New Grounds.

[Leyther_Matt]

6 hours ago, MZH said:

Falkirk only have 3 sides aswell. There is something of an urban myth that it is because the 4th stand would be in the blast zone of the local oil refinery, but it isnt true. They just started out with 2, built a third, and havent had the requirement or the cash for number 4 yet.

They did have a gazebo type stand on one side for a spell when they were in the Premier a few years ago though, similar to Hamilton (another three sided ground, or two and a bit at least).

[Mr Plow]

10 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

Can someone please be concise? My history is a bit vague.

Who owns the combined Headingley grounds? Who is sharing what money to/from each club?

How much profit is split between each when it comes to all these vaunted corporate jollies? In short are Leeds getting a good deal?

BTW... There is a football ground with 3 sides, Oxford United.  I suspect there is a tale to tell about that one day.

 

 

6 hours ago, MZH said:

Falkirk only have 3 sides aswell. There is something of an urban myth that it is because the 4th stand would be in the blast zone of the local oil refinery, but it isnt true. They just started out with 2, built a third, and havent had the requirement or the cash for number 4 yet.

You could say Odsal and Belle Vue only have 3 sides with the South Bank and Benidorm flats. Throw Crown Flatts in there as well as there's just a grass hill behind one of the posts still 

[Rupert Prince]

12 minutes ago, Mr Plow said:

 

You could say Odsal and Belle Vue only have 3 sides with the South Bank and Benidorm flats. Throw Crown Flatts in there as well as there's just a grass hill behind one of the posts still 

Ah, Crown Flatts, how the memories come back. 

[Rupert Prince]

1 hour ago, M j M said:

Having re-read some of the documents from last year I think I can see where the figures come from:

£35m is the Legal & General investment.

plus £5m from Leeds Rhinos' cash reserves = £40m

The council noted that, "£2m of costs have already been incurred by the clubs in relation to theproject and it is estimated that a further £1m will be required before a formal contract start on site". = £43m.

Thanks for that, but where does the L&G money come in? Is this a mortgage? And where does the cricket club come in, why is it the RL club that is funding a chunk of it?

It's impressive and good on em, Leeds, to have healthy reserves, so where does that come from? If the Headingly complex makes so much money then does the cricket not make a bob or two as well?

PS... I have just turned the page and see more details from you. Thanks again.  So the impoverished council is throwing money about?

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Thanks for that, but where does the L&G money come in? Is this a mortgage? And where does the cricket club come in, why is it the RL club that is funding a chunk of it?

It's impressive and good on em, Leeds, to have healthy reserves, so where does that come from? If the Headingly complex makes so much money then does the cricket not make a bob or two as well?

As far as I'm aware the Rhinos specific investment is for the South Stand which is the specifically Rugby bit. 

[M j M]

Just now, Rupert Prince said:

Thanks for that, but where does the L&G money come in? Is this a mortgage? And where does the cricket club come in, why is it the RL club that is funding a chunk of it? 

It's impressive and good on em, Leeds, to have healthy reserves, so where does that come from? If the Headingly complex makes so much money then does the cricket not make a bob or two as well? 

Legal & General are paying for the new shared stand direct and then, via LCC, letting it to the clubs. The arrangement between the clubs and the council provides for overpayment of the 'rent' which reduces future rent payments, making it more like a loan. There was some speculation that this arrangement has been done to keep the debt off Yorkshire's books but whether that's true, and whether such an arrangement would survive future accounting standards changes I have no idea without seeing the specific details.

Leeds own the key existing corporate facilities in the pavilion and Carnegie Stand at Headingley which, apart from being a very tight-run ship and obviously decent revenues from on-field success, is what has guaranteed the club's financial viability in recent years and helped build up the cash for the redevelopment. Yorkshire can't really compete as it stands for non-gameday revenue.

[M j M]

13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

As far as I'm aware the Rhinos specific investment is for the South Stand which is the specifically Rugby bit. 

Correct. And Yorkshire are essentially skint so couldn't offer any cash up front in any event.

[Rupert Prince]

7 hours ago, MZH said:

Falkirk only have 3 sides aswell. There is something of an urban myth that it is because the 4th stand would be in the blast zone of the local oil refinery, but it isnt true. They just started out with 2, built a third, and havent had the requirement or the cash for number 4 yet.

Hah hah, a nice idea.

I believe oxford have tried to put up a temporary stand in the past. I think they have failed. This just about sums up the building the ground. I think any open discussion of it might become subject to litigation...

[Rupert Prince]

20 minutes ago, M j M said:

Legal & General are paying for the new shared stand direct and then, via LCC, letting it to the clubs. The arrangement between the clubs and the council provides for overpayment of the 'rent' which reduces future rent payments, making it more like a loan. There was some speculation that this arrangement has been done to keep the debt off Yorkshire's books but whether that's true, and whether such an arrangement would survive future accounting standards changes I have no idea without seeing the specific details.

Leeds own the key existing corporate facilities in the pavilion and Carnegie Stand at Headingley which, apart from being a very tight-run ship and obviously decent revenues from on-field success, is what has guaranteed the club's financial viability in recent years and helped build up the cash for the redevelopment. Yorkshire can't really compete as it stands for non-gameday revenue.

Thanks again for that.

I knew (well, always thought) the RL club were well set up, I did not realise the cricket club were the poor relation. I had always thought the opposite if anything.

I suspect the tortuous history of these clubs would tell a good (ongoing!) story.  Go write a book!

[cookey]

I believe Yorks CCC are about £24 mill in debt,albeit that this is guaranteed by one or more of the board directors - thats before the new stand.

 

[M j M]

35 minutes ago, cookey said:

I believe Yorks CCC are about £24 mill in debt,albeit that this is guaranteed by one or more of the board directors - thats before the new stand.

Yes, Colin Graves put most of that cash in and as far as I'm aware it's still there even though he's moved on. So they are up to their eyeballs already before the stand, but the idea is it will generate income which will let them pay down some of the existing as well as the additional 'rent'.

The main concern for Leeds (relegation apart) is that the new facility grows the whole business significantly so that the extra revenues offset allowing Yorkshire more of a cut of corporate income and obviously repaying the debts rather than just cannibalising the Headingley Experience business which is what drives a good chunk of the club's current revenues.

[Damien]

Many Cricket grounds are compete white elephants. Counties have gone into huge debt and financial difficulty solely to get Test match status for a Test match that they may get every blue moon. Outside these there is often the proverbial one man and his dog in attendance.

[Mr Plow]

New video showing South Stand in more detail

http://www.dla-design.co.uk/website-projects-graphics/the-new-headingley-carnegie-stadium-south

[redjonn]

3 hours ago, M j M said:

Legal & General are paying for the new shared stand direct and then, via LCC, letting it to the clubs. The arrangement between the clubs and the council provides for overpayment of the 'rent' which reduces future rent payments, making it more like a loan. There was some speculation that this arrangement has been done to keep the debt off Yorkshire's books but whether that's true, and whether such an arrangement would survive future accounting standards changes I have no idea without seeing the specific details.

Leeds own the key existing corporate facilities in the pavilion and Carnegie Stand at Headingley which, apart from being a very tight-run ship and obviously decent revenues from on-field success, is what has guaranteed the club's financial viability in recent years and helped build up the cash for the redevelopment. Yorkshire can't really compete as it stands for non-gameday revenue.

I assume Leeds will own the corporate/hospitality revenues for the new facilities for their own games.

Who owns the existing hotel as a matter of interest and Long bar facilities which form part of the building... I assumed Leeds via whatever legal structures.

Just intrigued...

[M j M]

1 minute ago, redjonn said:

I assume Leeds will own the corporate/hospitality revenues for the new facilities for their own games. 

Who owns the existing hotel as a matter of interest and Long bar facilities which form part of the building... I assumed Leeds via whatever legal structures. 

Just intrigued... 

The Long Bar/hotel intrigues me as there must be a very bespoke arrangement covering it which works for both parties. Leeds built it when we still owned the cricket ground but it is clearly structurally part of the cricket side, is the members' bar in Yorkshire games, and it houses some Yorkshire offices and nets etc. However Leeds still use it as the focus for post-match events (for which it is well suited, Alex Simmons apart), but that sees lots of corporates decamp from the Leeds-owned pavilion. Leeds staff seem to man its bars before/during/after RL games so this revenue sharing agreement could be a blueprint for how the new stand works.

Leeds run the hotel but the rooms convert to cricket boxes from which I assume YCCC take the revenue.

[redjonn]

1 hour ago, M j M said:

The Long Bar/hotel intrigues me as there must be a very bespoke arrangement covering it which works for both parties. Leeds built it when we still owned the cricket ground but it is clearly structurally part of the cricket side, is the members' bar in Yorkshire games, and it houses some Yorkshire offices and nets etc. However Leeds still use it as the focus for post-match events (for which it is well suited, Alex Simmons apart), but that sees lots of corporates decamp from the Leeds-owned pavilion. Leeds staff seem to man its bars before/during/after RL games so this revenue sharing agreement could be a blueprint for how the new stand works.

Leeds run the hotel but the rooms convert to cricket boxes from which I assume YCCC take the revenue.

Jolly good and thanks for taking the time to comment

[M j M]

Headingley yesterday.

 

[GeordieSaint]

Great photos MJM; looking forward to visiting next year, especially to watch you against Bradford in the West Yorkshire derby!

[East of the Moon]

Thank you MjM...great photos as the development progresses...

[M j M]

Headingley from the western end yesterday. Finally starting to feel like a proper stadium again after a year of being frankly a bit weird.

One thing about the setup this season is the players and coaching staff going past fans queuing to get in and out of the RL ground in the north-east corner as they access the temporary dressing rooms on the cricket side. If McDermott hadn't had the credibility of four Super League titles this boulevard of hostility would have been a rough place for him to walk through (obviously no-one is going to hurl abuse at Sinfield. Yet.)

[Blind side johnny]

On 8/3/2018 at 8:45 AM, East of the Moon said:

Thank you MjM...great photos as the development progresses...

Very interesting. Shame the blue plaque only refers to "Rugby" and all that this entails; if you haven't heard of the Challenge Cup then you would easily assume that it is RU.

Just me being a curmudgeon I suppose.

[East of the Moon]

Stop being a curdmunchen Johnny! That's the German spelling I couldn't spell the English version!  

[philipw]

If only they could justify the expense of sorting the Western Terrace, it would undoubtedly be the best RL stadium in the country. 

[Mr Plow]

Is there an acutual date for the South Stand opening? Can't be that much more to do besides finishing the concourse and tarmacing the car park

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, philipw said:

If only they could justify the expense of sorting the Western Terrace, it would undoubtedly be the best RL stadium in the country. 

The problem with the western terrace, as has probably been said before, is what exactly do you want to do when you "sort it".

The space to move around it is minimal. It thins out massively towards the southern end and has the public right of way behind it as well as the houses. Two options I could see in terms of increasing the space would have been to move the Carnegie (East) stand as far back as possible. Even to the point of having its structure built into the boundaries of the ground with an underpass where the carnegie cafe is now. Alternatively we could have done a Bournemouth and flipped the axis of the pitch. But obviously that would have cost a ridiculous amount. 

So what do we do now? Do we just add a roof? I'm not sure that would address the issues and would just paper over the cracks. Also a roof would run the risk of the planning being refused due to the houses and public right of way behind. Could we knock it down and build a new stand in its place. Yes but that would almost certainly be of a significantly reduced capacity, bringing the stadium overall down. Would look a bit like the tiny end at Landsdowne Road in Dublin. Whats the point of that. 

Whilst I agree the Western Terrace will look like the ugly sister to the rest of the ground, until I see an option to modernise it that genuinely would be an improvement, I'm inclined to not do anything just yet. Its still better than Wakey and Cas.