Jump to content

Academy Licensing (2022 - 27) - (Merged threads)


Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, yipyee said:

So that 2 academys training together at double the cost..

I guess maths/finance isnt your strong point

I'm not sure what you aren't getting here. It would be one joint academy like the City of  Hull Academy was

Link to comment
Share on other sites


10 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I'm not sure what you aren't getting here. It would be one joint academy like the City of  Hull Academy was

I am getting at your point that said it wouldnt be double the kids but then said to merge them. 'There will be the same amount of kids in it' hence double costs (ish) double the amiunt of kuds stripped from the community game in one area!

Only room for one academy in the calder area.. an independant review choose wakey, Cas should look to improve for the next round of bids instead of whinge

Edited by yipyee
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, yipyee said:

I am getting at your point that said it wouldnt be double the kids but then said to merge them.

Only room for one academy in the calder area.. an independant review choose wakey, Cas should look to improve for the next round of bids instead of whinge

You're struggling here I think. I agree there should only be one academy in the City of Wakefield and I also agree that Cas need to improve to be included in that. I'm not whinging at all. I'm not a Cas or Wakey fan I was just using the area as an example.

A merged academy wouldn't have double the players otherwise what would be the point in merging. It would have the same amount of players as one academy but they would be a mixture of Cas and Wakey players

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

You're struggling here I think. I agree there should only be one academy in the City of Wakefield and I also agree that Cas need to improve to be included in that. I'm not whinging at all. I'm not a Cas or Wakey fan I was just using the area as an example.

A merged academy wouldn't have double the players otherwise what would be the point in merging. It would have the same amount of players as one academy but they would be a mixture of Cas and Wakey players

Well why did you say it will have the same amount of kids then, your proposal will have half the amount of kids, again I guess maths isnt your strong point.

Your idea didnt work in Hull so I dont see how it would work in Calder.

I can see troubled waters for cas next year, an aging squad in need of updating, leaderless with powell leaving and now no funded academy. They have failed to address their crumbling stadium and could be heading to the championship

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, yipyee said:

Well why did you say it will have the same amount of kids then, your proposal will have half the amount of kids, again I guess maths isnt your strong point.

Your idea didnt work in Hull so I dont see how it would work in Calder.

I can see troubled waters for cas next year, an aging squad in need of updating, leaderless with powell leaving and now no funded academy. They have failed to address their crumbling stadium and could be heading to the championship

The same amount as one academy. Hull wasn't my idea I had nothing to do with it. 

I'm not sure why you're discussing Castleford's prospects with me. I don't support them 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I'm not sure what you aren't getting here. It would be one joint academy like the City of  Hull Academy was

The city of Hull academy collapsed after a handful of seasons.

Joint academies are difficult as ultimately the two entities at the top are competing against one another (and are threatened by relegation). That's before we get to the idea of two equal partners or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The city of Hull academy collapsed after a handful of seasons.

Joint academies are difficult as ultimately the two entities at the top are competing against one another (and are threatened by relegation). That's before we get to the idea of two equal partners or not.

That makes sense really. I know I've suggested merged academies but wasn't actually sure how they'd work tbh. I'm just wondering what the best solution is for areas such as Wakefield and Hull that have 2 SL clubs. If Hull KR and Castleford meet the criteria for an academy in the near future does that mean there would be 2 academies in both cities id Wakefield and Hull are still running theirs?

 

Edited by JM2010
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

That makes sense really. I know I've suggested merged academies but wasn't actually sure how they'd work tbh. I'm just wondering what the best solution is for areas such as Wakefield and Hull that have 2 SL clubs. If Hull KR and Castleford meet the criteria for an academy in the near future does that mean there would be 2 academies in both cities id Wakefield and Hull are still running theirs?

 

Castleford isn't in the city of Wakefield 

(any more than Leigh is in the town of Wigan)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I watched a Youtube video about Brentford FC this morning. They've become one of the most consistently strong sides in the Championship, should be in the Premier League soon, consistently sell players at huge profits, yet quite a while ago they got rid of their academy and replaced it with a second team.

Their position was this: their academy set up was costing significant amounts of money, yet hadn't produced a regular first teamer for them for several years. Any good academy products they had were snapped up at increasingly younger ages for low fees by the bigger clubs. This was simply not cost effective.

What they chose to do in response was use analytics and smart market working to find talent in places people didn't normally look. This included the Premier League academy cast offs and the English lower leagues, but also increasingly cast that net further into Europe (and underrated European leagues at that). They also focussed on good coaching as an important imperative to improve the players they have in their squad.

Could an RL club like Cas replicate that strategy? Absolutely, to a certain extent. The only limiting factor would be the unsophisticated RL transfer market meaning it would be quite novel to build a philosophy based on signing cheap talent to sell for a profit.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

That makes sense really. I know I've suggested merged academies but wasn't actually sure how they'd work tbh. I'm just wondering what the best solution is for areas such as Wakefield and Hull that have 2 SL clubs. If Hull KR and Castleford meet the criteria for an academy in the near future does that mean there would be 2 academies in both cities id Wakefield and Hull are still running theirs?

 

Tbh merged academies ultimately have the same logic and really work for merged clubs.

On your second point, yes. Though I'd expect them to have made significant improvements on their current setups and likely have come up with alternative sources of players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If there are only limited opportunities for academies they probably shouldn’t be linked to clubs. Make them regional and centrally run then operate a draft system when offering contracts. Leave youth development up to academies with the community clubs who invested 10 years plus in these players

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Spidey said:

If there are only limited opportunities for academies they probably shouldn’t be linked to clubs. Make them regional and centrally run then operate a draft system when offering contracts. Leave youth development up to academies with the community clubs who invested 10 years plus in these players

Does the game have enough resources to fund those academies outside of the clubs though?

And in any case wouldn't most of these academies train and play at existing facilities (ie current clubs) anyway? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Does the game have enough resources to fund those academies outside of the clubs though?

And in any case wouldn't most of these academies train and play at existing facilities (ie current clubs) anyway? 

What facilities there use is irrelevant- it’s who the decision makers are that are important.

If the RFL are deeming only certain clubs are able to have academies and they are limiting numbers. That gives an inherent advantage to those clubs as they’ll get salary cap advantages due to the club trained rules, unless they get rid of those dispensations of course. 

If there aren’t the resources out there to run centrally then maybe they shouldn’t have yet made radical changes

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

I watched a Youtube video about Brentford FC this morning. They've become one of the most consistently strong sides in the Championship, should be in the Premier League soon, consistently sell players at huge profits, yet quite a while ago they got rid of their academy and replaced it with a second team.

Their position was this: their academy set up was costing significant amounts of money, yet hadn't produced a regular first teamer for them for several years. Any good academy products they had were snapped up at increasingly younger ages for low fees by the bigger clubs. This was simply not cost effective.

What they chose to do in response was use analytics and smart market working to find talent in places people didn't normally look. This included the Premier League academy cast offs and the English lower leagues, but also increasingly cast that net further into Europe (and underrated European leagues at that). They also focussed on good coaching as an important imperative to improve the players they have in their squad.

Could an RL club like Cas replicate that strategy? Absolutely, to a certain extent. The only limiting factor would be the unsophisticated RL transfer market meaning it would be quite novel to build a philosophy based on signing cheap talent to sell for a profit.

This is broadly what Salford have done over the past few years, certainly since Koukash left. They have a Category 3 Academy which has produced a couple of players, but by and large they recruit from SL, NRL and Championship clubs. Occasionally they sell one to a rival team, more often they lose them when out of contract, but they go back to the well and find new players. The salary cap probably helps in this, in that decent players (but not stars) move around the league to earn a better wage from lower ranked clubs than they would get at one of the big six.

  • Like 2

"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Tbh merged academies ultimately have the same logic and really work for merged clubs.

On your second point, yes. Though I'd expect them to have made significant improvements on their current setups and likely have come up with alternative sources of players.

I think the key point there is the alternative source of players. The area around Wakefield and Castleford seems to already have quite a few teams. Is there any scope for more junior clubs in that area or do they need to look further afield to increase junior playing numbers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think the key point there is the alternative source of players. The area around Wakefield and Castleford seems to already have quite a few teams. Is there any scope for more junior clubs in that area or do they need to look further afield to increase junior playing numbers

There is no limit to either the number of clubs , or indeed the number of teams any team can have in any area , 20 years ago Leigh East had mostly 2 sometimes 3 teams in each junior age group , we then saw the emergence of Atherton Dragons literally half a mile from Hilton park 

Now at that time we did have an academy , but not one that played with the SL club , as I recall there was a league of 2 nd tier clubs running academies 

It's about numbers , more players equals more teams equals less issues with academies adversely affecting the community game , just more academies isn't the answer ( something I've argued about with loads of ' RL ' fans on these boards over years , some of whom are now agreeing with that point just because it's the RFL stating it instead of me ) unless we have more juniors playing the sport 

In fact personally I don't care if no adults play the sport at amateur level. I told my own son if he wanted to carry on playing into his 20s to try Union , the fact is RL is IMO too tough and dangerous a sport to play if you aren't getting paid and/or getting the proper protection of the officials , I employed a former SL and lower tier player , during that employment he ' retired ' , but then went playing for a local open age community club , a few weeks later he can into work on Monday morning looking like he'd been wrestling a tiger , his face was covered in scratches , he could only open one eye and the other looked a mess , they had played against a well known ' notorious ' club based in Leeds , I wasn't happy , in truth I should have sent him home 

So things aren't always as simple as they seem in RL 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, JM2010 said:

So I've heard

What did you hear?

I didn’t like it, didn’t want it but it wasn’t a disaster.  Cameron Scott, Liam Harris, Downs for Hull FC and Oakes, Dagger and another I forget to HKR , went through to pro contracts.  All played SL.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, JM2010 said:

That makes sense really. I know I've suggested merged academies but wasn't actually sure how they'd work tbh. I'm just wondering what the best solution is for areas such as Wakefield and Hull that have 2 SL clubs. If Hull KR and Castleford meet the criteria for an academy in the near future does that mean there would be 2 academies in both cities id Wakefield and Hull are still running theirs?

 

There would probably not be enough playing in the community game to warrant another academy, based on the RFL requirements.  This has been discussed for some time behind closed doors but SLE haven’t been keen to take things further.

Replenishing and developing community game participation numbers is the key driver in all this.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

There is no limit to either the number of clubs , or indeed the number of teams any team can have in any area , 20 years ago Leigh East had mostly 2 sometimes 3 teams in each junior age group , we then saw the emergence of Atherton Dragons literally half a mile from Hilton park 

Now at that time we did have an academy , but not one that played with the SL club , as I recall there was a league of 2 nd tier clubs running academies 

It's about numbers , more players equals more teams equals less issues with academies adversely affecting the community game , just more academies isn't the answer ( something I've argued about with loads of ' RL ' fans on these boards over years , some of whom are now agreeing with that point just because it's the RFL stating it instead of me ) unless we have more juniors playing the sport 

In fact personally I don't care if no adults play the sport at amateur level. I told my own son if he wanted to carry on playing into his 20s to try Union , the fact is RL is IMO too tough and dangerous a sport to play if you aren't getting paid and/or getting the proper protection of the officials , I employed a former SL and lower tier player , during that employment he ' retired ' , but then went playing for a local open age community club , a few weeks later he can into work on Monday morning looking like he'd been wrestling a tiger , his face was covered in scratches , he could only open one eye and the other looked a mess , they had played against a well known ' notorious ' club based in Leeds , I wasn't happy , in truth I should have sent him home 

So things aren't always as simple as they seem in RL 

I kind of agree with that. I'm not saying I don't want amateur open age RL but it's not a key factor for keeping the game alive and growing the game. The most important sector of the game imo is up to u16s. If RL can increase the amount of junior clubs fielding teams from u8s to u16s then the professional game will prosper

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

What did you hear?

I didn’t like it, didn’t want it but it wasn’t a disaster.  Cameron Scott, Liam Harris, Downs for Hull FC and Oakes, Dagger and another I forget to HKR , went through to pro contracts.  All played SL.

 

Just what I've been told on here. I thought that was the only source of information I needed. 

I don't actually know much about it tbh. Why did it stop?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

There is no limit to either the number of clubs , or indeed the number of teams any team can have in any area , 20 years ago Leigh East had mostly 2 sometimes 3 teams in each junior age group , we then saw the emergence of Atherton Dragons literally half a mile from Hilton park 

Now at that time we did have an academy , but not one that played with the SL club , as I recall there was a league of 2 nd tier clubs running academies 

It's about numbers , more players equals more teams equals less issues with academies adversely affecting the community game , just more academies isn't the answer ( something I've argued about with loads of ' RL ' fans on these boards over years , some of whom are now agreeing with that point just because it's the RFL stating it instead of me ) unless we have more juniors playing the sport 

In fact personally I don't care if no adults play the sport at amateur level. I told my own son if he wanted to carry on playing into his 20s to try Union , the fact is RL is IMO too tough and dangerous a sport to play if you aren't getting paid and/or getting the proper protection of the officials , I employed a former SL and lower tier player , during that employment he ' retired ' , but then went playing for a local open age community club , a few weeks later he can into work on Monday morning looking like he'd been wrestling a tiger , his face was covered in scratches , he could only open one eye and the other looked a mess , they had played against a well known ' notorious ' club based in Leeds , I wasn't happy , in truth I should have sent him home 

So things aren't always as simple as they seem in RL 

That’s very narrow minded. A lack of open age rugby would impact juniors. Loads play junior following their parents. Stop adults playing and you’ll lose numbers. 

If it’s not safe for Adults why would it be for kids, and why is RU any better?

Edited by Spidey
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...