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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread


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4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

True, though my comments were actually aimed at Elstone specifically, which is just sheer skepticism and dislike rather than self interest. If Elstone had liked Toronto conceptually, I think he'd have got over stuff. Because he didn't, every Toronto difficulty became a handy obstacle to build on for Elstone. Everything from fixture scheduling, finances over covid, Warriors style security funding, everything is now not a hurdle to help a member club over but a way to reinforce your own viewpoint.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m no fan of Elstone, but I sometimes wonder how much of what he has said is actually him, or him saying things to reflect the view of the clubs who after all appointed him. If the latter is the case then he becomes the convenient fall guy and the clubs generally carry on as before. On the other hand if those really were his opinions then I totally agree with your point.

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I am devastated by todays decision.Obviously I think its wrong but I think it shows the narrow minded thinking of most super league clubs.I very much doubt the Wolfpack will ever be back as I don't se

Rugby League as a sport - fans, owners, administrators, the lot - gets what it deserves. There was an opportunity here, an owner who's spent £10m, a growing fanbase and a very attractive market,

To avoid the forum being swamped with dozens of individual threads about Toronto which generally all end up heading down the same rabbit hole eventually anyway, we're opening this general discussion t

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1 hour ago, Oldbear said:

Don’t get me wrong, I’m no fan of Elstone, but I sometimes wonder how much of what he has said is actually him, or him saying things to reflect the view of the clubs who after all appointed him. If the latter is the case then he becomes the convenient fall guy and the clubs generally carry on as before. On the other hand if those really were his opinions then I totally agree with your point.

When he made his one fact finding trip (he didnt bother making the effort to come to the Ch GF 2019 like the Rhinos boss) he was effusive about the experience but soon changed his tune perhaps anticipating which way the wind was blowing but that is why I take issue with his leadership or rather lack of it. If he believed NA expansion had a future a proper leader should convince wafflers of the potential not simply go along with the crowd. 

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22 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

When he made his one fact finding trip (he didnt bother making the effort to come to the Ch GF 2019 like the Rhinos boss) he was effusive about the experience but soon changed his tune perhaps anticipating which way the wind was blowing but that is why I take issue with his leadership or rather lack of it. If he believed NA expansion had a future a proper leader should convince wafflers of the potential not simply go along with the crowd. 

That would be a feat akin to getting turkeys to vote for Christmas though.  The clubs which voted against reinstating Toronto were mostly those whose SL status would be threatened by Toronto and then in time Ottawa and New York if they both get off the ground.  A lot more TV money would be needed to sustain any more than 12 teams at the top and with less money reportedly on the horizon in the next contract they're all likely very nervous now.

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9 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Don’t get me wrong, I’m no fan of Elstone, but I sometimes wonder how much of what he has said is actually him, or him saying things to reflect the view of the clubs who after all appointed him. If the latter is the case then he becomes the convenient fall guy and the clubs generally carry on as before. On the other hand if those really were his opinions then I totally agree with your point.

Listening to his comments on the recent 5 Live podcast, plus everything else, I'd say it was his opinion.

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1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Listening to his comments on the recent 5 Live podcast, plus everything else, I'd say it was his opinion.

Yes, I have no doubt Elstone gives his own opinion on stuff like this. It isn't that hard to believe that he doesn't buy it. 

It should also be remembered that he was a key player in the PSG debacle, he does have some history in this kind of thing.

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11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yes, I have no doubt Elstone gives his own opinion on stuff like this. It isn't that hard to believe that he doesn't buy it. 

It should also be remembered that he was a key player in the PSG debacle, he does have some history in this kind of thing.

I honestly think the PSG experience has scarred him for life.

I think its quite easy to see what he's doubtful of, but much harder to work out what he is hopeful for going forward.

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21 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I honestly think the PSG experience has scarred him for life.

I think its quite easy to see what he's doubtful of, but much harder to work out what he is hopeful for going forward.

I agree.

I think if we had a stated strategy about us looking to grow across the UK and Europe people would probably be less miffed about TWP, but as things stand, it can be difficult to see where the next expansion opportunity is going to come from. 

In reality, I think it should probably be Toulouse, Newcastle and a revitalised London strategy, as well as increased efforts across secondary targets like South Wales, Bristol, Sheffield, Liverpool etc. 

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20 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I agree.

I think if we had a stated strategy about us looking to grow across the UK and Europe people would probably be less miffed about TWP, but as things stand, it can be difficult to see where the next expansion opportunity is going to come from. 

In reality, I think it should probably be Toulouse, Newcastle and a revitalised London strategy, as well as increased efforts across secondary targets like South Wales, Bristol, Sheffield, Liverpool etc. 

Absolutely mate. Without a strongish or even any commitment to "expansion but not Toronto Wolfpack" sort of statement there is just a bit of a void. I don't know if Elstone or anyone in the Super League office has media/political experience, but they aren't leading the narrative.

I agree that Newcastle and London should be the primary English targets right now, and are perhaps why Elstone wants Private Equity money. Besides those secondary areas you mention I'd be looking at Coventry too and even a return to Oxford or Gloucester. The World Cup is going to be a major boost and with England playing in no traditional heartland areas and something has to follow that up for legacy - my bug bears of Bristol in 2013 and Coventry in 2016 can't be repeated! 

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57 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think its quite easy to see what he's doubtful of, but much harder to work out what he is hopeful for going forward.

That's a really good assessment Tommy and I thought you'd got lost from the political thread for a moment.

Our sport is now retractionist and reductionist in make-up, processes & outlook. Anyone interested in expanding the game may have popped their clogs before this turns full circle again. But it's an ill wind and a goodly percentage of us are happy with these circumstances.

The good news from the WC organisers must be applauded, lauded and welcomed but with the caveat that little will come from it all if that's the way we're going to proceed.

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Oxford said:

That's a really good assessment Tommy and I thought you'd got lost from the political thread for a moment.

Our sport is now retractionist and reductionist in make-up, processes & outlook. Anyone interested in expanding the game may have popped their clogs before this turns full circle again. But it's an ill wind and a goodly percentage of us are happy with these circumstances.

The good news from the WC organisers must be applauded, lauded and welcomed but with the caveat that little will come from it all if that's the way we're going to proceed.

 

To be honest I think he needs to come out with a stated vision not just what he is sceptical of, that is far too easy. In fairness, Dave Woods pressed him on this with regards to the 12th club and didn't let him get away with saying "I should remain impartial" by directly saying "you weren't impartial on Toronto so why now?"

I do think Elstone has a vision, I do think it might be a bit limited or lacking in ambition, but none of us can know until he actually says something.

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17 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Absolutely mate. Without a strongish or even any commitment to "expansion but not Toronto Wolfpack" sort of statement there is just a bit of a void. I don't know if Elstone or anyone in the Super League office has media/political experience, but they aren't leading the narrative.

I agree that Newcastle and London should be the primary English targets right now, and are perhaps why Elstone wants Private Equity money. Besides those secondary areas you mention I'd be looking at Coventry too and even a return to Oxford or Gloucester. The World Cup is going to be a major boost and with England playing in no traditional heartland areas and something has to follow that up for legacy - my bug bears of Bristol in 2013 and Coventry in 2016 can't be repeated! 

On that note, they really need to give Sheffield a boost. World Cup match and Eagles being back in the city... give it a boost and some help and see what can happen. If nothing does then perhaps it is time to just let sheffield be what it is (an ok champ club) and move the emphasis on.. but give it a boost now and maybe it can build. 

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12 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

To be honest I think he needs to come out with a stated vision not just what he is sceptical of, that is far too easy. In fairness, Dave Woods pressed him on this with regards to the 12th club and didn't let him get away with saying "I should remain impartial" by directly saying "you weren't impartial on Toronto so why now?"

I do think Elstone has a vision, I do think it might be a bit limited or lacking in ambition, but none of us can know until he actually says something.

The term vision and TGG in the same sentence without any negative connectives is the hardest thing to achieve.

I think we tend to forget that Elstone to has balance a lot of things like any head of an organisation and it should be remembered that he can't sack chairmen till he gets the result he wants as happens in industry.

And the one thing that all the clubs, who essentially destroyed the hope of expansion forever. is that they are right to be frightened to death of the economic disaster that's about to take place.

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6 minutes ago, RP London said:

On that note, they really need to give Sheffield a boost. World Cup match and Eagles being back in the city... give it a boost and some help and see what can happen. If nothing does then perhaps it is time to just let sheffield be what it is (an ok champ club) and move the emphasis on.. but give it a boost now and maybe it can build. 

Absolutely. Tbf Newcastle Thunder, Sheffield Eagles, Coventry Bears, London Broncos and Skolars, (even St Helens, Warrington and Wigan if you want to be pedantic) all have major level games on their doorsteps with opportunities to grow awareness and appeal. Its a shame there's no major Middlesbrough activity to build upon that game, but the rest have great opportunities just to get themselves out there.

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1 hour ago, Oxford said:

The term vision and TGG in the same sentence without any negative connectives is the hardest thing to achieve.

I think we tend to forget that Elstone to has balance a lot of things like any head of an organisation and it should be remembered that he can't sack chairmen till he gets the result he wants as happens in industry.

And the one thing that all the clubs, who essentially destroyed the hope of expansion forever. is that they are right to be frightened to death of the economic disaster that's about to take place.

With Elstones vision some clubs that are in Super League won't be in it come the 2023 season as they will fail the criteria

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3 minutes ago, lucky 7 said:

With Elstones vision some clubs that are in Super League won't be in it come the 2023 season as they will fail the criteria

I think you may be confusing vision with short-term decision there.

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, lucky 7 said:

With Elstones vision some clubs that are in Super League won't be in it come the 2023 season as they will fail the criteria

what criteria? unless you mean the criteria being win more matches than 1 other team... we're back to P&R next year

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1 minute ago, RP London said:

what criteria? unless you mean the criteria being win more matches than 1 other team... we're back to P&R next year

The criteria that is covert at the moment which will reveal a 10 club super league which will have to happen with a reduced TV contract. In real terms the big clubs wont want a reduction in their TV funding so they unload 2 teams and hang to more of that money

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1 hour ago, lucky 7 said:

The criteria that is covert at the moment which will reveal a 10 club super league which will have to happen with a reduced TV contract. In real terms the big clubs wont want a reduction in their TV funding so they unload 2 teams and hang to more of that money

ah ok... the made up one.. 

lots of things might happen from now till then but no real point getting too ahead of yourself. 

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1 hour ago, lucky 7 said:

3 years will quickly come around and watch certain clubs quell then

If they are culled it will be for short term gain and not long term vision.

Do you have a list, off the top of your head?

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