL structure. They had the right to refuse them then, as 1 club exercised their right to vote for. To virtually everyone in the whole world outside of RL and North Korea, once your in a league pyramid, you're as valued a member as all your opposition and should be treated as fairly as everyone else. The fact that the points the OP raises over not being 'allowed in' can even be posed is a disgusting insult to sport and makes me ashamed to be an RL supporter.

Interestingly, would Coventry, or Hunslet, or Workington, or North Wales be denied admittance to SL also on the 'no away fans' basis? Others have mentioned London Broncos.

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1 minute ago, Spidey said:

Leeds lose a Bradford fixture in favour of Toronto. 5k Bradford fans means circa £100k revenue for Leeds, they turnover in excess of £10M per year so it's only 1% of their total income - they can cope with this 

And let's say Toronto make a real go of this, and end up coming to the attention of Fox Sports, or CBS in North America.

The potential money available by becoming important to those types of networks is beyond belief. In the last 2 weeks 2 NBA players have signed individual personal deals worth more than the combined annual TV deals of all 12 SL clubs.

 

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12 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Let's put some numbers against it. Say Toronto replace a club who takes 1000 fans to other games that means a lost income of say £20k to a club not an insignifanct amount of money on its own but when measured against a £5M-£10M turnover, which most of SL achieve I believe, it shouldn't be critical. 

That is too simple Spidey. Do you know what 20k could buy? Heaven forbid a SL with Catalans, Toulouse and Toronto lures a blue chip multinational company to sponsor SL in 5 years time at 5 or 10x what is currently being paid?

I mean, it might be a longer car journey than the Manchester BetFred offices for the meeting. That could be a deal breaker.

 

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3 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Sorry Jim have to go. Back later.

I think SL are not in a position to take big risks on the promise of Jam tomorrow so their policy to Toulouse and Toronto will be bring us a TV deal first

I think that is fair, and it protects SL from the big costs of accommodating expansion.

Remember SL is precariously financed, last contract saw a £68M deficit and financial disaster all the posters above want to conveniently forget.

It doesn't work like that though, and you are well aware of that fact.

Popularity gains TV deals, and you don't gain popularity and following overnight.

You aren't even thinking about what you post now.

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1 minute ago, Spidey said:

Leeds lose a Bradford fixture in favour of Toronto. 5k Bradford fans means circa £100k revenue for Leeds, they turnover in excess of £10M per year so it's only 1% of their total income - they can cope with this 

But other clubs can't cope with this.

A very selective argument, not having a go If SL was full of clubs run and financed like Leeds then of course it would not matter.

But would you throw out a club like Leeds for Toronto.

You have yet to explain what benefit Toronto will bring to Superleague if they started say next February instead of Widnes

No Away fans

No Player development to SL levels

No TV contract

No guarantee they will do anything

Every guarantee Widnes will collapse

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Are we all just rulling out for a fact Toronto wont bring away fans?

What about Canadian ex-pats, what about UK fans who just want to get behind Toronto? What about small number who do travel?

Id go watch them, as would a handful of my friends.

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