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Do ex Toronto fans still watch ?


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6 hours ago, frank said:

How could Toronto in a new  area  and attracting gates of around 10,000 and building be allowed to fold?  Yet we have teams like Leigh (in a League area) who on a good day can  attract 3,000 be allowed into SL. Then there is the French teams being asked to fork out to enter the Challenge Cup.

RL needs to be run by an independent  body, who would administer the game for the good of it. The self serving clubs should have very little input in how the game is run. Until this happens  SL will continue to struggle.

Leigh get much more than 3k in SL and they’ll be allowed in if they win the championship. 

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7 hours ago, frank said:

How could Toronto in a new  area  and attracting gates of around 10,000 and building be allowed to fold?  Yet we have teams like Leigh (in a League area) who on a good day can  attract 3,000 be allowed into SL. Then there is the French teams being asked to fork out to enter the Challenge Cup.

RL needs to be run by an independent  body, who would administer the game for the good of it. The self serving clubs should have very little input in how the game is run. Until this happens  SL will continue to struggle.

Toronto weren’t allowed to fold, they were forced to fold by being denied any central funding, forced to pay other clubs travel costs and to play all games away from home for a full season. Absolutely disgraceful. As it is that Toulouse gavel to pay other clubs travel costs.

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On 29/04/2022 at 12:29, Bearman said:

At their height the Wolfpack claimed they had about 10,000 regular fans.

What happened to them? Are they lost for good or has there been an uptake on tv subscriptions?

The NRL are flirting with America. Have they seen something in the ratings that might tempt them?

The NRL are fully aware that the North American sports market is the most lucrative sports market in the world

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On 29/04/2022 at 13:38, Damien said:

There certainly seems a few on Twitter who still follow the game.

The whole thing is so sad. Toronto were great for the game and undoubtedly many fans have been lost to RL.

And sponsors and British Rugby League's best chance ever of breaking into the most lucrative sports market in the world

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1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

And certainly won't be next season

Clubs that rely om away support have bad business plans

No club has a business plan that ' relays ' on away fans 

 

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1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

For those who don't believe the US is the most lucrative sports market in the world  perhaps they can tell me which country is?

Toronto isn't in the US.

HTH.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

No club has a business plan that ' relays ' on away fans 

 

People like soundbites that they repeat over and over, whether there is any truth or not. 

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On 29/04/2022 at 13:07, Leyther_Matt said:

Not from me having attended a game in Toronto. It would be an absolute tragedy for our game if such enthusiasm was thrown away, but sadly I expect that particular ship has long since sailed.

Yup. It really was a fabulous experience. I loved every minute of it.

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45 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Yup. It really was a fabulous experience. I loved every minute of it.

 

Just now, Wigan Riversider said:

Quite correct.

Seems that tgg will forever remain on the m62 corridor.

We have to accept two things:  we have a set most parochial opinions and outlook and probably the most financially limited sport. These are in direct contradiction to the quality of the game itself.

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2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Future is League said:

For those who don't believe the US is the most lucrative sports market in the world  perhaps they can tell me which country is?

Has anyone said that it isn’t? Crazy stuff if so. 

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On 29/04/2022 at 15:47, Eddie said:

SL clubs chucking Toronto out is almost certainly the biggest own goal in Rugby League history, which is incredible given the stiff level of competition. 

Steady on Eddie, the reality was probably that North Americans whether rich sports investors or rich sports TV channels, or talented footy players were not going to support or follow the Wolfpack, whose owner admitted he'd invested $30,000,000 for no return. Mr. Argyle kindly did that because he and Mr. Perez felt Americans would take the game up, invest in it and flock to watch it on TV.

In short they gave it a really good go and even though the $30,000,000 cost was nothing to Mr. Argyle, a multi-Billionaire, it was time to evaluate once in SL with COVID arriving where the Wolfpack were going, and that was back down to the Championship which would hardly inspire any potential North American serious investors. Great dream, but those opening matches in SL  fielding  average and past it English players, and a very past it SBW didn't inspire anyone to financially get on board here either.  

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The US being the biggest paying sports market in the world is a lazy soundbite that in reality means nothing for RL. 

Understanding how minor sports (and I mean really, really, minor sports in the US do in terms of getting some of that dollar is important - can anyone answer that? 

Europe is a sizeable market, but we get next to nothing there. 

Australia has a lucrative market for RL yet next to no value for SL there. 

We need to focus on sensible growth, not fantasy stuff.

What Toronto did was excellent in terms of putting events on and garnering attention, partners, embedding themselves in the community etc. and it was great to see a new fan base pop up like it did, but when it is done on such weak foundations, it has to be self funding, as its too expensive for the sport to afford (and not many, if any sports in the UK would invest millions and millions of quid on such a gamble). 

It was worth a gamble if somebody was paying for it, that was the whole proposal, unfortunately it didn't work. 

I hope there will be some legacy from it, my support for expansion is based around the more areas we play, the more people we expose the game to, the increased likelihood we get of backers, sponsors etc. wanting in. 

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3 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Steady on Eddie, the reality was probably that North Americans whether rich sports investors or rich sports TV channels, or talented footy players were not going to support or follow the Wolfpack, whose owner admitted he'd invested $30,000,000 for no return. Mr. Argyle kindly did that because he and Mr. Perez felt Americans would take the game up, invest in it and flock to watch it on TV.

In short they gave it a really good go and even though the $30,000,000 cost was nothing to Mr. Argyle, a multi-Billionaire, it was time to evaluate once in SL with COVID arriving where the Wolfpack were going, and that was back down to the Championship which would hardly inspire any potential North American serious investors. Great dream, but those opening matches in SL  fielding  average and past it English players, and a very past it SBW didn't inspire anyone to financially get on board here either.  

Ultimately, TWP needed millions and millions ploughing into it for it to survive. The game doesn't have that, and never claimed it did. This was a self funding initiative by Argyle. Once he walked away, that was TWP done. The new guy was a different proposition altogether, and he was apparently useless. 

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52 minutes ago, Wigan Riversider said:

Quite correct. Seems that tgg will forever remain on the m62 corridor.

Indeed, but I would respectfully say that this is down to the 1896 breakaway from the Rugby Union.

Those that broke away thought money would be a key to taking the game forward against the growth of soccer with other clubs flocking to join it with the Yorkshire and Lancashire clubs. 

There may be some paralels here but I'm no Collins or Delaney....... 

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13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Ultimately, TWP needed millions and millions ploughing into it for it to survive. The game doesn't have that, and never claimed it did. This was a self funding initiative by Argyle. 

The "Millions and Millions" return was supposedly going to come from North American Television but that could only really have come if rich American investors and quality American players had got on board. None did.

Mr. Argyle delivered the investment, Mr.Rowley delivered the team and Mr. Perez delivered the "sell" and we should thank them very much for that, they gave it a real good go and I'm thankful they did. It was a great idea and a massive opportunity for us to really give expansion a go which we all want.

At one point there was a chance Argyle may have based himself in London, a Rich London side would have been some consolation....... 

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39 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Steady on Eddie, the reality was probably that North Americans whether rich sports investors or rich sports TV channels, or talented footy players were not going to support or follow the Wolfpack, whose owner admitted he'd invested $30,000,000 for no return. Mr. Argyle kindly did that because he and Mr. Perez felt Americans would take the game up, invest in it and flock to watch it on TV.

In short they gave it a really good go and even though the $30,000,000 cost was nothing to Mr. Argyle, a multi-Billionaire, it was time to evaluate once in SL with COVID arriving where the Wolfpack were going, and that was back down to the Championship which would hardly inspire any potential North American serious investors. Great dream, but those opening matches in SL  fielding  average and past it English players, and a very past it SBW didn't inspire anyone to financially get on board here either.  

I could quibble some of that, but overall it's a lot closer to the reality of what transpired than those that claim that "SL kicked Toronto out". 

And I say that as someone who really wanted it to work. 

It was a great ride, and we'll look back in years to come and wonder did it really happen, but it did, and there were some great memories. 

But it’s gone and there's no realistic path to the NA market for SL now. Regardless of how much that market may be worth, it doesn't mean anyone can get a piece of it, or that it's worth spending money to try. 

 

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12 minutes ago, steve oates said:

The "Millions and Millions" return was supposedly going to come from North American Television but that could only really have come if rich American investors and quality American players had got on board. None did.

Mr. Argyle delivered the investment, Mr.Rowley delivered the team and Mr. Perez delivered the "sell" and we should thank them very much for that, they gave it a real good go and I'm thankful they did. It was a great idea and a massive opportunity for us to really give expansion a go which we all want.

At one point there was a chance Argyle may have based himself in London, a Rich London side would have been some consolation....... 

Indeed. I think there was a lot to learn, even from an ultimate failure. The biggest thing for me is that it is clearly possible to sell the game of RL in alien markets. I think we've seen enough of this before in glimpses, but Toronto was the most sustained success in that regard. 

Unfortunately what we did learn is that it was bloody expensive, but we don't know whether the investment could have been halved and a similar level of success achieved. 

I think what we have also learned is that tapping into overseas TV deals and getting millions is a long game and not that easy, especially when what you are selling is an overseas competition. 

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5 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I could quibble some of that, but overall it's a lot closer to the reality of what transpired than those that claim that "SL kicked Toronto out". 

And I say that as someone who really wanted it to work. 

It was a great ride, and we'll look back in years to come and wonder did it really happen, but it did, and there were some great memories. 

But it’s gone and there's no realistic path to the NA market for SL now. Regardless of how much that market may be worth, it doesn't mean anyone can get a piece of it, or that it's worth spending money to try. 

 

We know that the UK market is probably worth £25 to £40m for SL. We also know that TWP cost millions and millions over its few years in existence. To make this gamble worthwhile, you really need to be considering how we can get say £10m per year in extra. 

I think that either needs self-funding (which many don't like for some reason), or it needs the game to fund it at a substantial cost and risk. It doesn't feel like a sensible risk in the slightest for the game to do that. 

If we were going to invest millions in growth/expansion (which I believe we should), imho it should be in the UK and France. 

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30 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Steady on Eddie, the reality was probably that North Americans whether rich sports investors or rich sports TV channels, or talented footy players were not going to support or follow the Wolfpack, whose owner admitted he'd invested $30,000,000 for no return. Mr. Argyle kindly did that because he and Mr. Perez felt Americans would take the game up, invest in it and flock to watch it on TV.

In short they gave it a really good go and even though the $30,000,000 cost was nothing to Mr. Argyle, a multi-Billionaire, it was time to evaluate once in SL with COVID arriving where the Wolfpack were going, and that was back down to the Championship which would hardly inspire any potential North American serious investors. Great dream, but those opening matches in SL  fielding  average and past it English players, and a very past it SBW didn't inspire anyone to financially get on board here either.  

I really feel sorry for those Toronto people who were infused with RL and have been left behind.

But in my opinion, they were sold a falsehood. When Perez and Argyle came to the RFL, the governing body should have welcomed them, but not in the way it happened.

I will give you an analogy. Field Lacrosse is a sport played across America, but primarily in the eastern States and Canada. There is a professional competition now called the PLL. 

Imagine in this alternative scenario if you had $30m would you create a fresh club in the UK to play in the PLL or spend that money to develop semi professional clubs and a league here? Or would be guided by the governing body to invest in an existing team in America?

I imagine most would avoid building a transatlantic club in a wholly new area (yes I know Lacrosse is played here, but not professionally) because it would be too expensive, too risky and logistically challenging. 

Most would look at developing a domestic league with a long business framework or buy into a Cas, KR or Toulouse where quick results could be built on firm foundations.

This is what the RFL should have been saying. But yet again it was lacking.

So for me when I look at the reality of Toronto, which was a club based above the Moon Over the Water pub on Deansgate, Manchester and training at Hopwood College, Rochdale flying in a dozen less times a year to play at "home," I weep for the opportunities lost.

Had due diligence and common sense been applied by our movers and shakers, then a real legacy would still apply. That investment would have worked, North America would perhaps have a lasting base or a SL club would be enhanced.

Really sad that people's hearts rather than heads ruled the day. 

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