The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[GUBRATS]

10 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

It would be interesting to compare the Melbourne Storm model from inception.  I don't think they had any academy or reserves.

Always makes me giggle when people reference Melbourne , aren't they the biggest cheats the games ever had ?

[Liverpool Rover]

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/tony-smith-toronto-super-league-4463615.amp

[GUBRATS]

10 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I agree with a lot of your proposals, but that is shear madness in my opinion, the thing about a league system is that it is about winning and losing points to position teams in an order of merit, in your system all the teams can win points to strive for the play offs and the ultimate prize, but for some teams it doesn't matter at all if they lose points no matter how much weight or how hard they jump on the trap door it remains firmly and tightly closed for them whilst another team stood on firm ground could get sucked in for not finishing bottom!

Your system is a complete recipe to be abused, what if one of the 'protected' teams decided to do a Saints of '19 and played weakened teams in fixtures as Saints did with London - twice, what if through that action of Saints - which they did nothing wrong - had resulted in one of the other bottom 4 being relegated do you honestly think that would have passed without mention or even criticism or maybe some ruling amendments? Saints action was legal definatley, but as the season panned out it proved to be anything but ethical especially to the teams competing with London to avoid relegation.

What is so good about 'jeopardy' and relegation is it makes the player's give their all especially in games deemed "4 pointers" take away the nessacity to win and it just doesn't matter if they lose, and that can effect other teams.

We have a situation in SL that it is regarded as being 2 divisions in one but that is only a thought process, in your system you are rubber stamping and making it official that we would have two divisions in one, madness.

Quote: "What we've seen over the last 3/4 years hasn't pleased anybody"

Speak for yourself I loved every minute of the 8's, being the elation and the euphoria, along with the disappointment and the despair, it was sport and competition that got the senses going, I would have it back in the blink of an eye.

 

The last 3/4 years was a reference to Toronto outspending all their competitors by a massive amount , I too enjoyed the 8 s , as I always do when we have something to play for over a season 

[Whippet13]

Tony Smith is complaining about letting Toronto back in when they have not paid their players, he is ignoring the publically known point that a condition of them rejoining for 2021 is the players will be paid for 2020. If Toronto are rejected they will almost inevitably fold and those players won't get a penny of what they are owed.

[GUBRATS]

9 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

The salary cap is irrelevant.  Being well resourced means having enough money not to go bankrupt.  

There is nothing wrong with being bottom.  Given that you are obviously living in the past... just consider this:  In them golden days of yore, there was a 30 team league, one division.  There was no promotion, no relegation.  Was is so terrible then that say Batley finished bottom?   Do you demand that the bottom team be relegated and replaced by Leigh Miners Welfare?  There has always been a bottom team, were the bottom teams just going through the motions?

But in those golden days players got a bit of extra money and a winning bonus.  Today relatively huge sums of investment are being spent and players are on significant salaries.  That's a lot of jeopardy.

Suppose Wakefield actually spend eye watering sums and build their mythical stadium.  Well done to them and their investors and their bankers.  But then they get relegated?  Well...?  What would happen then?    

Under the present system how can any even medium club plan and manage it's future.

There is no ladder to climb in RL, and the base of its pyramid is too narrow. The ladder which some want to lean against the wall is on shaky foundations.

P & R is a disaster for RL.  

So it would be a disaster for Wakey in a good stadium ( although why you've added that I don't understand ) to be relegated ? 

But it isn't a disaster for Leigh in a good stadium ( a real actual thing , that ALL clubs were asked to achieve ) to be refused promotion ?

Double standards I'm afraid 

[GUBRATS]

9 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

As long as they are spending their own money on development, I can't say I really care.  

But then they aren't expanding the player pool 

[Rupert Prince]

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So it would be a disaster for Wakey in a good stadium ( although why you've added that I don't understand ) to be relegated ? 

But it isn't a disaster for Leigh in a good stadium ( a real actual thing , that ALL clubs were asked to achieve ) to be refused promotion ?

Double standards I'm afraid 

My thought experiment suggested that a club (any club really) would think hard to invest huge sums on a stadium but then find itself relegated.

Under old middle 8 system a team could invest like that, and finish 9th... And still get relegated.

And of course, even now with the Championship system, a club could invest in facilities (or whatever), get relegated into the Championship (parachutes and all) and finish top the following season...  only to lose in the Championship playoffs!

Of course there is another scenario as well, the relegated team can be run by total twassocks and deserve relegation... But crawled to 4th (on points difference) in the Championship, after the leader won by 10points with a huge future ahead of it.  But the leader lost the playoffs - because its star player broke his leg.

I don't think that thought experiment is that difficult to comprehend, is it?   

What people need to get round their heads is that for Professional Rugby League P & R is a disaster. 

[Oldbear]

11 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Let’s say Toronto can be readmitted as long as they agree to pay a seven-figure bond and/or forego TV money, and continue paying travel costs. They would likely continue to be Super League whipping boys due to recruitment issues and lack of reserves/Academy. Is that still an attractive proposition to Toronto fans?

The more important point is that it would not be an attractive proposition to Canadian TV. The best way of getting a TV deal worth more than peanuts would be to market TWP as Canada’s SL team, similar to the way the Raptors and Blue Jays are marketed in their leagues, however that strategy only works if Canada’s team is worth watching, wins a number of games and provides entertainment, being whipping boys is not in that script.

This is actually my biggest worry about the future of TWP, that somehow they survive but just limp along to a slow painful death. I’m sceptical about the whole TV riches concept anyhow but common sense says that if you want the TV companies to take note and pay decent $ you have to provide competitive games which are worth watching, the likes of the pre Covid blowout by Leeds would only be tolerated for so long and unless something changes I can’t see how the currently contracted TWP squad will be able to compete.

[Harry Stottle]

11 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

My thought experiment suggested that a club (any club really) would think hard to invest huge sums on a stadium but then find itself relegated.

Under old middle 8 system a team could invest like that, and finish 9th... And still get relegated.

And of course, even now with the Championship system, a club could invest in facilities (or whatever), get relegated into the Championship (parachutes and all) and finish top the following season...  only to lose in the Championship playoffs!

Of course there is another scenario as well, the relegated team can be run by total twassocks and deserve relegation... But crawled to 4th (on points difference) in the Championship, after the leader won by 10points with a huge future ahead of it.  But the leader lost the playoffs - because its star player broke his leg.

I don't think that thought experiment is that difficult to comprehend, is it?   

What people need to get round their heads is that for Professional Rugby League P & R is a disaster. 

And up to 6 teams doing nothing but going through the motions for nigh on half a season is good is it? 

What some people need to get round their heads is that Rugby League is a sporting arena where winning and losing should matter on both accounts carrying both elation and disappointment, disregarding one of those elements whereby teams are exempt from relegation takes away the concept and essence of a sporting contest.

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

But then they aren't expanding the player pool 

Explain.

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, Oldbear said:

The more important point is that it would not be an attractive proposition to Canadian TV. The best way of getting a TV deal worth more than peanuts would be to market TWP as Canada’s SL team, similar to the way the Raptors and Blue Jays are marketed in their leagues, however that strategy only works if Canada’s team is worth watching, wins a number of games and provides entertainment, being whipping boys is not in that script.

This is actually my biggest worry about the future of TWP, that somehow they survive but just limp along to a slow painful death. I’m sceptical about the whole TV riches concept anyhow but common sense says that if you want the TV companies to take note and pay decent $ you have to provide competitive games which are worth watching, the likes of the pre Covid blowout by Leeds would only be tolerated for so long and unless something changes I can’t see how the currently contracted TWP squad will be able to compete.

If ‘Salford Studmuffins’ played in the CFL and got pasted every week the novelty over here would wear thin very fast. Wouldn’t get much of a TV deal, I imagine.

As for next season, they’d be even worse prepared than for this season. If they are desperate to be back and are willing to pay for it, fine. But...

[Rupert Prince]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

And up to 6 teams doing nothing but going through the motions for nigh on half a season is good is it? 

What some people need to get round their heads is that Rugby League is a sporting arena where winning and losing should matter on both accounts carrying both elation and disappointment, disregarding one of those elements whereby teams are exempt from relegation takes away the concept and essence of a sporting contest.

No Professional Rugby League is NEEDS TO BE a business, not a bunch of amateurish nitwits.

[Kayakman]

Well it appears Tony Smith has finally let the cat out of the bag....SL simply can't afford to move forward without Toronto...I watched a Union game on TV for all of 5 minutes today...so boring....

COME ON FELLAS LET TORONTO BACK IN!.....WE NEED RL GAMES OVER HERE BAD!

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

My thought experiment suggested that a club (any club really) would think hard to invest huge sums on a stadium but then find itself relegated.

Under old middle 8 system a team could invest like that, and finish 9th... And still get relegated.

And of course, even now with the Championship system, a club could invest in facilities (or whatever), get relegated into the Championship (parachutes and all) and finish top the following season...  only to lose in the Championship playoffs!

Of course there is another scenario as well, the relegated team can be run by total twassocks and deserve relegation... But crawled to 4th (on points difference) in the Championship, after the leader won by 10points with a huge future ahead of it.  But the leader lost the playoffs - because its star player broke his leg.

I don't think that thought experiment is that difficult to comprehend, is it?   

What people need to get round their heads is that for Professional Rugby League P & R is a disaster. 

No idea what all your ' waffle ' was meant to achieve , you stated that a club ( Wakefield ) being relegated would be a disaster , is that any more of a disaster than a club being refused promotion ? 

Is that difficult to comprehend ? 

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, Oldbear said:

The more important point is that it would not be an attractive proposition to Canadian TV. The best way of getting a TV deal worth more than peanuts would be to market TWP as Canada’s SL team, similar to the way the Raptors and Blue Jays are marketed in their leagues, however that strategy only works if Canada’s team is worth watching, wins a number of games and provides entertainment, being whipping boys is not in that script.

This is actually my biggest worry about the future of TWP, that somehow they survive but just limp along to a slow painful death. I’m sceptical about the whole TV riches concept anyhow but common sense says that if you want the TV companies to take note and pay decent $ you have to provide competitive games which are worth watching, the likes of the pre Covid blowout by Leeds would only be tolerated for so long and unless something changes I can’t see how the currently contracted TWP squad will be able to compete.

So it only works if you win , I'd suggest you find another interest , because the whole point of sport is that for every winner there is a loser , somebody will finish top , and somebody else will finish bottom 

So what do you want , Toronto get extra players on the pitch ? , A ten point start ? , Haven't you ever heard the term " may the best team win " that refers to their endeavours on the day , not some pre ordained decision , or some childish " if we don't win , were taking our ball home " 

This thread gets crazyer day by day 

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Explain.

There is already more than enough academy places for players from those areas , it's new players from new areas playing the game that is needed , maybe like in Canada , Ontario maybe ? , Toronto perhaps ?

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

No Professional Rugby League is NEEDS TO BE a business, not a bunch of amateurish nitwits.

No it needs to be a competition , where all start equal and finish where their performances deserve and decree , and if that is bottom and there is a mechanism for them to be replaced yearly based on on field performance , then that is it 

[Gooleboy]

14 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

The salary cap is irrelevant.  Being well resourced means having enough money not to go bankrupt.  

There is nothing wrong with being bottom.  Given that you are obviously living in the past... just consider this:  In them golden days of yore, there was a 30 team league, one division.  There was no promotion, no relegation.  Was is so terrible then that say Batley finished bottom?   Do you demand that the bottom team be relegated and replaced by Leigh Miners Welfare?  There has always been a bottom team, were the bottom teams just going through the motions?

But in those golden days players got a bit of extra money and a winning bonus.  Today relatively huge sums of investment are being spent and players are on significant salaries.  That's a lot of jeopardy.

Suppose Wakefield actually spend eye watering sums and build their mythical stadium.  Well done to them and their investors and their bankers.  But then they get relegated?  Well...?  What would happen then?    

Under the present system how can any even medium club plan and manage it's future.

There is no ladder to climb in RL, and the base of its pyramid is too narrow. The ladder which some want to lean against the wall is on shaky foundations.

P & R is a disaster for RL.  

So drawbridge up, a League of elitism and stuff the rest. Don't go and watch your team anymore as you will not get into the "closed shop". Happy days for the chosen few.

[ojx]

3 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

So drawbridge up, a League of elitism and stuff the rest. Don't go and watch your team anymore as you will not get into the "closed shop". Happy days for the chosen few.

For my sins, I've been watching a bit of the RU premiership. Unless they are in for a chance at the playoffs, the rest of the clubs are just going through the motions, now they know Saracens are relegated.  It would be a disaster to get rid of P&R with the current weak administration of the game. They do not have the ability to implement licensing which requires aggressively moving weak franchises to more profitable markets to position the sport in the best commercial position for tv deals. SL clubs just see licensing as a protection racket. They did it before, and where for example, are Wakefield and Castleford's new or improved stadiums they could have invested in?

[Man of Kent]

6 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

There is already more than enough academy places for players from those areas , it's new players from new areas playing the game that is needed , maybe like in Canada , Ontario maybe ? , Toronto perhaps ?

I meant a central TW Academy in Northern England where they train could be populated by players from all over, so in theory it could expand the base depending on where they come from. Pie in the sky stuff, of course, as is talk of satellite TW Academies in Wales or Cumbria.

[Harry Stottle]

9 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

No Professional Rugby League is NEEDS TO BE a business, not a bunch of amateurish nitwits.

OK, sport and being a contest comes secondary in your world, I shall leave it at that. 

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Well it appears Tony Smith has finally let the cat out of the bag....SL simply can't afford to move forward without Toronto...I watched a Union game on TV for all of 5 minutes today...so boring....

COME ON FELLAS LET TORONTO BACK IN!.....WE NEED RL GAMES OVER HERE BAD!

Sadly K'man there are not enough of you guy's of that opinion 

I will leave you with one thought on that, if we did not have an infrastructure over here run by amatuers/volunteers for amatuers we would not have the professional game .................. there is always Day 1 for some innovative folks to set the snowball rolling down from the top of the hill.

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, SL17 said:

You all need to give your heads a wobble. Let’s start making this game.

Whats in the past stays there. If you’re in the past then stay there. 
 

Your past interest or even financial viability was #### ing useless.

The game has failed through people who live in the past.

The 'closed shop' is in the past, thank goodness, if it returns I will be in the past in as far as supporting the game at Professional level is concerned.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

I meant a central TW Academy in Northern England where they train could be populated by players from all over, so in theory it could expand the base depending on where they come from. Pie in the sky stuff, of course, as is talk of satellite TW Academies in Wales or Cumbria.

Your dead right MoK ..........."Pie in the Sky stuff"

[Pulga]

9 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

So drawbridge up, a League of elitism and stuff the rest. Don't go and watch your team anymore as you will not get into the "closed shop". Happy days for the chosen few.

P&R is a joke. There's a reason why no NRL team represents a population of under 200,000 people....