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League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)


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2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Long post , but who do you want ? , and what do you want them to do ?

I want to see a full and open independent review of the game from the top down to the lowest community club level.

It has to be independent as the RFL are hardly going to highlight their own shortcomings, and you can’t begin to address the games problems if you don’t know where to start.

some issues will be relatively easy to fix, others not so and these areas especially will need a workable development plan with milestones and continual assessment to break the downward cycle the game is currently suffering.

There are no quick fixes, and we have to accept there will be casualties along the way, but something has to be done and quickly while there’s something to save

Edited by Death to the Rah Rah's
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24 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I'm talking about the SL title. Saints (5th SL1) just outside the SL play offs and need to beat Batley (10th SL2 P24 W6 L18). That is what cross code fixtures give you lowering the quality and lowering the income.

How often has pile them high and sell them cheap led to big increases in profits, prestige and optics? This stupid idea is playing to the perception a lot of people outside the heartlands have of RL. 

Wouldnt work that way though would it? It would be conferences with top teams mixed between both 

If clubs knew from next year that top 6 would join the 14 in a two conference SL most likely Newcastle York Widnes Bradford Fax plus one would be up there. 

Plus sky wouldnt be showing St vs Batley.  It would be York vs Leeds,  Hull vs Kr.  St vs Wigan,  Catalan vs Toulouse. Etc etc 

2 conferences of 10 gives you more than enough 'event fixtures' with full houses. 

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5 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

If the 2x10s were to be conferences with a set of cross conference games (though the article seems to suggest they are planned as two divisions in a ladder) then the hypothetical Saints v Batley would only be one game of 28 in the league. I doubt that most fans would care who the opponents were in a game that clinched a play off series place. Given the proliferation of angst towards loop fixtures in SL I am also sure most fans would welcome something that removed the need for yet another game against one of the same 9 teams each year. I would certainly rather see a format that saw us play games against Fev, Fax, Batley, Newcastle (or whoever made up the other group of 10) than a third game against Saints, Wire, Leeds, Hull and co. This would not be because I would view the first group as easier wins than the second but because I am sick to my stomach of seeing the same fixtures over and over ad nauseum. In a hypothetical two conference system allocation of funding would be equal across the board, so whilst some would be commercially stronger or weaker clubs than others the standards would be more equal than at present over time lessening the impact of the "it's only Batley, I won't bother" effect(to use your example).

Agree

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The only way conferences work is if they are equal, with an end of season play off between the two for the title - I very much doubt the top clubs would agree to equal funding for the 20 which would be required for that model

If they aren’t equal. Cross division games are just bonkers.

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7 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

If the 2x10s were to be conferences with a set of cross conference games (though the article seems to suggest they are planned as two divisions in a ladder) then the hypothetical Saints v Batley would only be one game of 28 in the league. I doubt that most fans would care who the opponents were in a game that clinched a play off series place. Given the proliferation of angst towards loop fixtures in SL I am also sure most fans would welcome something that removed the need for yet another game against one of the same 9 teams each year. I would certainly rather see a format that saw us play games against Fev, Fax, Batley, Newcastle (or whoever made up the other group of 10) than a third game against Saints, Wire, Leeds, Hull and co. This would not be because I would view the first group as easier wins than the second but because I am sick to my stomach of seeing the same fixtures over and over ad nauseum. In a hypothetical two conference system allocation of funding would be equal across the board, so whilst some would be commercially stronger or weaker clubs than others the standards would be more equal than at present over time lessening the impact of the "it's only Batley, I won't bother" effect(to use your example).

That’s all well and good for SL1 spicing it up. For The SL2 sides it would juts mean more defeats - that’s a hard sell 

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3 minutes ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

There are no quick fixes

There really aren't.

And whilst there are some "not bad" ideas from posters on here about league structures, the structure is far from being the biggest issue the game faces.

But it gives the impression of doing something.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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9 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

If the 2x10s were to be conferences with a set of cross conference games (though the article seems to suggest they are planned as two divisions in a ladder) then the hypothetical Saints v Batley would only be one game of 28 in the league. I doubt that most fans would care who the opponents were in a game that clinched a play off series place. Given the proliferation of angst towards loop fixtures in SL I am also sure most fans would welcome something that removed the need for yet another game against one of the same 9 teams each year. I would certainly rather see a format that saw us play games against Fev, Fax, Batley, Newcastle (or whoever made up the other group of 10) than a third game against Saints, Wire, Leeds, Hull and co. This would not be because I would view the first group as easier wins than the second but because I am sick to my stomach of seeing the same fixtures over and over ad nauseum. In a hypothetical two conference system allocation of funding would be equal across the board, so whilst some would be commercially stronger or weaker clubs than others the standards would be more equal than at present over time lessening the impact of the "it's only Batley, I won't bother" effect(to use your example).

The NFL play a 16-game season. They play September to January and the rest of the time they are selling the club, brand, memberships, merchandise, corporates based on 16 big events involving their club. Like it or not, the ECB is trying to get 18-counties into 8 franchises.

SL is based in largely working class, poorer communities. The strategy for years seems to be pile as many games as you can and make sure you play as many games with the team down the road to get away fans to turn up. Now, keep the volume of games and play against weaker opposition because the have a different name and kit. 

I am not saying the NFL is the answer. But going to the same well again and again results in attendances like the 5.5k we saw at Wigan last week.

Edited by Scubby
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4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

That’s all well and good for SL1 spicing it up. For The SL2 sides it would juts mean more defeats - that’s a hard sell 

The the away fans stop coming to those games (either side) because it is not a contest. The home fans give this game a swerve to save a few quid. The novelty will last maybe 1-2 seasons tops. I say 1 season.

If you want to see the future of S1 v S2 look at some of the CC attendances over the last decade for the likes of Saints v Sheffield, Leeds v Barrow.

Edited by Scubby
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1 minute ago, Spidey said:

That’s all well and good for SL1 spicing it up. For The SL2 sides it would juts mean more defeats - that’s a hard sell 

Indeed , in fact it shows how difficult things are for us in that I find myself agreeing with something , only to then find myself agreeing with the reply that then picks apart the original one I agreed with 

We all know the problems , but none of us have the answers 

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8 minutes ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

I want to see a full and open independent review of the game from the top down to the lowest community club level.

It has to be independent as the RFL are hardly going to highlight their own shortcomings, and you can’t begin to address the games problems if you don’t know where to start.

some issues will be relatively easy to fix, others not so and these areas especially will need a workable development plane with milestones and continual assessment to break the downward cycle the game is currently suffering.

There are no quick fixes, and we have to accept there will be casualties along the way, but something has to be done and quickly while there’s something to save

So somebody ' indipendant ' , and for their judgement to be accepted before it happens ? , Do you have any examples of this process happening previously ?

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3 minutes ago, Scubby said:

The NFL play a 16-game season. They play September to January and the rest of the time they are selling the club, brand, memberships, merchandise, corporates based on 16 big events involving their club. Like it or not, the ECB is trying to get 18-counties into 8 franchises.

SL is based in largely working class, poorer communities. The strategy for years seems to be pile as many games as you can and make sure you play as many games with the team down the road to get away fans to turn up. Now, keep the volume of games and play against weaker opposition because the have a different name and kit. 

I am not saying the NFL is the answer. But going to the same well again and again results in attendances like the 5.5k we saw at Wigan last week.

But if they were balanced we are not going to the same well. We are digging some new ones in Newcastle York and Toulouse whilst cleaning the wells of others  (Widnes Bulls Broncos)

End of loop fixtures and top 3 from each make the playoffs.  

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4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

That’s all well and good for SL1 spicing it up. For The SL2 sides it would juts mean more defeats - that’s a hard sell 

In a two conference system it wouldn't be a case of one being what are now SL clubs and one being all Championship clubs. There would be a mix (perhaps based on league placings) with each having 5 teams that had placed 1-10 and five from 11-20 in the season prior. Not even RL would be daft enough to do otherwise. Equal funding would help to equalise spending power and competitiveness.

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1 minute ago, wiganermike said:

In a two conference system it wouldn't be a case of one being what are now SL clubs and one being all Championship clubs. There would be a mix (perhaps based on league placings) with each having 5 teams that had placed 1-10 and five from 11-20 in the season prior. Not even RL would be daft enough to do otherwise. Equal funding would help to equalise spending power and competitiveness.

Are you sure about that bit ok hold? 😜

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I just cant see the suggested system coming in, next season would make no logical sense to make it a 14 team SL and then relegate 4 teams. I guess it does make it exciting to see who gets the 4th relegation spot with the 2 promoted teams and Leigh likely to make the bottom 3 up and the same in the Championship as to who gets the last couple of spots with Fax, Bradford, London, Batley, and Widnes likey in then a mad scramble for that last spot. Once you get done with that excitment next season though for those couple of spots its going to leave a pretty boring competition especially in SL1 where nothing has really changed apart from having a new relegation candidate. 

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8 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

In a two conference system it wouldn't be a case of one being what are now SL clubs and one being all Championship clubs. There would be a mix (perhaps based on league placings) with each having 5 teams that had placed 1-10 and five from 11-20 in the season prior. Not even RL would be daft enough to do otherwise. Equal funding would help to equalise spending power and competitiveness.

It might be competitive, but if the pot is down to £1.2m per SL club and £700k to SL2 clubs you have maybe only 2-3 clubs out of 20 spending the full salary cap, no overseas stars, the best British players gone earning £250k+ in the NRL and not £50k in SL and a pretty sht product all round.

What do you think TV companies are willing to pay for this given they have only offered a 2-year reduced rate deal at present? RL will be part time again. It will be back to the glorious 1970s with all the stars down under and pathetic gates.

Edited by Scubby
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1 minute ago, The Blues Ox said:

I just cant see the suggested system coming in, next season would make no logical sense to make it a 14 team SL and then relegate 4 teams. I guess it does make it exciting to see who gets the 4th relegation spot with the 2 promoted teams and Leigh likely to make the bottom 3 up and the same in the Championship as to who gets the last couple of spots with Fax, Bradford, London, Batley, and Widnes likey in then a mad scramble for that last spot. Once you get done with that excitment next season though for those couple of spots its going to leave a pretty boring competition especially in SL1 where nothing has really changed apart from having a new relegation candidate. 

I said in one of my early posts that I thought it was odd strategy to go to 14 only to then relegate 4. The only reasoning I can think of that would lead to it is that with no team being promoted from the Championship in 2022 under the plan then any team relegated from SL this year would be facing at least 2 years outside the top tier (longer if they didn't make Championship top 6 in 2022). That club (almost certainly Leigh) would then be certain not to vote for the proposal which could lead to it not passing. By going to 14 albeit temporarily they secure a SL place for the 12th placed club while granting a second promotion spot which increases the chances of the top Championship clubs voting for the proposal as they know if they get to be one of the two then they (and the team not relegated from SL) are assured of being one of the 20 come 2023. Call me cynical but I think the 14 team one season cameo aspect is a way of securing votes in what is likely to be a close run decision making process.

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34 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So somebody ' indipendant ' , and for their judgement to be accepted before it happens ? , Do you have any examples of this process happening previously ?

I honestly have no idea where you are going with this?

what ‘judgement’ are you going on about?

The whole point of the review is to getting a starting point from which to attempt to address the games many issues.

I don’t know who you are, you may have a different opinion to mine and think all is well in RL land.

I would be interested to hear where you think the game is at present and if you do feel there’s issues, let’s here how you would address them

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10 minutes ago, Scubby said:

It might be competitive, but if the pot is down to £1.2m per SL club and £700k to SL2 clubs you have maybe only 2-3 clubs out of 20 spending the full salary cap, no overseas stars, the best British players gone earning £250k+ in the NRL and not £50k in SL and a pretty sht product all round.

What do you think TV companies are willing to pay for this given they have only offered a 2-year reduced rate deal at present? RL will be part time again. It will be back to the glorious 1970s with all the stars down under and pathetic gates.

Most of the stars are down under already or heading there anyway. As a Wigan fan I see a good kid emerge from the academy and straight away am resigned to thinking 'how long will we get to keep this lad for'. We could stick another million on cap spend for all clubs and still lose them.

If it were two equal conferences then it would be up to the sport to sell the rights to the French (with the benefit of two French clubs at the top level) and to get more from UK broadcast rights. We could potentially have London (I know), Newcastle, York, Sheffield in the 20. Historically we have not been the best at selling the sport but if we don't do so then we are already on the slide to oblivion.

More important than the league structure though is the need for international competition as the wider public can relate to that even if they couldn't give a monkey's about our club sides. I posted in other threads about the need for NH international competition along the lines of the Nations League in football with tiered groups of 4 or 5 nations and to play it regularly to bring money and interest. We also need our governing bodies and whinging fans to also not give a stuff that England win at a canter when it first starts as we need to let it build and the other nations to grow. If we don't develop the international game in the NH and allow the other nations to play and grow things will never get better. Get interest at international level and you build interest at community level outside (and inside) the heartlands and go from there.

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7 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

Most of the stars are down under already or heading there anyway. As a Wigan fan I see a good kid emerge from the academy and straight away am resigned to thinking 'how long will we get to keep this lad for'. We could stick another million on cap spend for all clubs and still lose them.

If it were two equal conferences then it would be up to the sport to sell the rights to the French (with the benefit of two French clubs at the top level) and to get more from UK broadcast rights. We could potentially have London (I know), Newcastle, York, Sheffield in the 20. Historically we have not been the best at selling the sport but if we don't do so then we are already on the slide to oblivion.

More important than the league structure though is the need for international competition as the wider public can relate to that even if they couldn't give a monkey's about our club sides. I posted in other threads about the need for NH international competition along the lines of the Nations League in football with tiered groups of 4 or 5 nations and to play it regularly to bring money and interest. We also need our governing bodies and whinging fans to also not give a stuff that England win at a canter when it first starts as we need to let it build and the other nations to grow. If we don't develop the international game in the NH and allow the other nations to play and grow things will never get better. Get interest at international level and you build interest at community level outside (and inside) the heartlands and go from there.

Sport doesn't have to be equal it has to be commercially viable. The Premier League is rich because the six most powerful clubs can attract the world's best players.

RL clubs just getting reduced TV rights on reduced TV rights and just slicing the smaller cake thinner and thinner and thinner to protect their own ass is only going to realise one thing. Part-time sport and irrelevance.

Look at the BDO in darts, when you are forgotten you are gone. The BBC pulled the plug and it died. Bobby George and Jocky Wilson are now just quiz questions for the over 40s. Just saying the best British players are going to the NRL anyway is pretty much an acceptance of a sport heading part-time.

Edited by Scubby
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20 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Sport doesn't have to be equal it has to be commercially viable. The Premier League is rich because the six most powerful clubs can attract the world's best players.

RL clubs just getting reduced TV rights on reduced TV rights and just slicing the smaller cake thinner and thinner and thinner to protect their own ass is only going to realise one thing. Part-time sport and irrelevance.

Look at the BDO in darts, when you are forgotten you are gone. The BBC pulled the plug and it died. Bobby George and Jocky Wilson are now just quiz questions for the over 40s. Just saying the best British players are going to the NRL anyway is pretty much an acceptance of a sport heading part-time.

In our sport we are not and will not be the Premier League though. NRL is Premier League, we unfortunately are SPFL, League of Wales, League of Ireland. We have been losing and will continue to lose players to NRL and RU we are going to remain below those in the pecking order. We are now starting to lose players before they even play for the first team, I don't like it any more than you do but it is the reality. Changing the league structure in itself will not stop that happening but not changing the league structure won't stop it happening either.

Just as with any other time if a change in structure means that the pie is split more ways with smaller slices then the sport has to find means of making that pie bigger so that the drop in funds per club isn't so stark. Doing so along with any upcoming structure change is the challenge our governing bodies face.

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On 30/07/2021 at 21:12, GeordieSaint said:

Another squabble over P&R and internal politics; whilst a coup is going on internationally about control and governance of the sport. This will end well.

I don't think the people who run the game realise how many people are on the verge of walking away from the game if there is no P & R, and if there is no world cup and the Aussies taking over the running of the game at international level

Crowds are falling. TV audience's are down for Super League games. We have a reduced TV contract. Junior playing numbers are down

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On 31/07/2021 at 02:44, POR said:

Now the dust has settled lets not forget this gem

Subjects covered included  new competitions to help grow the game commercially. 😁

They had the chance to do that with Toronto, and look what happened their.

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  • John Drake changed the title to League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)

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