Ben Flower and why he hasn’t played for Wales in 5 years.

[paulwalker71]

Yeah, I read that article and what he said jarred a bit.

He's shown no interest in playing for Wales, even when they played at a World Cup. How much more a pinnacle would he expect than that? Perhaps if he'd played for Wales, they'd have got further in the WC and played against one of the big nations...

Anyway, he said he didn't want to get picked as a 'token Welsh player', which makes Wayne Bennett's job very easy, because he certainly isn't going to get picked on merit.

[Allora]

11 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

He’s as thick as I thought then. 

Wales won’t play the better sides if they’re not at a level to do so and getting to that level would/could be achieved if their top players, some would say Flower is one of these players, actually bothered playing for them. 

Take Tonga as an example. Okay for years, nothing more. Pretty average really. Nowhere near a Tier One side. Then a load of eligible Tongan players started playing for them, they won games and got themselves to Tier One status. 

Personally I do not like the terms Tier 1 and Tier 2, but out of interest when did Tonga become a tier 1 Nation?

[deluded pom?]

I've read on one of the GB (& I) threads here that the Celts don't recognise themselves as British. Obviously that changes when there's some glory (and money) to be had.

[FearNothing]

Over the last few years, for various reasons, I think we've been weaker at international level than if we'd had a full first-choice squad available. Injuries are unavoidable, but this attitude helps neither the nation or the individual...

Can't say I've always agreed with Kear's selections, even when players have been available, but the attitude on display in that article are pretty despicable.....  

[deluded pom?]

38 minutes ago, Allora said:

Personally I do not like the terms Tier 1 and Tier 2, but out of interest when did Tonga become a tier 1 Nation?

I think OC meant to say Tonga are now getting more games against tier 1 nations rather than becoming a tier 1 nation.

[Manx RL]

1 hour ago, deluded pom? said:

I've read on one of the GB (& I) threads here that the Celts don't recognise themselves as British. Obviously that changes when there's some glory (and money) to be had.

Mainly money 

[JoneslessBishop]

Kevin Sinfield suggested at the tour launch that he thought that the best scheduling for GB going forward would be the year after World Cups.

In terms of these sort of quotes from Flower, such scheduling works for me. I’d make the rule that you are only eligible for the GB tour if you played for your nation at the World Cup. Big incentive to ensure players turn out, and if Stevie Ward or Mark Sneyd not going to get picked for England, then play for Wales or Ireland. You get the strongest possible Celtic Nations, and the players get a big chance of a GB tour.

 

GB should allocate say 5 squad places for Celts. They might not be needed but if they did play, they would be of a high enough standard versus PNG for example

[fearnowt]

As John F Kennedy famously said "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".

If Ben Flower doesn't want to play for Wales, that's his decision and should be respected. But he shouldn't expect a phone call from John Kear if we end up playing against England in the World Cup quarter finals.

[Dave T]

32 minutes ago, JoneslessBishop said:

Kevin Sinfield suggested at the tour launch that he thought that the best scheduling for GB going forward would be the year after World Cups.

In terms of these sort of quotes from Flower, such scheduling works for me. I’d make the rule that you are only eligible for the GB tour if you played for your nation at the World Cup. Big incentive to ensure players turn out, and if Stevie Ward or Mark Sneyd not going to get picked for England, then play for Wales or Ireland. You get the strongest possible Celtic Nations, and the players get a big chance of a GB tour.

 

GB should allocate say 5 squad places for Celts. They might not be needed but if they did play, they would be of a high enough standard versus PNG for example

I think the length of the tour has put paid to a quota kind of system. If it was an extended tour, with midweek games, therefore requiring a large squad I think you could easily justify picking three from Wales, Ireland and Scotland squads. But you will want full squads for the Tonga and Kiwi Tests, and it's not worth carrying people just to play a game in week 4 on the way home.

[Bert1]

The 6 nations might have 200 million injected into it,  there are also talks of opening the comp up, then there's the league of nations idea, world cup in Japan etc

Meanwhile, we have people who can't be arsed to play for their country, the club vs country friction and an international calendar thought up on a fag packet.

[RP London]

3 minutes ago, Bert1 said:

an international calendar thought up on a fag packet.

I think you're being very generous there... the word "calendar" is a bit of a stretch too!

[Cheshire Setter]

2 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

I've read on one of the GB (& I) threads here that the Celts don't recognise themselves as British. Obviously that changes when there's some glory (and money) to be had.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.   Celts are more British than the English technically (if you follow the bloodline).

I could understand if they didn’t want to play for ‘England’ as historically it was founded as an Anglo-Saxon territory, but Wales and Scotland are in the British Isles.   The island of Ireland is geographically one of the ‘British Isles’ but politically I can appreciate for them to feel part of the team would require it to be called GB and Ireland, like the RU lions.

The GB&I rugby league team has nothing to do with unions of a kingdom or politics, it’s just a team of talented individuals from a geographical area playing together on a tour!

[deluded pom?]

1 minute ago, Cheshire Setter said:

That makes absolutely no sense at all.   Celts are more British than the English technically (if you follow the bloodline).

I could understand if they didn’t want to play for ‘England’ as historically it was founded as an Anglo-Saxon territory, but Wales and Scotland are in the British Isles.   The island of Ireland geographically one of the ‘British Isles’ but politically I can appreciate for them to feel part of the team would require it to be called GB and Ireland, like the RU lions.

The GB&I rugby league team has nothing to do with unions of a kingdom or politics, it’s just a team of talented individuals from a geographical area playing together on a tour!

I was just going by what someone posted in the GB & I thread.

[Bert1]

Average attendance at the World Cup in a country that Rugby League has some power 13,300. The sport is becoming a joke. We have one NA club trying to grow and we have people wanting it to fail. Meanwhile, union has set up a pro league and wants to add the USA to the nation's league. Let's keep shrinking until the inevitable happens.

[JoneslessBishop]

18 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think the length of the tour has put paid to a quota kind of system. If it was an extended tour, with midweek games, therefore requiring a large squad I think you could easily justify picking three from Wales, Ireland and Scotland squads. But you will want full squads for the Tonga and Kiwi Tests, and it's not worth carrying people just to play a game in week 4 on the way home.

I think McIllorum would be an excellent bench alternative to Roby against any opposition although the mins he plays you could argue no point in a hooker. I don’t think Grace, Knowles or Flower would let us down.

I do agree that more tour games would strengthen the quota idea, but we have been typically low key. However, not the RFLs mandate to strengthen the Celtic Nations. They should have lobbied harder but they have no finances to offer or negotiating stance as it’s not like they are involved in any regular competition with England.

Im looking forward to the tour, it seems to appeal to a lot of ex-players who played for GB and older fans and I don’t think it damages England. I can understand the RFL wanting to push another brand but seems to have little significant lbenefit and a bit contradictory if no Celtic players are playing. Including them would legitimize  the tour and would still leave the squad strong enough given Oz aren’t involved 

[Bert1]

For me, there doesn't have to be any celts (I would like there to be) but at the end of the day, we are all British & Ire. Let's make the tour every 5 years and hope the player pool grows which is the beauty of the nations coming together.

 

[saintspete83]

1. Ben flower is knowhere near the top 5 front rowers in the game so he can only dream of playing for GB. 

2. He should be very proud of his country and wanting to represent them helping the current/future Welsh boys achieve all they can. 

[Wolford6]

3 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

I've read on one of the GB (& I) threads here that the Celts don't recognise themselves as British. Obviously that changes when there's some glory (and money) to be had.

That's not true but many Welshmen (including me) won't wear anything with a Union Jack badge ... because we are not on it and Ireland is. [The St Patrick Cross on the flag does not represent Northern Ireland because NI uses the St Georges flag with a Red Hand at the centre.]

Many Cornish people class themselves as Cornish and not English.

Incidentally, according to last week's University Challenge, when James VI of Scotland became James I of England, he changed the Royal Coat of Arms by replacing a Dragon with a Unicorn.

 

Anyway, stuff the lot of you:

https://www.ranker.com/list/best-country-flags/ranker-travel

[MZH]

13 minutes ago, saintspete83 said:

1. Ben flower is knowhere near the top 5 front rowers in the game so he can only dream of playing for GB. 

2. He should be very proud of his country and wanting to represent them helping the current/future Welsh boys achieve all they can. 

Agree on both counts. Even if you had a fixture where for whatever reason none of the NRL players were involved, he is way behind Walmsley, Thompson, Taylor, Hill, Watts etc. And there are a band of young up and comers who will have also overtaken him in another year or two. Guys like Mulhearn, Lees, Matongo, Oledzski.

And on your second point, his comments show him to be selfish imo. As though playing for Wales is beneath him. He should want to help Wales be the best they can be, but he appears to only be interested in himself.

[Dave T]

36 minutes ago, JoneslessBishop said:

I think McIllorum would be an excellent bench alternative to Roby against any opposition although the mins he plays you could argue no point in a hooker. I don’t think Grace, Knowles or Flower would let us down.

I do agree that more tour games would strengthen the quota idea, but we have been typically low key. However, not the RFLs mandate to strengthen the Celtic Nations. They should have lobbied harder but they have no finances to offer or negotiating stance as it’s not like they are involved in any regular competition with England.

Im looking forward to the tour, it seems to appeal to a lot of ex-players who played for GB and older fans and I don’t think it damages England. I can understand the RFL wanting to push another brand but seems to have little significant lbenefit and a bit contradictory if no Celtic players are playing. Including them would legitimize  the tour and would still leave the squad strong enough given Oz aren’t involved 

The question though is is he better than the next option (possibly Clark?).

When you had extended tours, you often had in effect two different teams. I really enjoyed watching the '2nd string' games on the 1992 tour that Sky covered, and these games are the ones where wider squads can be used.

[SSoutherner]

it should be a hierarchy - you play for club and get selected for country, you play for country and get selected for GB - no if's no but's no shortcuts.  Easy to implement as well by saying the selection criteria is being in your respected countries national squad. Agree year after worl cups best for a GB squad as the WC would offer the showcase for home nations talent to be spotted in a level(ish) playing environment

[JoneslessBishop]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

The question though is is he better than the next option (possibly Clark?).

When you had extended tours, you often had in effect two different teams. I really enjoyed watching the '2nd string' games on the 1992 tour that Sky covered, and these games are the ones where wider squads can be used.

Maybe this time out is a proof of concept and we can see an extended tour next time. That can have scope for far more Celts and thus better incentive for better turn out for their Nations 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, JoneslessBishop said:

Maybe this time out is a proof of concept and we can see an extended tour next time. That can have scope for far more Celts and thus better incentive for better turn out for their Nations 

I'm not sure what concept we are proving though tbh. To those in NZ it means little as to whether we are Eng or GB, and we have been there a fair bit in recent years, so have an idea of how it will go. A bit worse than previously probably as there is no meaningful comp on this tour.

[JoneslessBishop]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure what concept we are proving though tbh. To those in NZ it means little as to whether we are Eng or GB, and we have been there a fair bit in recent years, so have an idea of how it will go. A bit worse than previously probably as there is no meaningful comp on this tour.

All the more reason to have a few Celts in the team for me then, otherwise not a new concept justba new shirt

[Dave T]

Just now, JoneslessBishop said:

All the more reason to have a few Celts in the team for me then, otherwise not a new concept justba new shirt

But that is the point. That's what it will be. A proper tour with a second sting team allows you to carry a few squad players for 'development' purposes or whatever. We will probably head there with 22-24 first choice picks. 

On the 1992 tour I referred to earlier, I loved seeing Kevin Ellis get a go in the midweek team, he only ever got 1 cap for GB though and that was the year earlier from the bench. He was way behind plenty other halves, but that tour allowed players like him to play an important part and develop as a player. 

We haven't done that kind of tour this time.