Referee bashing-get it stopped!

[Chrispmartha]

11 minutes ago, LR23 said:

For balance, it wasn't about one decision. I saw it live and thought the Evalds one was close so wasn't too bothered about it. Sections of the crowd went overboard probably because of the string of strange decisions that went before that one.

Watson specifically mentioned that incident though and said it was wrong and it turned the game in Leeds favour, which it probably did but it was through good play from Leeds not a bad decision from the ref- the ref got more right than he got wrong and Watsons rant wasn’t justified 

[LR23]

Just now, Chrispmartha said:

Watson specifically mentioned that incident though and said it was wrong - it wasn’t, the ref got more right than he got wrong and Watsons rant wasn’t justified 

I agree about the rant not being justified - calling a referees integrity/ability into question like that never is. The ref probably did get more right than he got wrong but it was close - he was very, very poor but he's 25 (I think) so after 80 minutes of abuse from the crowd doesn't need the coach wading in. But that shouldn't exempt him from reasonable criticism.

[The Future is League]

The RFL are still looking for match officials if anybody thinks they can do better

[LeeF]

6 hours ago, LR23 said:

I agree about the rant not being justified - calling a referees integrity/ability into question like that never is. The ref probably did get more right than he got wrong but it was close - he was very, very poor but he's 25 (I think) so after 80 minutes of abuse from the crowd doesn't need the coach wading in. But that shouldn't exempt him from reasonable criticism.

On what basis do you think he was poor? Ideally with specific examples & clips would be useful but just the specific examples will suffice 

I bet you that he got a lot more right than wrong and that it wasn’t even close.

On the one specific example provided so far he got the decision spot on after one view, at full speed & from one angle. The Coach didn’t get it correct despite multiple viewings, slowed down & from more than one angle. 

His age is a smokescreen. At 25 he could have more than 12 years refereeing experience and you get to SL by being very good at your job. 

Chances are that he won’t have heard the majority of the abuse or even any of it. You just don’t during games.

[LR23]

2 hours ago, LeeF said:

On what basis do you think he was poor? Ideally with specific examples & clips would be useful but just the specific examples will suffice 

I bet you that he got a lot more right than wrong and that it wasn’t even close.

On the one specific example provided so far he got the decision spot on after one view, at full speed & from one angle. The Coach didn’t get it correct despite multiple viewings, slowed down & from more than one angle. 

His age is a smokescreen. At 25 he could have more than 12 years refereeing experience and you get to SL by being very good at your job. 

Chances are that he won’t have heard the majority of the abuse or even any of it. You just don’t during games.

I’m not pointing out every mistake on a ‘ref bashing’ thread - I’ve covered it elsewhere and have nothing against the bloke so don’t need to keep going over it. I’ve watched the full game back and my opinion hasn’t changed though. I’m not saying he’s a bad ref I’m just saying he had a bad performance. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[LeeF]

9 hours ago, LR23 said:

I’m not pointing out every mistake on a ‘ref bashing’ thread - I’ve covered it elsewhere and have nothing against the bloke so don’t need to keep going over it. I’ve watched the full game back and my opinion hasn’t changed though. I’m not saying he’s a bad ref I’m just saying he had a bad performance. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Try pointing out some or maybe point me in the direction of where you’ve covered it elsewhere.

You are entitled to your opinion of course you are but it would be interesting to know exactly how you reached it

[meast]

When i see or hear of fans claiming a ref had a poor game, how do you define a poor game?

If he got most of the decisions correct, which referee's usually do and he was able to make decisions based on what he see in a split second, ensures the game is played correctly and in the right manner, then that is a good game

If he gets lots of basic things wrong, needs to be helped with making a decision and generally allows mayhem to ensue and loses control, then that is a bad game,a poor ref, you might say.

I know everyone has differing opinions on what is good and what isn't, but i can probably hazard a guess that out of 100 games of RL, the former reigns in 99 of them.

We, as fans, and coaches and players too are fairly blinkered, either by club loyalty or by mindset, most of the time, a referee has a good game, it's usually after a defeat where the referee is usually seen to have had a bad game.

I'm not saying they don't have bad games, I have seen games involving Huddersfield recently where both sets of fans were less than impressed with a refereeing performance, the powers that be thought so too as he spent the few weeks after in the lower leagues, I'm not saying referee's can't or don't have bad games just that it's extremely rare and that we are usually blinkered if we think they are poor etc.

[LeeF]

54 minutes ago, meast said:

When i see or hear of fans claiming a ref had a poor game, how do you define a poor game?

If he got most of the decisions correct, which referee's usually do and he was able to make decisions based on what he see in a split second, ensures the game is played correctly and in the right manner, then that is a good game

If he gets lots of basic things wrong, needs to be helped with making a decision and generally allows mayhem to ensue and loses control, then that is a bad game,a poor ref, you might say.

I know everyone has differing opinions on what is good and what isn't, but i can probably hazard a guess that out of 100 games of RL, the former reigns in 99 of them.

We, as fans, and coaches and players too are fairly blinkered, either by club loyalty or by mindset, most of the time, a referee has a good game, it's usually after a defeat where the referee is usually seen to have had a bad game.

I'm not saying they don't have bad games, I have seen games involving Huddersfield recently where both sets of fans were less than impressed with a refereeing performance, the powers that be thought so too as he spent the few weeks after in the lower leagues, I'm not saying referee's can't or don't have bad games just that it's extremely rare and that we are usually blinkered if we think they are poor etc.

It’s also interesting that when people call out referees for having “poor games” they don’t usually support these comments with specific examples

[LR23]

47 minutes ago, LeeF said:

It’s also interesting that when people call out referees for having “poor games” they don’t usually support these comments with specific examples

if you are referring to me, I've got plenty but I've already said why I'm not going over it again. I'm sure you value your own opinion more than some anonymous poster so you are free to watch the game if you wish.

I've repeatedly said I don't support abuse of referees or managers calling them out but this thread seems to be saying we can't comment on referees at all unless we have a detailed analysis in our back pocket or a career in refereeing. We pay our money to be entertained at a game so should expect people to have opinions on that game - from the matchday experience all the way down to the referee.

If someone says a player has been poor you wouldn't ask for a minute by minute breakdown of all the things that player did wrong. Also if someone criticises the RFL you wouldn't get people saying that they are in no position to comment unless they have run a sporting organisation. Referees shouldn't face abuse but they also shouldn't be exempt from paying punter's opinions (within reason).

[LeeF]

40 minutes ago, LR23 said:

if you are referring to me, I've got plenty but I've already said why I'm not going over it again. I'm sure you value your own opinion more than some anonymous poster so you are free to watch the game if you wish.

I've repeatedly said I don't support abuse of referees or managers calling them out but this thread seems to be saying we can't comment on referees at all unless we have a detailed analysis in our back pocket or a career in refereeing. We pay our money to be entertained at a game so should expect people to have opinions on that game - from the matchday experience all the way down to the referee.

If someone says a player has been poor you wouldn't ask for a minute by minute breakdown of all the things that player did wrong. Also if someone criticises the RFL you wouldn't get people saying that they are in no position to comment unless they have run a sporting organisation. Referees shouldn't face abuse but they also shouldn't be exempt from paying punter's opinions (within reason).

Not referring to just you but it is a very common occurrence of no evidence being provided to support the usually completely incorrect “poor refereeing performance “ statements.

I politely asked for you to either support your comment or to point me as to where you originally posted your comments along with the specific examples.  You have declined to do the former & ignored the latter. Your choice.

As I have posted on this thread & numerous times on this forum I have no issue with criticism of referees providing it is not just ranting and is based on some semblance of the truth.

The best way being to use supporting specific examples. You should also listen to people who are more knowledgeable about the requirements or who have an informed opinion especially if it is opposite to your way of thinking. The same applies to all aspects of this great game.

My take on people who rant without evidence is that they clearly know nothing and embarrass themselves usually on a very regular basis

[LeeF]

48 minutes ago, LR23 said:

if you are referring to me, I've got plenty but I've already said why I'm not going over it again. I'm sure you value your own opinion more than some anonymous poster so you are free to watch the game if you wish.

I've repeatedly said I don't support abuse of referees or managers calling them out but this thread seems to be saying we can't comment on referees at all unless we have a detailed analysis in our back pocket or a career in refereeing. We pay our money to be entertained at a game so should expect people to have opinions on that game - from the matchday experience all the way down to the referee.

If someone says a player has been poor you wouldn't ask for a minute by minute breakdown of all the things that player did wrong. Also if someone criticises the RFL you wouldn't get people saying that they are in no position to comment unless they have run a sporting organisation. Referees shouldn't face abuse but they also shouldn't be exempt from paying punter's opinions (within reason).

I would like some specific examples though & not just a rant or a “x was poor all game” comment which on its own is meaningless

[LR23]

20 minutes ago, LeeF said:

I would like some specific examples though & not just a rant or a “x was poor all game” comment which on its own is meaningless

 

24 minutes ago, LeeF said:

Not referring to just you but it is a very common occurrence of no evidence being provided to support the usually completely incorrect “poor refereeing performance “ statements.

I politely asked for you to either support your comment or to point me as to where you originally posted your comments along with the specific examples.  You have declined to do the former & ignored the latter. Your choice.

As I have posted on this thread & numerous times on this forum I have no issue with criticism of referees providing it is not just ranting and is based on some semblance of the truth.

The best way being to use supporting specific examples. You should also listen to people who are more knowledgeable about the requirements or who have an informed opinion especially if it is opposite to your way of thinking. The same applies to all aspects of this great game.

My take on people who rant without evidence is that they clearly know nothing and embarrass themselves usually on a very regular basis

At no point have I ever 'ranted' about a referee (well maybe in my youth). I even spent the week before defending Child as I thought he had a decent game but the usual suspects on Twitter were at his throat. I went back and watched the game again this week to see if my views on the day were right - that is more than the majority bothered to do. You seem to be mistaking me for one of that group when I'm anything but.

I do listen to the experts and have done for many, many years. I've engaged a few times with Ian Smith on Twitter - I find his analysis of some big decisions very insightful. I'm also not daft so can formulate a balanced opinion of my own after all these years watching the game. Next time someone criticises a player or the RFL I'll be expecting you to chip in asking for a CV and a rundown of examples.

My point is that while I agree uninformed ref rants are far too common, you can't label every comment about a referee as an uninformed rant.

[LeeF]

46 minutes ago, LR23 said:

 

At no point have I ever 'ranted' about a referee (well maybe in my youth). I even spent the week before defending Child as I thought he had a decent game but the usual suspects on Twitter were at his throat. I went back and watched the game again this week to see if my views on the day were right - that is more than the majority bothered to do. You seem to be mistaking me for one of that group when I'm anything but.

I do listen to the experts and have done for many, many years. I've engaged a few times with Ian Smith on Twitter - I find his analysis of some big decisions very insightful. I'm also not daft so can formulate a balanced opinion of my own after all these years watching the game. Next time someone criticises a player or the RFL I'll be expecting you to chip in asking for a CV and a rundown of examples.

My point is that while I agree uninformed ref rants are far too common, you can't label every comment about a referee as an uninformed rant.

Good to hear about you defending James Child who does get a lot of unwarranted stick which is mostly completely undeserved 

Ian Smith is a great bloke in my dealings with him. Always approachable 

Balanced opinions are welcome and I haven't asked for yours or anyone else's CV. All I ever want are specific examples not general rants as I keep saying and I have never posted that every comment is an uninformed rant

[daz39]

22 hours ago, meast said:

When i see or hear of fans claiming a ref had a poor game, how do you define a poor game?

If he got most of the decisions correct, which referee's usually do and he was able to make decisions based on what he see in a split second, ensures the game is played correctly and in the right manner, then that is a good game

If he gets lots of basic things wrong, needs to be helped with making a decision and generally allows mayhem to ensue and loses control, then that is a bad game,a poor ref, you might say.

I know everyone has differing opinions on what is good and what isn't, but i can probably hazard a guess that out of 100 games of RL, the former reigns in 99 of them.

We, as fans, and coaches and players too are fairly blinkered, either by club loyalty or by mindset, most of the time, a referee has a good game, it's usually after a defeat where the referee is usually seen to have had a bad game.

I'm not saying they don't have bad games, I have seen games involving Huddersfield recently where both sets of fans were less than impressed with a refereeing performance, the powers that be thought so too as he spent the few weeks after in the lower leagues, I'm not saying referee's can't or don't have bad games just that it's extremely rare and that we are usually blinkered if we think they are poor etc.

Easy, if the ref didn't give decisions the crowd THOUGHT he should have! As most of them have absolutely no idea about the rules etc they scream for a penalty if they think they should have one or want one to alleviate pressure on their team and when it doesn't come they interpret that as the ref 'cheating'.

 

Most fans at most games are complete and utter clowns when it comes to understanding the game and it's rules.

Hull Kr fans are particularly embarrasing in this department.

[costa]

Interesting to note that Marcus Griffiths has been rewarded with the plum TV game on Saturday, Toronto v St Helens.

 

[LR23]

3 minutes ago, costa said:

Interesting to note that Marcus Griffiths has been rewarded with the plum TV game on Saturday, Toronto v St Helens.

 

Good. Too often you see referees have one bad game or well publicised criticism and then get binned which hardly makes them feel supported. See Child after the Cats v Wire game and Hicks after the CC final as examples.

[costa]

1 hour ago, LR23 said:

Good. Too often you see referees have one bad game or well publicised criticism and then get binned which hardly makes them feel supported. See Child after the Cats v Wire game and Hicks after the CC final as examples.

My point is that he must have been considered to have had a good game at Salford.

He would not be paraded on a very public game if it was felt he was poor last week. 

[LeeF]

7 hours ago, costa said:

My point is that he must have been considered to have had a good game at Salford.

He would not be paraded on a very public game if it was felt he was poor last week. 

Spot on

[costa]

Ian Watson fined.

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/56483/statement--salford-red-devils 

 

[LR23]

29 minutes ago, costa said:

Ian Watson fined.

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/56483/statement--salford-red-devils 

 

Finally got to speak to someone at the RFL about refereeing and all for a small fee. 

[Angelic Cynic]

On 28/02/2020 at 10:14, LR23 said:

Good. Too often you see referees have one bad game or well publicised criticism and then get binned which hardly makes them feel supported. See Child after the Cats v Wire game and Hicks after the CC final as examples.

  When should I expect to see referee Hicks in charge of a St Helens game,again?

  Or do the owners of Super League clubs dictate to the RFL who is allocated to their games?

   It hardly suggests support for the officials by the governing body;or the elite.  

[Robthegasman]

I must admit as a fan I once lost it at a match day official(the linesman)and I called him a Neo Nazi Zionist fascist ####,as my team were at this match just getting constantly hammered by the officials with perfectly legitimate tries being disallowed and the opposing team so it seemed getting away with murder.

And when officials too many times get it wrong is it any wonder why people,especially coaches snap at them and attack them in their match day interviews etc.And of course anyone can make a mistake but these officials seem to make too many yet they are untouchable and unaccountable.

[Red Willow]

Watson was rightly fined a nominal amount, however in his defence the club has written to Mr Ganson seeking clarification both last season and this season without a response from the Head of refs.

This is a huge failing, there has to be a dialogue between the clubs and the officials. This only seems to happen with certain clubs. It isn't a new problem either. Clubs should be able to question a referees performance (just not in public)

 

My favourite ref' story was when Karl Harrison was in charge and was particularly irate about a ref's performance, the RFL sent a ref to the club, the rep spent about 15 mins pointing out how the team in red had committed offences. Karl nodded but explained Salford were playing in blue and none of the decisions mentioned had been given for Salford.

[Click]

I would like to commend the refs at times for smarting up more at the antics of some players at the PTB - They're not going to catch everything, but they aren't buying the BS from some players anymore.

One example is Charnley who whenever he can will try and trap the defender in the tackle with him and slow it down to try and get a penalty - It worked a few years ago, and they started wising up to it last year, but this year they have really noticed it. Almost every tackle you hear the referee shouting at him "You're holding him in Josh".

I know other players do it as well, but seeing the game tonight Charnley seems like a good example.

[unapologetic pedant]

On 28/02/2020 at 09:48, daz39 said:

Easy, if the ref didn't give decisions the crowd THOUGHT he should have! As most of them have absolutely no idea about the rules etc they scream for a penalty if they think they should have one or want one to alleviate pressure on their team and when it doesn't come they interpret that as the ref 'cheating'.

 

Most fans at most games are complete and utter clowns when it comes to understanding the game and it's rules.

Hull Kr fans are particularly embarrasing in this department.

How did we arrive at a point where a crowd of adults shout, "CHEAT CHEAT CHEAT" with apparently no awareness of how puerile and embarrassing this is? Is this behaviour likely to attract new fans? Do they care?