Ryan Sutton

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

You are correct, I don't agree, because I don't understand your argument.

Will England not get interchanges? If he is indeed being monstered by the same players who haven't managed it previously, can they not give him 10 minutes and let someone else take the monsters on?

You are also correct about the circular argument. I don't understand yours so I will now stop trying to make sense of it.

They have managed it though. Kikau has strolled through Bateman and scored. Christ David Fifita did it last week. That was a prime recent example of how Bateman can struggle against bigger forwards.

If you cant understand the difference between 18 stone impact forwards interchanging compared to a 15 stone workhorse with little impact that isn't my fault.

[AB90]

6 minutes ago, Damien said:

They have managed it though. Kikau has strolled through Bateman and scored. Christ David Fifita did it last week. That was a prime recent example of how Bateman can struggle against bigger forwards.

If you cant understand the difference between 18 stone impact forwards interchanging compared to a 15 stone workhorse with little impact that isn't my fault.

Just curious, who would you select as our starting second rowers?

Anyone we select are not going to be as big or powerful as Australia's and the Pacific islander packs. It's just the nature different racial demographics of the two areas (I.e People of pacific island back ground are on average, naturally larger people than caucasians).

[Damien]

24 minutes ago, The storm said:

In terms of devastating impact I've never held Bateman in the esteem that many do. 

He has a good offload when multiple players tackle him and is very strong for a fairly skinny bloke. 

At club level he is that rough, tough nugget that every team needs, 

I agree. I like Bateman and he is a tough nut.

Obviously some have no concerns about his size. I think when people are discussing the likes of Gildart, Connor and Percival in the centres it leaves us with a very light and undersized team.

[AB90]

51 minutes ago, Damien said:

Its a different level and different teams and dynamics. Lets not pretend it's the same. In the NRL he wasn't playing against teams made up of packs of the best players in the world being interchanged, like he will face in the World Cup. He wasn't being faced with someone like Murdoch-Masila being replaced by Pangai-Junior for example, both over 3 stone heavier. Much the same scenario for the main Southern hemisphere teams.

He was fairly found wanting for GB, granted others were too. Indeed I have never seen much from Bateman at international level, obviously being picked at centre at times doesn't help that. As I said I dont expect you to agree and this is becoming a circular debate.

As I mentioned earlier, the top nrl teams are international level and far, far superior to any team not named Aus, NZ, Eng & Ton.

You say in the nrl he wasn't playing against packs with some of the best players in the world being interchanged off the bench, but thats just not true.

Look at the foward packs and foward interchanges in the 2020 nrl grand final:

Storm

8. Christian Welch (SoO)

9. Cameron Smith (GOAT)

10. Jess Bromwich (NZ international)

11. Kenny Bromwich (NZ international)

12. Antonio Kafusi (Australian international)

13. Nelson Asofa Solomona (NZ international)

Subs:

14. Brandon Smith (NZ international)

15. Tino Fa'asuamaleaui (SoO - would be an Australian international if they played tests last year)

16. Dale Fanucan (SoO)

17. Outside back 

 

Panthers

8. James Tamou (Australian international)

9. Api Korisou (Fiji international)

10. James Fisher-Harris (NZ international)

11. Vililiame Kikau (Fiji International)

12. Liam Martin 

13. Isaiah You (SoO)

 

Subs:

14. Zane Tetevano (NZ international)

15. Moses Leota (Samoa international & SoO)

16. Kury Capwell (SoO)

17. Outside back

 

As you can see they both were stacked with internationals and SoO players coming of the interchange bench. Very similar to what England will face in the world cup.

So if Bateman could do it at a high level in the nrl he can do it at international level. And in the 2019 GB tour he was by far out best player.

[Davo5]

Are people really writing off Bateman as a test backrower because he’s missed a couple of tackles,get a grip.

[Damien]

30 minutes ago, AB90 said:

As I mentioned earlier, the top nrl teams are international level and far, far superior to any team not named Aus, NZ, Eng & Ton.

When I talk of international level I am talking about the top nations. I thought that was a given in these types of discussion. That is who England are competing against and who England need to beat to win the World Cup, I am not talking about picking a team that can beat France et al. That should be a given.

Its also interesting that you say in your other post that anyone we select are not going to be as big or powerful as Australia's and the Pacific islander packs. We have had some huge packs over the years so I'm not sure this is always the case. For two decades people have been spouting how our pack is superior and has the edge, an argument I have always disagreed with by the way and an argument that has proven to be wrong time and again.

As for your question about starting 2nd rows I'd certainly have Whitehead, I'm more undecided about the other and have never said I wouldn't have Bateman and he would certainly be in the 17. It really depends upon the makeup of the team and who comes to the fore. As always people try and twist these things by being selective to be argumentative. Lets just remember that my initial post on Bateman was that "For all the plaudits about Bateman I see little that worries the other top nations and for me he shouldn't be an automatic shoe in, certainly not at 2nd row." That is the case for me.

[Rupert Prince]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

They have managed it though. Kikau has strolled through Bateman and scored. Christ David Fifita did it last week. That was a prime recent example of how Bateman can struggle against bigger forwards.

If you cant understand the difference between 18 stone impact forwards interchanging compared to a 15 stone workhorse with little impact that isn't my fault.

Who won the game?  What else did Fifita do.

Someone else says Bateman is 'skinny'.

You and some others are downright laughable.

[Jim Prendle]

1 hour ago, JM2010 said:

I might be wrong but I think his point is that an International pack is filled with the best forwards from various teams so, even though Bateman more than held his own in the NRL, he wasn't up against the best fowards all in one team and also that the interchange players at international level are much better than club level. 

Bateman might not be, but then again neither is anyone else.

It's a daft argument.

[DavidM]

Murray and Radley are smaller but look at their impact 

[Jim Prendle]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

They have managed it though. Kikau has strolled through Bateman and scored. Christ David Fifita did it last week. That was a prime recent example of how Bateman can struggle against bigger forwards.

If you cant understand the difference between 18 stone impact forwards interchanging compared to a 15 stone workhorse with little impact that isn't my fault.

Yeah, you must be right, and I must be stupid. Looking at the arguments of the other posters though, it seems I'm not the only one that's stupid.

[Jim Prendle]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

They have managed it though. Kikau has strolled through Bateman and scored. Christ David Fifita did it last week. That was a prime recent example of how Bateman can struggle against bigger forwards.

If you cant understand the difference between 18 stone impact forwards interchanging compared to a 15 stone workhorse with little impact that isn't my fault.

Fifita was great last week, for 5 minutes in the first half and five minutes in the second.

Just in case you missed it, Wigan, including the afore-mentioned John Bateman, stuffed Wakefield.

[Rupert Prince]

34 minutes ago, AB90 said:

As I mentioned earlier, the top nrl teams are international level and far, far superior to any team not named Aus, NZ, Eng & Ton.

You say in the nrl he wasn't playing against packs with some of the best players in the world being interchanged off the bench, but thats just not true.

Look at the foward packs and foward interchanges in the 2020 nrl grand final:

Storm

8. Christian Welch (SoO)

9. Cameron Smith (GOAT)

10. Jess Bromwich (NZ international)

11. Kenny Bromwich (NZ international)

12. Antonio Kafusi (Australian international)

13. Nelson Asofa Solomona (NZ international)

Subs:

14. Brandon Smith (NZ international)

15. Tino Fa'asuamaleaui (SoO - would be an Australian international if they played tests last year)

16. Dale Fanucan (SoO)

17. Outside back 

 

Panthers

8. James Tamou (Australian international)

9. Api Korisou (Fiji international)

10. James Fisher-Harris (NZ international)

11. Vililiame Kikau (Fiji International)

12. Liam Martin 

13. Isaiah You (SoO)

 

Subs:

14. Zane Tetevano (NZ international)

15. Moses Leota (Samoa international & SoO)

16. Kury Capwell (SoO)

17. Outside back

 

As you can see they both were stacked with internationals and SoO players coming of the interchange bench. Very similar to what England will face in the world cup.

So if Bateman could do it at a high level in the nrl he can do it at international level. And in the 2019 GB tour he was by far out best player.

This is all rubbish.   You are just building up supermen.   Half of them are just dumb.  Most of these islanders run out of breath after 60 minutes.  Australia were cream crackered with 5 mins to go in World Cup Final. 

This is just tiresome.

[Davo5]

10 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Murray and Radley are smaller but look at their impact 

And that impact will grow with the new rules speeding up the game.

[JM2010]

11 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

Bateman might not be, but then again neither is anyone else.

It's a daft argument.

It's not my argument tbh. I was just pointing out what he was trying to say. There is definitely room for Bateman in the pack but overall the pack does need some size

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

On 03/04/2021 at 15:06, barnyia said:

His career only started when he arrived in Australia, as does all records of tries, games and goal kicking. 

The Aussie often refer to league starting in 19 something rather than 1895....no reference to the country's start just the games start 

[DavidM]

8 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

And that impact will grow with the new rules speeding up the game.

Good point . You want size , we’ll have size . We’ve got some big specimens , but you want stamina , footwork , ball skills etc in the mix as well .  And ultimately just pick your best players 

[AB90]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

When I talk of international level I am talking about the top nations. I thought that was a given in these types of discussion. That is who England are competing against and who England need to beat to win the World Cup, I am not talking about picking a team that can beat France et al. That should be a given.

Its also interesting that you say in your other post that anyone we select are not going to be as big or powerful as Australia's and the Pacific islander packs. We have had some huge packs over the years so I'm not sure this is always the case. For two decades people have been spouting how our pack is superior and has the edge, an argument I have always disagreed with by the way and an argument that has proven to be wrong time and again.

As for your question about starting 2nd rows I'd certainly have Whitehead, I'm more undecided about the other and have never said I wouldn't have Bateman and he would certainly be in the 17. It really depends upon the makeup of the team and who comes to the fore. As always people try and twist these things by being selective to be argumentative. Lets just remember that my initial post on Bateman was that "For all the plaudits about Bateman I see little that worries the other top nations and for me he shouldn't be an automatic shoe in, certainly not at 2nd row." That is the case for me.

I think your being pulled up by posters on the Bateman point because you saying he doesn't worry the other top nations (I disagree as I think his unorthodox play is exactly what would worry them) but you haven't listed the alternatives that would worry them.

Ben Currie, Mike McMeekan, Liam Farrell, Jack Hughes.....are these the players your suggesting that will 'worry' the top nations? Non of them are overly physical and even though they are bigger than Bateman they are no where near as physical as him.

So if the players above are the alternatives, then no. It's a clear start for Bateman (in my opinion).

[The storm]

5 hours ago, Damien said:

They have managed it though. Kikau has strolled through Bateman and scored. Christ David Fifita did it last week. That was a prime recent example of how Bateman can struggle against bigger forwards.

If you cant understand the difference between 18 stone impact forwards interchanging compared to a 15 stone workhorse with little impact that isn't my fault.

Totally agree

 

Ive got more bulk than Bateman 

 

Its mostly fat of course 

 

I view Bateman as the most over rated player on gods earth 

[Jim Prendle]

9 hours ago, The storm said:

 

I view Bateman as the most over rated player on gods earth 

Well, that's the argument sorted then. 

Self confessed fat Widnes lad claims that Bateman is overrated.

Case closed.

[JohnM]

15 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Are people really writing off Bateman as a test backrower because he’s missed a couple of tackles,get a grip.

That's not why they are writing him off, though. They have other reasons. If he were bigger, smaller, longer, shorter, whatever, they'd still write him off as a test back rower. 

[JM2010]

11 hours ago, The storm said:

Totally agree

 

Ive got more bulk than Bateman 

 

Its mostly fat of course 

 

I view Bateman as the most over rated player on gods earth 

I think this actually contradicts the point you're trying to make. 

You have more bulk than Bateman but wouldn't stand a chance in the NRL, as none of us on here would, but Bateman was one of the form second rowers even though he's smaller.

Size can be an advantage but needs the right temperament too. 

You might not have a full pack of Batemans but I'd definitely have him in there

[DavidM]

Someone needs to ring Ricky Stuart and tell him he hasn’t got a clue about rating players 

[JM2010]

The Raiders actually made the NRL Grand Final with a starting pack containing Hodgson, Whitehead and Bateman

[Davo5]

13 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Someone needs to ring Ricky Stuart and tell him he hasn’t got a clue about rating players 

Must be some coach to get all those English plodders to Grand Finals & playoffs every year.

[Harry Stottle]

18 hours ago, Damien said:

They have managed it though. Kikau has strolled through Bateman and scored. Christ David Fifita did it last week. That was a prime recent example of how Bateman can struggle against bigger forwards.

If you cant understand the difference between 18 stone impact forwards interchanging compared to a 15 stone workhorse with little impact that isn't my fault.

Totally in agreement with your assessment Damien, albeit being fit I would expect JB to be included in the squad and very possibly- nay most probably- in the first game v Fiji, there will be bigger guy's awaiting to take his place should he prove ineffective in either or both attack and defence. 

We just have to have trust in Mr Wane that it will not be names he is selecting as to many of our International coaches have done previously but the correct selections to play those in front of them.