Ben Flower and why he hasn’t played for Wales in 5 years.

[welshmagpie]

http://www.totalrl.com/ben-flower-hopeful-celtic-players-arent-picked-for-great-britain-as-token-gestures/

“It’s difficult playing for Wales, when you know that most of the time you are not going to come up against the best opposition there is,”  he said. “You don’t play in the biggest games.

“Playing internationally should be the highlight of your career, but for me at present it isn’t. So if I got a chance to play for Great Britain against the best teams in the world it would be incredible.

 

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I somewhat agree with him but does he not realise that the problem starts with his own attitude and clubs similar to his employers.

If Ireland, Wales and Scotland could call up full strength sides then the European Cup would go from strength to strength in terms of coverage, respect and finances - instead it just goes around in circles.

After all look at what Taumalolo et al have done for Tonga.

[Oliver Clothesoff]

He’s as thick as I thought then. 

Wales won’t play the better sides if they’re not at a level to do so and getting to that level would/could be achieved if their top players, some would say Flower is one of these players, actually bothered playing for them. 

Take Tonga as an example. Okay for years, nothing more. Pretty average really. Nowhere near a Tier One side. Then a load of eligible Tongan players started playing for them, they won games and got themselves to Tier One status. 

[17 stone giant]

This is why right now I favour a permanent GB team, so that good players from Wales and Scotland have something to aspire to, and something to attract them to, or keep them in, rugby league.

In my opinion, Flower is talking about not being able to play for Wales against the likes of Australia, New Zealand, and England. That's surely what he means by "best opposition". Of course at the moment those teams aren't going to play Wales unless they absolutely have to (such as in a World Cup), because it's just not a contest. Very few people want to watch Australia put 80 points on Wales.

My hope is that by having the incentive of a GB shirt, we would encourage more Welsh kids to play rugby league. If we can get enough of them coming through, then hopefully the Wales team would be good enough to play matches against Australia, New Zealand, England, etc. on a regular basis. If that were to happen, you can then split Great Britain up again. Or maybe turn GB into a rugby union Lions type team, because you would now have a mix of players from the different countries.

[17 stone giant]

2 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

He’s as thick as I thought then. 

Wales won’t play the better sides if they’re not at a level to do so and getting to that level would/could be achieved if their top players, some would say Flower is one of these players, actually bothered playing for them.

You can't expect them to slog away playing for Wales in ###### matches in front of one man and his dog, just in the hope that one day Wales might improve to a level whereby they can play Australia. Once again, rugby league and some fans need a dose of reality. If I was in Flower's position, I wouldn't bother playing for Wales either most of the time. That's why we need a different approach, and playing regularly as GB is the best solution right now.

[Oliver Clothesoff]

1 minute ago, 17 stone giant said:

You can't expect them to slog away playing for Wales in ###### matches in front of one man and his dog, just in the hope that one day Wales might improve to a level whereby they can play Australia. Once again, rugby league and some fans need a dose of reality. If I was in Flower's position, I wouldn't bother playing for Wales either most of the time. That's why we need a different approach, and playing regularly as GB is the best solution right now.

If that’s the attitude from him and others, then of course they won’t play anyone of note on a regular basis. 

Does he pick when he plays for Wigan? I just checked and that buffoon Wane picked High & Mighty against Widnes?! Was he mad?! Benny doesn’t play those that are beneath him.

Thankfully the Tongans have taken a different attitude and International RL is seeing the benefits.

[17 stone giant]

4 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

If that’s the attitude from him and others, then of course they won’t play anyone of note on a regular basis.

Do you think right now that if the best 13 Welsh players played for Wales, that Australia would agree to play them?

I don't know because I'm not knowledgeable enough about rugby league and what Welsh players are out there for selection, but I look at Wales results at the last World Cup (lost 50-6 to PNG and 34-6 to Ireland) and I can't believe that Australia would have much interest in playing a team like that. 

[Sports Prophet]

24 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

He’s as thick as I thought then. 

Wales won’t play the better sides if they’re not at a level to do so and getting to that level would/could be achieved if their top players, some would say Flower is one of these players, actually bothered playing for them. 

Take Tonga as an example. Okay for years, nothing more. Pretty average really. Nowhere near a Tier One side. Then a load of eligible Tongan players started playing for them, they won games and got themselves to Tier One status. 

I think any eligible Welshman that was fit and available and identified as Welsh more so than any other nationality was playing in Australia late 2017.

In contrast to Tonga, the performances of the Welsh national side offered little to entice a call out from either Australia, New Zealand or England. 

For now, the vehicle for playing in big time international fixtures for any Welsh, Scottish or Irish national is the GB Lions.

Likewise, the GB Lions offer an incentive far and away more lucrative and of a more significant profile to any aspiring rugby player of those nations than the international fixtures of those respective individual nations.

[Man of Kent]

I hope Wayne Bennett doesn’t pick Flower for the Lions if he basically couldn’t be bothered with Wales.

There’s an opportunity to send a signal to players who play for their home nation that they have a chance of getting picked and vice versa. 

[burnleywelsh]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

I hope Wayne Bennett doesn’t pick Flower for the Lions if he basically couldn’t be bothered with Wales.

There’s an opportunity to send a signal to players who play for their home nation that they have a chance of getting picked and vice versa. 

Totally agree with you. 

Representing your country is the highest honour any player can aspire to. You are representing your country, your family, your culture. You don’t pick and choose who your playing against. Yes, GB is a higher level. Higher than Wales, England, Scotland and Ireland. But why should anyone leapfrog the natural order of things? Ben Flower should be ashamed of himself. Unless he does the ‘hard yards’ and do what is right by his country, why should he snub Wales and expect to get a free pass to be even considered for selection for GB & Ireland.

[BroncoFan]

Gil Dudson has been much better than him so far this season.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

18 minutes ago, burnleywelsh said:

Ben Flower should be ashamed of himself. Unless he does the ‘hard yards’ and do what is right by his country, why should he snub Wales and expect to get a free pass to be even considered for selection for GB & Ireland.

To be fair, Ben Flower isn't obliged to play for Wales in low-profile games in front of minimal crowds.

Rugby League needs to create an international programme that players aspire to be a part of. I see that as the responsibility of the various governing bodies involved as opposed to the onus being on the players. In other sports such as football, cricket or rugby union, players see internationals as being the pinnacle of the sport. We have to try and create a similar aspiration in RL in order to attract and retain players to our sport.

GB Lions could play a major part in this, but they have to be part of a coordinated international programme that provides regular meaningful fixtures for all of the home nations, at least some of which are against some sort of high profile opposition.

[The Dude]

Wales doesn't need him. An Englishman can take his place.

[welshmagpie]

7 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I think any eligible Welshman that was fit and available and identified as Welsh more so than any other nationality was playing in Australia late 2017.

In contrast to Tonga, the performances of the Welsh national side offered little to entice a call out from either Australia, New Zealand or England. 

For now, the vehicle for playing in big time international fixtures for any Welsh, Scottish or Irish national is the GB Lions.

Likewise, the GB Lions offer an incentive far and away more lucrative and of a more significant profile to any aspiring rugby player of those nations than the international fixtures of those respective individual nations.

I’ll put together a team for you...

this isn’t for anybody to start an eligibility argument, or who plays for who etc.. I’m merely putting forward Wales best possible team on paper:

1: Caleb Aekins (NRL)

2: Rhys Williams (SL)

3: Elliot Kear (SL)

4: Chester Butler (CH)

5: Regan Grace (SL)

6: Jahrome Hughes (NRL)

7: Josh Ralph (QLD Cup)

8: Gil Dudson (SL)

9: Matty Fozard (SL)

10: Ben Flower (SL)

11: Morgan Knowles (SL)

12: Tyson Frizell (NRL)

13: Stevie Ward (SL)

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14: Ben Evans (CH)

15: Curtis Davies (CH)

16: Craig Kopczak (SL)

17: Rhodri Lloyd (CH)

[welshmagpie]

Worth noting I’ve seen Gareth Bale play for Wales in front of 3,000 in Moldova.

It was the lowest of the lows for a world class player who’s proud to play for his country. 

[ghost crayfish]

I think in amongst all the judgement here, it's worth remembering this guy is a reasonably injury prone prop forward playing in a club competition that asks top clubs to play upwards of 40 games a year. 

So with respect to the honour of it all, I think it's understandable a guy in that position might want to spend the little time off he has refreshing his body, rather than slogging it out in disrespectfully low profile 'internationals' playing with and against part timers. If the RFL was competent enough to give Wales televised tests against professional opposition in decent stadiums with reasonable crowds, he might feel different. It doesn't have to be Australia at the Millennium - England in Warrington would probably do!

[Manx RL]

What’s the minimum crowd figure for an international game that a player should be looking at to commit to playing?

[Sports Prophet]

45 minutes ago, welshmagpie said:

Worth noting I’ve seen Gareth Bale play for Wales in front of 3,000 in Moldova.

It was the lowest of the lows for a world class player who’s proud to play for his country. 

Don’t be so flippant. Wales soccer team have opportunity at in front of very large crowds on very large occasions. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

[Sports Prophet]

53 minutes ago, welshmagpie said:

I’ll put together a team for you...

this isn’t for anybody to start an eligibility argument, or who plays for who etc.. I’m merely putting forward Wales best possible team on paper:

1: Caleb Aekins (NRL)

2: Rhys Williams (SL)

3: Elliot Kear (SL)

4: Chester Butler (CH)

5: Regan Grace (SL)

6: Jahrome Hughes (NRL)

7: Josh Ralph (QLD Cup)

8: Gil Dudson (SL)

9: Matty Fozard (SL)

10: Ben Flower (SL)

11: Morgan Knowles (SL)

12: Tyson Frizell (NRL)

13: Stevie Ward (SL)

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14: Ben Evans (CH)

15: Curtis Davies (CH)

16: Craig Kopczak (SL)

17: Rhodri Lloyd (CH)

Awesome, how many of those played in the World Cup? Not counting Frizell of course as he was representing Australia.

That squad doesn’t look anything less than a 60 point loss against the Kangaroos. Don’t expect the NRL to call anytime soon.

[Hughsehhh]

Poor from Flower who's quite average anyway, said as a Welshman. If all players took that attitude, the international game would never grow beyond the tier 1 nations as each player would be waiting for the other to play a few games and raise the profile so to speak.

Thankfully Wales qualified for the next world cup at the recent euro championships, but there flower had the chance to play against France and a number of SL players in the Scotland and Ireland teams. As someone has said above, the tier 1 nations would hammer Wales and he'd  be even more prone to injury 

[Dave T]

His complaints are valid. The international game for nations like this is rubbish in the main and they get little help from anyone.

That shouldn't excuse him from playing for Wales though. I'm afraid if you aren't committed to trying to get involved in the international game, championing it and putting these challenges out from the inside then you have no real claim to be near a GB shirt.

[andyscoot]

I can see his viewpoint but I don't necessarily agree with it.

I also don't think the comparison to Tonga is particularly relevant because there's no Taumalolo/Fafita calibre of player who is ready to defect. Neither were born in Tonga  and had played RL for other NZ/Aus before deciding to play for Tonga. Tonga itself is absolutely mad on RL too so anytime they play it's an occasion. Apples and oranges.

[Cumbrian Fanatic]

9 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

I hope Wayne Bennett doesn’t pick Flower for the Lions if he basically couldn’t be bothered with Wales.

There’s an opportunity to send a signal to players who play for their home nation that they have a chance of getting picked and vice versa. 

Wayne Bennett won't pick him because there's probably about 10 props better than him that would be picked first

[Wolford6]

Ben Flower is entitled to his opinion and his choice. If he gets a testimonial at Wigan, no doubt he wouldn't dream of arranging any sporting dinners and giving any after-dinner speeches in Wales.

What Bennett should say is that he'll pick players who have committed themselves to their countries, be that England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland. Craig Kopczak has retired from international rugby after giving outstanding service to Wales. He plays in Flower's position and I bet he'd jump at the chance to captain the dirt trackers on a GB tour.

We have players who willingly travel from Australia to play for Wales. Flower can't be bothered to travel for 3 hours.

 

[Wolford6]

We only play in the Championship and it's only the start of the season but, so far, Rhys Evans has been great for us at centre. Makes solid tackles and always gains good yards ... a tractor rather than a flier, but breaks tackles.

I'd love him to declare again for Wales.

[Lowdesert]

If a regular RL competition strategy was implemented, each year, which included most nations, then Flower and players like him who feel the same way, would be able to compete.  If he didn’t want to, then that’s his choice.

We have the RFL, NRL v the RLIF when should be getting their act together for an international strategy for the good of the game.