Scotland RL

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

There’s a massive difference as far as I can see, but happy to agree to differ. 

I think we'll have to. I fail to see any difference whatsoever. There could be plenty of that Tongan team who would jump at the chance to play for Australia if the opportunity came about - we just don't know, and I'm not going to let it bother me either. Just the same as I won't let it bother me with Scotland - I just want to see more competitive international teams playing each other.

[Eddie]

1 minute ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I think we'll have to. I fail to see any difference whatsoever. There could be plenty of that Tongan team who would jump at the chance to play for Australia if the opportunity came about - we just don't know, and I'm not going to let it bother me either. Just the same as I won't let it bother me with Scotland - I just want to see more competitive international teams playing each other.

There is a Tongan diaspora in Aus and NZ that the Tongan national team clearly represent, as evidenced by their fanatical support when Tonga play in those countries. The same can’t be said of people with Scottish grandparents living in England. The two situations are different. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

10 minutes ago, Eddie said:

There is a Tongan diaspora in Aus and NZ that the Tongan national team clearly represent, as evidenced by their fanatical support when Tonga play in those countries. The same can’t be said of people with Scottish grandparents living in England. The two situations are different. 

There's almost a million Scottish ex-pats living in England. Would you prefer it if they all wore a kilt and looked like this?

 

[Eddie]

4 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

There's almost a million Scottish ex-pats living in England. Would you prefer it if they all wore a kilt and looked like this?

 

I couldn’t care less what they do, but it’s evident that they don’t have the same mass attachment to Scotland as Tongan heritage people in Australia and NZ have. 

[The Frying Scotsman]

15 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I think we'll have to. I fail to see any difference whatsoever. There could be plenty of that Tongan team who would jump at the chance to play for Australia if the opportunity came about

I have no idea about the players' motivations, but there is a massive difference with regard to the fans. 

The Tongan public accept these guys as Tongans and fully get behind them. Why? Because they "are" Tongan, regardless of birthplace really. By that I mean they speak Tongan, are ethnically Polynesian, and often speak their English with a Tongan accent. Tongan people like their Rugby League, and the team sits well within that public outlook. 

The Scottish public really CGAF about a bunch of guys from Yorkshire pretending to be Scottish. As you say, it COULD lead to some competitive games if the team is strong enough, but the fact they play home games in England while there are plenty of acceptable Stadia in Scotland 200 miles away says it all really. Nobody in Scotland could care less. Furthermore, Scottish people in England don't live in a recognisable "community" of their own, and don't follow Rugby League in any discernable numbers. 

Trying to equate the 2 is kind of laughable IMO. 

 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

43 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

I have no idea about the players' motivations, but there is a massive difference with regard to the fans. 

The Tongan public accept these guys as Tongans and fully get behind them. Why? Because they "are" Tongan, regardless of birthplace really. 

Is it that? Or is it because they live in a country where rugby league is massive, and loads of people with Tongan heritage play it, and therefore it captures the imagination of the Tongan ex-pat population?

44 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

The Scottish public really CGAF about a bunch of guys from Yorkshire pretending to be Scottish.

Is it that? Or is it because they live in a country where rugby league barely registers in the media whatsoever?

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

51 minutes ago, Eddie said:

it’s evident that they don’t have the same mass attachment to Scotland as Tongan heritage people in Australia and NZ have. 

What evidence do you base that on?

[Eddie]

8 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

What evidence do you base that on?

I live in England and can observe what it’s like here. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

I have no idea about the players' motivations, but there is a massive difference with regard to the fans. 

The Tongan public accept these guys as Tongans and fully get behind them. Why? Because they "are" Tongan, regardless of birthplace really. By that I mean they speak Tongan, are ethnically Polynesian, and often speak their English with a Tongan accent. Tongan people like their Rugby League, and the team sits well within that public outlook. 

The Scottish public really CGAF about a bunch of guys from Yorkshire pretending to be Scottish. As you say, it COULD lead to some competitive games if the team is strong enough, but the fact they play home games in England while there are plenty of acceptable Stadia in Scotland 200 miles away says it all really. Nobody in Scotland could care less. Furthermore, Scottish people in England don't live in a recognisable "community" of their own, and don't follow Rugby League in any discernable numbers. 

Trying to equate the 2 is kind of laughable IMO. 

 

They don't play home games in England. I've watched Scotland play in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Galashiels, plus the 9s in Cumbernauld. 

Now, where do Tonga and Samoa play their home games? 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Dave T

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Is it that? Or is it because they live in a country where rugby league is massive, and loads of people with Tongan heritage play it, and therefore it captures the imagination of the Tongan ex-pat population?

Is it that? Or is it because they live in a country where rugby league barely registers in the media whatsoever?

Spot on. Its a bit odd to suggest that a Tongan RL player born in Sydney representing his grandparents birthplace is any different to a Scotland RL player born in Dewsbury representing his grandparents birthplace. 

And we have seen players play for the likes of Samoa and then jump ship to the Kiwis before, there is no difference. 

[The Frying Scotsman]

20 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

 

Is it that? Or is it because they live in a country where rugby league barely registers in the media whatsoever?

No. It's because the majority of us CGAF about a bunch of guys from Yorkshire pretending to be Scottish. 

Like I said already. 

[The Frying Scotsman]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

They don't play home games in England. I've watched Scotland play in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Galashiels, plus the 9s in Cumbernauld. 

 

They do really though. Especially if they want a crowd, and don't want it to look ridiculous on TV/to the public.

They had about 200 folk watching them at Gala, and the same at Lochinch.

They played their 2016 4 Nations games at Whitehaven and Hull KR - and the England game was (correctly) played in England as well. 

Any "big" games in the UK, they play in England.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

1 hour ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

No. It's because the majority of us CGAF about a bunch of guys from Yorkshire pretending to be Scottish. 

There seems to have been plenty of interest in Scotland's 6 Nations performance despite many of their squad not being born in Scotland. Likewise, there was loads of hype around Scotland qualifying for the World Cup despite a quarter of the squad not being born in Scotland. 

The main reason the majority of Scots are not interested in the Scotland RL team is because they're not interested in RL full stop. Surely you're not suggesting that if Scotland RL picked a team full of Scottish born players that they would suddenly become extremely popular?

[The Frying Scotsman]

46 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Surely you're not suggesting that if Scotland RL picked a team full of Scottish born players that they would suddenly become extremely popular?

Of course not.  I never said anything like that.

Union is really well marketed here at international level. It is also competitive, so Scotland can win close games against higher ranked countries.

Scotland RL is seen as a bunch of English people playing a foreign sport. The union team will never realistically be perceived as that. 

I know people in Scotland who like Rugby League. They have zero interest though in going to watch 13 guys from Bradford giving it "Eey ooop... Me granny were Scotch... I think." That's why they get 200 people at a home game. 

I notice you have "geek" in your name, and am not sure if it is that which makes it difficult for you to understand this. Tongan Rugby League players resonate well with the Tongan public on NZ and Tonga, and are a source of national pride.  Nobody in Scotland knows or cares who Danny Brough is, or can be bothered to support a bunch of English people playing what they perceive to be an English sport. They could have beaten NZ that night at Workington... And still nobody would have cared. 

You keep saying it doesn't bother you, yet you keep trying to force your (bizarre) view on the rest of us. 

[Keith989]

1 hour ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Of course not.  I never said anything like that.

Union is really well marketed here at international level. It is also competitive, so Scotland can win close games against higher ranked countries.

Scotland RL is seen as a bunch of English people playing a foreign sport. The union team will never realistically be perceived as that. 

I know people in Scotland who like Rugby League. They have zero interest though in going to watch 13 guys from Bradford giving it "Eey ooop... Me granny were Scotch... I think." That's why they get 200 people at a home game. 

I notice you have "geek" in your name, and am not sure if it is that which makes it difficult for you to understand this. Tongan Rugby League players resonate well with the Tongan public on NZ and Tonga, and are a source of national pride.  Nobody in Scotland knows or cares who Danny Brough is, or can be bothered to support a bunch of English people playing what they perceive to be an English sport. They could have beaten NZ that night at Workington... And still nobody would have cared. 

You keep saying it doesn't bother you, yet you keep trying to force your (bizarre) view on the rest of us. 

This is pretty much how it is in Ireland too. What can RL do to shake this imagine? I think having a certain amount of domestic players would help, but to be honest it's so engrained now it'll be tough.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Keith989

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

5 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Of course not.  I never said anything like that.

Union is really well marketed here at international level. It is also competitive, so Scotland can win close games against higher ranked countries.

Scotland RL is seen as a bunch of English people playing a foreign sport. The union team will never realistically be perceived as that. 

I know people in Scotland who like Rugby League. They have zero interest though in going to watch 13 guys from Bradford giving it "Eey ooop... Me granny were Scotch... I think." That's why they get 200 people at a home game. 

I notice you have "geek" in your name, and am not sure if it is that which makes it difficult for you to understand this. Tongan Rugby League players resonate well with the Tongan public on NZ and Tonga, and are a source of national pride.  Nobody in Scotland knows or cares who Danny Brough is, or can be bothered to support a bunch of English people playing what they perceive to be an English sport. They could have beaten NZ that night at Workington... And still nobody would have cared. 

You keep saying it doesn't bother you, yet you keep trying to force your (bizarre) view on the rest of us. 

How many players in Scotland’s Six Nations squad were born outside Scotland? I can’t remember the number but it was a lot. 

I think the difference with Tonga is that there are plenty of Rugby League fans with Tongan heritage whereas there are not plenty of Rugby League fans with Scottish heritage. That’s the only reason Tonga have the support they do at Internationals and Scotland don’t. Oh and Tonga have recently become one of the best International sides in the World, if Scotland Rugby League were to beat England, New Zealand and Australia this year I’m sure there’d be plenty interested in going to watch them.

[Copa]

11 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I think the difference with Tonga is that there are plenty of Rugby League fans with Tongan heritage whereas there are not plenty of Rugby League fans with Scottish heritage.

Tongans also have a view of identity that isn’t confined to national borders. Born in Sydney to Tongan parents, you’re Tongan (and Australian).

Edited March 31, 2021 by Copa

[Dave T]

9 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

They do really though. Especially if they want a crowd, and don't want it to look ridiculous on TV/to the public.

They had about 200 folk watching them at Gala, and the same at Lochinch.

They played their 2016 4 Nations games at Whitehaven and Hull KR - and the England game was (correctly) played in England as well. 

Any "big" games in the UK, they play in England.

No, this isn't true. 

The crowd peaked at around 1800 at Gala and people were far more respectful than you are of their efforts. 

They don't get home games in the 4N. It was an RFL tournament and they choose where the games are. It is also well documented that Glasgow was lined up but fell through due to stadium issues. 

[Dave T]

7 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Of course not.  I never said anything like that.

Union is really well marketed here at international level. It is also competitive, so Scotland can win close games against higher ranked countries.

Scotland RL is seen as a bunch of English people playing a foreign sport. The union team will never realistically be perceived as that. 

I know people in Scotland who like Rugby League. They have zero interest though in going to watch 13 guys from Bradford giving it "Eey ooop... Me granny were Scotch... I think." That's why they get 200 people at a home game. 

I notice you have "geek" in your name, and am not sure if it is that which makes it difficult for you to understand this. Tongan Rugby League players resonate well with the Tongan public on NZ and Tonga, and are a source of national pride.  Nobody in Scotland knows or cares who Danny Brough is, or can be bothered to support a bunch of English people playing what they perceive to be an English sport. They could have beaten NZ that night at Workington... And still nobody would have cared. 

You keep saying it doesn't bother you, yet you keep trying to force your (bizarre) view on the rest of us. 

I also know people in Scotland who like RL. They do go and watch their team when they can, and are aware of the context and appreciate the efforts. 

You may not feel like that but don't judge others by your opinions. The crowds for Scotland games hold up pretty well considering the game is almost non-existent there. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

10 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Scotland RL is seen as a bunch of English people playing a foreign sport. The union team will never realistically be perceived as that. 

Scotland RL isn't seen full stop. That's why the majority of Scottish people aren't interested.

10 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Union is really well marketed here at international level. It is also competitive, so Scotland can win close games against higher ranked countries.

Precisely. And they've recruited loads of players born outside Scotland to help them win those close games and become more successful. As has the football team. The feel-good factor that comes from being more successful doesn't appear to have been dampened by the inclusion of players who 'aren't Scottish'. Any negatives have been outweighed by the benefits.

10 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

I notice you have "geek" in your name, and am not sure if it is that which makes it difficult for you to understand this. Tongan Rugby League players resonate well with the Tongan public on NZ and Tonga, and are a source of national pride.  Nobody in Scotland knows or cares who Danny Brough is, or can be bothered to support a bunch of English people playing what they perceive to be an English sport. They could have beaten NZ that night at Workington... And still nobody would have cared. 

Yes - because very few people are interested in RL full stop. Why have the amateur internationals played by 100% home grown Scottish players not been played at Hampden Park in front of 50,000 passionate fans? Because RL doesn't register on the radar in Scotland at all. Outside of the heartlands in England it barely registers here either. Whereas in Queensland and New South Wales it's the number 1 sport.

10 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

You keep saying it doesn't bother you, yet you keep trying to force your (bizarre) view on the rest of us. 

Scotland playing heritage players doesn't bother me. Neither does Tonga playing heritage players. But this is a discussion forum, and we're having a discussion. 

From reading the responses on here, it seems my view is not as bizarre as you think. What I find bizarre is the inconsistency in the view that a player being born in Sydney to Tongan grandparents is somehow more Tongan than a player being born in Dewsbury to Scottish grandparents is Scottish. The only solution I can think of is that some people think that Tongan players look more 'Tongan' than Scottish players look 'Scottish'.

The argument about supporters is a strawman argument. It doesn't make the players any more or less Scottish or Tongan. Tonga's passionate support just happens to have coincided with them becoming really good at a sport that is huge in that part of the world. 

Why do Scotland hockey not get huge attendances despite having a predominantly Scottish-born team? It's because hockey isn't a big spectator sport in Scotland!

 

 

 

[The Frying Scotsman]

10 hours ago, Dave T said:

No, this isn't true. 

The crowd peaked at around 1800 at Gala and people were far more respectful than you are of their efforts. 

 

Are you talking about the 2018 game Vs Wales??

You'd be lucky if there was 350 people there. I don't think they have had a game there since?

Or are you going back further? To an earlier period?

[Dave T]

38 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Are you talking about the 2018 game Vs Wales??

You'd be lucky if there was 350 people there. I don't think they have had a game there since?

Or are you going back further? To an earlier period?

It was over 1400 not 1800 and that was v France 7 years ago. Almost 1200 the year later. 

These crowds are not at that level because of the players (although I'm not saying it isn't an issue for some), but rather they are low because Scotland RL doesn't have a presence. 

[damp squib]

9 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

What I find bizarre is the inconsistency in the view that a player being born in Sydney to Tongan grandparents is somehow more Tongan than a player being born in Dewsbury to Scottish grandparents is Scottish. The only solution I can think of is that some people think that Tongan players look more 'Tongan' than Scottish players look 'Scottish'.

I can see why you would think that but it is more complicated than that.

In my experience the degree to which a person is genuinely connected to their heritage generally correlates to how well the population of that heritage has integrated into the new country, or, to put it more bluntly, how much discrimination they experience in the new country because of their heritage.

I see a noticeable difference between people of Irish heritage born and raised in Britain up to around the 70s and early 80s and how their relationship to Britain was affected by discrimination to the point where they solely or primarily identified as Irish, compared to the next generation who are primarily British-identifying and have a more superficial relationship to their Irish heritage.

People of Tongan heritage in Australia are no doubt raised with constant reminders of their “Tonganess” by Australian society in a way that people with Scottish heritage don’t experience in England. That creates a much stronger and more genuine connection for better or worse.

[The Frying Scotsman]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

It was over 1400 not 1800 and that was v France 7 years ago. Almost 1200 the year later. 

These crowds are not at that level because of the players (although I'm not saying it isn't an issue for some), but rather they are low because Scotland RL doesn't have a presence. 

OK. I was talking about far more recently than that. Crowds were nowhere near that level in 2018. 

I think we are saying (partly) the same thing - "Scotland RL doesn't have a presence" effectively means they have to fill the team with people who are not Scottish, and in the case of foreigners, guys who don't even live here. 

The net result is the same - a team that nobody identifies with, and nobody cares about.  As I said to the Geek chap yesterday: that is fine if all the IRL want is competitive matches. However it will definitely not lead to some kind of renaissance of support from the Scottish public at large. They literally CGAF. That's why national team games are played in wee towns like Gala. 

I don't buy it that the 4Nations games couldn't have been played in Scotland due to "the RFL organising the tournament, and choosing where games are". That just reinforces what I was saying in fact: that they play in England because that's where they will get a crowd. The RFL could easily have said let's get these games played in Scotland, buy it would have been a tiny crowd rattling about in a small stadium and would have looked terrible on TV.  The decision was therefore logically taken to play in England - due to the aforementioned indifference from the public here.

[Dave T]

28 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

OK. I was talking about far more recently than that. Crowds were nowhere near that level in 2018. 

I think we are saying (partly) the same thing - "Scotland RL doesn't have a presence" effectively means they have to fill the team with people who are not Scottish, and in the case of foreigners, guys who don't even live here. 

The net result is the same - a team that nobody identifies with, and nobody cares about.  As I said to the Geek chap yesterday: that is fine if all the IRL want is competitive matches. However it will definitely not lead to some kind of renaissance of support from the Scottish public at large. They literally CGAF. That's why national team games are played in wee towns like Gala. 

I don't buy it that the 4Nations games couldn't have been played in Scotland due to "the RFL organising the tournament, and choosing where games are". That just reinforces what I was saying in fact: that they play in England because that's where they will get a crowd. The RFL could easily have said let's get these games played in Scotland, buy it would have been a tiny crowd rattling about in a small stadium and would have looked terrible on TV.  The decision was therefore logically taken to play in England - due to the aforementioned indifference from the public here.

Well I did highlight that the RFL wanted to use the Glasgow stadium which fell through as it needed emergency repairs.