The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I don't disagree, but we're also talking of getting Second and Third division teams playing next year too

Not on this thread we're not 

But the odds on that happening are shrinking by the hour 

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Not on this thread we're not 

But the odds on that happening are shrinking by the hour 

This thread is pretty all encompassing 

[Toby Chopra]

14 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It is Toronto we are discussing , essentially a ' hollow ' club , no infrastructure , few if any employee's , no actual commitments ( other than historical debt , which might not get paid either way ) , who will be unable to service their only asset ( the fans who turned up at Lamport ) till late spring 2022 

So whatever decisions or criteria is sorted now might be obsolete or unworkable in anything under 6 months time 

So put them in ' deep freeze ' until next April , and then re open the folder with Toronto Wolfpack SL on the cover then 

This will then allow all the other clubs and the sports administrators to concentrate on trying to keep a competition and an opposition for them to play against eventually 

Sheer madness 

I don't get this. If anything, the current situation means Toronto is less of an outlier. The current choice for 2021 seems to be the following:

1/ Get a 12th team by paying a UK-based Toronto to cobble together a squad to play in front of zero fans. 

2/ Get a 12th team by paying another UK-based club to cobble together a squad to play in front of zero fans. 

3/ Go with 11 teams, with a team on a bye each week. 

I'm not sure choosing Toronto under current circumstances complicates things that much. It's more a choice of which 12th team (Toronto, Leigh, Fev, Toulouse etc) you want to give a chance to be active in the first half of 2021. But none of them (except maybe Toulouse) will be able to accept paying fans. 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I don't get this. If anything, the current situation means Toronto is less of an outlier. The current choice for 2021 seems to be the following:

1/ Get a 12th team by paying a UK-based Toronto to cobble together a squad to play in front of zero fans. 

2/ Get a 12th team by paying another UK-based club to cobble together a squad to play in front of zero fans. 

3/ Go with 11 teams, with a team on a bye each week. 

I'm not sure choosing Toronto under current circumstances complicates things that much. It's more a choice of which 12th team (Toronto, Leigh, Fev, Toulouse etc) you want to give a chance to be active in the first half of 2021. But none of them (except maybe Toulouse) will be able to accept paying fans. 

It'll be an 11 team comp , providing something sensible can be worked for Catalans ( my suggestion of them decamping to the LSV would probably be best ) , other wise go with 10 

[Toby Chopra]

9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It'll be an 11 team comp , providing something sensible can be worked for Catalans ( my suggestion of them decamping to the LSV would probably be best ) , other wise go with 10 

It might well be an 11 team comp, so they can divvy up the money, but I see no reason for Catalans to be omitted. Inter-European Pro sport doesn't look like it will be suspended again, whatever happens. 

Not sure Sky are crying out for another year without relegation, though. Might be good for Toronto to be the fall guys... 

[Oxford]

5 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Might be good for Toronto to be the fall guys... 

They already are!

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

18 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It'll be an 11 team comp , providing something sensible can be worked for Catalans ( my suggestion of them decamping to the LSV would probably be best ) , other wise go with 10 

So 30 odd Catalans' employees would up sticks and live away from their families and friends for 8-9months? Not going to happen.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

So 30 odd Catalans' employees would up sticks and live away from their families and friends for 8-9months? Not going to happen.

Not unreasonable for them to play their games in blocks of 3/4 rather than flying in and out every second week , it's what the NZ Warriors did 

Just a suggestion on my part , other options are available , like them also sitting out the season 

As I put above , Covid doesn't play by the rules , cannot be influenced by big business , and it seems won't be told what to do by politicians , fight against it if you like , but I know who my monies going on 

[Steve Slater]

I'd put my money on a 10 team war time emergency style Super League with Catalans and Toronto sitting it out for a year. I don't know what would happen to their contracted players though? Maybe bigger squads would be needed to cover for positive covid tests, so the players could be divided between the 10 clubs on loan, financed by the Sky money saved that would have gone to Catalans?

[Toby Chopra]

32 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Not unreasonable for them to play their games in blocks of 3/4 rather than flying in and out every second week , it's what the NZ Warriors did 

Just a suggestion on my part , other options are available , like them also sitting out the season 

As I put above , Covid doesn't play by the rules , cannot be influenced by big business , and it seems won't be told what to do by politicians , fight against it if you like , but I know who my monies going on 

It's not about what I like, or think should happen, it's just my observation of what governments seem to be willing to allow. 

They seem to be willing to allow pro sports to continue, and allow European pro sports teams to cross borders providing certain protocols are adhered to, even if the rest of us have to quarantine. 

Until that changes, and so far it hasn't, even where lockdown have been reimposed, there's no reason to omit Catalans or make them relocate. 

[Blind side johnny]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Not unreasonable for them to play their games in blocks of 3/4 rather than flying in and out every second week , it's what the NZ Warriors did 

Just a suggestion on my part , other options are available , like them also sitting out the season 

As I put above , Covid doesn't play by the rules , cannot be influenced by big business , and it seems won't be told what to do by politicians , fight against it if you like , but I know who my monies going on 

Yes, but Leigh? That's really rubbing their noses in it, don't you think?

[Oldbear]

An 11 team comp next year seems the only likely scenario, again assuming Catalans can take part. Reasons as follows

1. even if given the green light there’s no way TWP can come up with a competitive squad in time for next season, getting smashed every week will harm the club irreparably

2. the same applies for any Championship team invited up to fill the space, they would be faced with the same lack of competitiveness or spending into oblivion to try to survive

3. actually having a team on a bye each week may help with any short notice game rearrangements as Covid is unlikely to just disappear.

Maybe the solution is that SL invites applications for the 12th place in 2022, every club submits a full business plan, all applications that pass the vetting process are then asked to compete against each other in a tournament held summer next year, winner to SL for 2022, plus if timed correctly it gives the winner the luxury of a full 6 months to recruit their SL squad. I know it sounds a bit crazy but it’s better than the so called franchise approach as it incorporates the on the field element, and should remove any team that doesn’t have a pot to ###### in, whilst also allowing clubs with ambition to stake their claim. Imagine a tournament comprising of Leigh, Fev, York, Toulouse, TWP, maybe a couple of others, held at 2 neutral venues. One rule though, any team competing in this comp must not use DR players.

[GUBRATS]

29 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Yes, but Leigh? That's really rubbing their noses in it, don't you think?

Yes John , we know , the joke was done yesterday when I suggested it 

But ultimately the site is perfect , hotel on site , all the necessary training facilities , and probably reasonable cost ATM compared to chartering flights 

[GUBRATS]

12 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

An 11 team comp next year seems the only likely scenario, again assuming Catalans can take part. Reasons as follows

1. even if given the green light there’s no way TWP can come up with a competitive squad in time for next season, getting smashed every week will harm the club irreparably

2. the same applies for any Championship team invited up to fill the space, they would be faced with the same lack of competitiveness or spending into oblivion to try to survive

3. actually having a team on a bye each week may help with any short notice game rearrangements as Covid is unlikely to just disappear.

Maybe the solution is that SL invites applications for the 12th place in 2022, every club submits a full business plan, all applications that pass the vetting process are then asked to compete against each other in a tournament held summer next year, winner to SL for 2022, plus if timed correctly it gives the winner the luxury of a full 6 months to recruit their SL squad. I know it sounds a bit crazy but it’s better than the so called franchise approach as it incorporates the on the field element, and should remove any team that doesn’t have a pot to ###### in, whilst also allowing clubs with ambition to stake their claim. Imagine a tournament comprising of Leigh, Fev, York, Toulouse, TWP, maybe a couple of others, held at 2 neutral venues. One rule though, any team competing in this comp must not use DR players.

Sounds like a well thought out plan , I don't really see how anybody could complain 

Certainly better than constantly changing on a weekly basis 

[Toby Chopra]

25 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

An 11 team comp next year seems the only likely scenario, again assuming Catalans can take part. Reasons as follows

1. even if given the green light there’s no way TWP can come up with a competitive squad in time for next season, getting smashed every week will harm the club irreparably

2. the same applies for any Championship team invited up to fill the space, they would be faced with the same lack of competitiveness or spending into oblivion to try to survive

3. actually having a team on a bye each week may help with any short notice game rearrangements as Covid is unlikely to just disappear.

Maybe the solution is that SL invites applications for the 12th place in 2022, every club submits a full business plan, all applications that pass the vetting process are then asked to compete against each other in a tournament held summer next year, winner to SL for 2022, plus if timed correctly it gives the winner the luxury of a full 6 months to recruit their SL squad. I know it sounds a bit crazy but it’s better than the so called franchise approach as it incorporates the on the field element, and should remove any team that doesn’t have a pot to ###### in, whilst also allowing clubs with ambition to stake their claim. Imagine a tournament comprising of Leigh, Fev, York, Toulouse, TWP, maybe a couple of others, held at 2 neutral venues. One rule though, any team competing in this comp must not use DR players.

Excellent plan. 

[Yosser]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/54761414

Carlo LiVolsi will underwrite losses if club readmitted to Super League

LiVolsi says he will confirm proof of his net worth to the RFL and Super League, but only if the Wolfpack get a majority of votes at Monday's meeting.

They estimate a turnover of £2m in 2021 rising to £5.4m in 2025, but with anticipated losses of £3.5m in the next three years.

 

[Rupert Prince]

3 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

So 30 odd Catalans' employees would up sticks and live away from their families and friends for 8-9months? Not going to happen.

Have you seen how 6 AFL teams decamped to Queensland? Have you seen how big a country Australia is?  What have Melbourne Storm been doing all these last few months?

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

4 minutes ago, Yosser said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/54761414

Carlo LiVolsi will underwrite losses if club readmitted to Super League

LiVolsi says he will confirm proof of his net worth to the RFL and Super League, but only if the Wolfpack get a majority of votes at Monday's meeting.

They estimate a turnover of £2m in 2021 rising to £5.4m in 2025, but with anticipated losses of £3.5m in the next three years.

 

And that's supposed to help prove they are credible and realistic?

[Rupert Prince]

1 hour ago, Oldbear said:

An 11 team comp next year seems the only likely scenario, again assuming Catalans can take part. Reasons as follows

1. even if given the green light there’s no way TWP can come up with a competitive squad in time for next season, getting smashed every week will harm the club irreparably

2. the same applies for any Championship team invited up to fill the space, they would be faced with the same lack of competitiveness or spending into oblivion to try to survive

3. actually having a team on a bye each week may help with any short notice game rearrangements as Covid is unlikely to just disappear.

Maybe the solution is that SL invites applications for the 12th place in 2022, every club submits a full business plan, all applications that pass the vetting process are then asked to compete against each other in a tournament held summer next year, winner to SL for 2022, plus if timed correctly it gives the winner the luxury of a full 6 months to recruit their SL squad. I know it sounds a bit crazy but it’s better than the so called franchise approach as it incorporates the on the field element, and should remove any team that doesn’t have a pot to ###### in, whilst also allowing clubs with ambition to stake their claim. Imagine a tournament comprising of Leigh, Fev, York, Toulouse, TWP, maybe a couple of others, held at 2 neutral venues. One rule though, any team competing in this comp must not use DR players.

Perhaps get Craig Revell Horwood and Bruno Tonioli to be judges.  

I apologise for by sarcasm.

But we are getting beyond the fantasy even of a vital RL issue being based on Mens Grooming Products.

Given that Toronto are in a worse state now than when they were first entered into League 1, but are still wanting the thick end of £2 million, can someone please tell me why this issue is being at all considered?

If, and its a big if, if one club has some available history for playing in Super League next season then I can only suggest London Broncos.

Whilst that goes on, or not, SL reviews its structure for 2022 onwards... and its long term future.

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

And that's supposed to help prove they are credible and realistic?

I think that's a dangerous criteria for almost any SL club and credible and realistic would apply to them too. I suspect none of them would have an owner of the net worth that requires an NDA! We all know the fragility of clubs dependent on owners who could walk away and if that is a problem it must be just as true of any where there is an owner.If we applied credible and realistic I suspect SL would have two teams left and could  play Fev.

[Scubby]

It will be ironic if the 11 clubs choose to punt TWP out and then one or two of them fall into financial meltdown over the coming months. Because I can't imagine the finances of 4-5 clubs are anything but perilous. 

[Oxford]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

It will be ironic if the 11 clubs choose to punt TWP out and then one or two of them fall into financial meltdown over the coming months. Because I can't imagine the finances of 4-5 clubs are anything but perilous. 

Most clubs are already in that red zone, and a depression the size of the one coming is likely to see more than 4-5 being there.

[Quolls2020]

1 hour ago, Yosser said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/54761414

Carlo LiVolsi will underwrite losses if club readmitted to Super League

LiVolsi says he will confirm proof of his net worth to the RFL and Super League, but only if the Wolfpack get a majority of votes at Monday's meeting.

They estimate a turnover of £2m in 2021 rising to £5.4m in 2025, but with anticipated losses of £3.5m in the next three years.

 

So he is going to prove he can afford his undertakings only AFTER SL has accepted he can afford his undertakings...huh?

[Oldbear]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Sounds like a well thought out plan , I don't really see how anybody could complain 

Certainly better than constantly changing on a weekly basis 

Probably then why it’s no chance of happening. I suggested this plan, which may or may not be crazy, because the way I see it if ANY team is invited to take up the 12th spot for next season they are on a hiding to nothing, little time to recruit a SL ready squad and probably forced to overpay for those players who as Dave T said, will be floating around. In fact the suspicious amongst us could say that any invite would purely be to protect the 11 incumbents since any 12th team brought in would be the odds on candidate for relegation. 

My idea of the mini comp for those teams interested, and financially capable stems from my suspicion that crowds may not be back in stadiums until early summer next year, which would create a major problem for the Championship meaning no comp, or a reduced comp at best, and at least with my idea the winner of the mini comp would be guaranteed to be promoted and not this semi regular farce of the Championship winner (or middle 8’s winner) being left to wait it out for SL to decide if they can be promoted, with each week of delay potentially impacting upon the available time to recruit players.

[Oldbear]

1 hour ago, Yosser said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/54761414

Carlo LiVolsi will underwrite losses if club readmitted to Super League

LiVolsi says he will confirm proof of his net worth to the RFL and Super League, but only if the Wolfpack get a majority of votes at Monday's meeting.

They estimate a turnover of £2m in 2021 rising to £5.4m in 2025, but with anticipated losses of £3.5m in the next three years.

 

Proof of net worth is only part of the equation though. What if he is totally able to fund the Wolfpack, but at the end of the season decides that SL has not helped him in his aim to promote his grooming products, does he stick with it or just walk away? My concern with relying on sugar daddies, especially hard nosed business types, is that their long term commitment needs to be ascertained as much as their net worth. Richard Branson is a good example of someone who had no problem funding the Broncos, but did not have the willingness to stay involved once he was not getting the business spin offs. I know nothing about LiVolsi, but if his plan is to purely use TWP to promote his grooming products what happens if that plan does not bear the fruit he anticipates, it won’t matter how rich he is if he has no interest in either TWP or the sport in general, he will just walk away .