Teams finishing 5th or 6th SHOULD NOT have a chance to win SL

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

7 hours ago, Loiner said:

Might as well say why should a team finishing 2nd have a chance of winning.

It's scarcely believable that this year of all years they are picking to criticise it 

Leeds have achieved nothing less than a miracle getting to the final. If they win it then it will be the greatest SL win/story of them all over the 25+ years of the comp 

Were they not all watching Friday ?

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Bedfordshire Bronco

[bobbruce]

4 hours ago, Niels said:

Does anyone know, or can remember, which years the premiership was more important than the league?

I ask because I read on a Leigh message board that Leigh were champions in 1982 when they were top of the league, and the premiership wasn't important.

However I recall Dewsbury won the championship in 1973, but this was via a premiership. 

Was there a change in between these years?

1906- 39 were playoffs apart from the war years. Then 1947-62 were playoffs as were 1964-73. Then obviously 1998 to now were/are playoffs. Is that something like 84 years and counting that playoffs have decided the champions. 
 

Around 34 years were champions were decided by league leaders but most of that between 1973 and 97. 
 

 

[GUBRATS]

We either have a play off or we don't , no system of play off is perfect , there are genuine arguments for all the different systems , as long as everybody knows which it is at the start , it matters not which we use 

[Loiner]

53 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

It's scarcely believable that this year of all years they are picking to criticise it 

Leeds have achieved nothing less than a miracle getting to the final. If they win it then it will be the greatest SL win/story of them all over the 25+ years of the comp 

Were they not all watching Friday ?

 

Exactly mate.

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

We either have a play off or we don't , no system of play off is perfect , there are genuine arguments for all the different systems , as long as everybody knows which it is at the start , it matters not which we use 

No but there is a fair discussion to be had over which is best for the game. 

I must admit,  it's another slight frustration of mine,  we've had a top five,  two different top sixes,  a top 4 and a top 8. And I'm not sure I could explain when and why each change was made.  These things do seem to be a bit at random. 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

No but there is a fair discussion to be had over which is best for the game. 

I must admit,  it's another slight frustration of mine,  we've had a top five,  two different top sixes,  a top 4 and a top 8. And I'm not sure I could explain when and why each change was made.  These things do seem to be a bit at random. 

But as ever just like P and R and structure debates , there are plusses and minuses to all 

If we had full stadia throughout the season like they do in the PL we could just have FPTP as that is without doubt the fairest system 

Edited September 19, 2022 by GUBRATS

[bobbruce]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

No but there is a fair discussion to be had over which is best for the game. 

I must admit,  it's another slight frustration of mine,  we've had a top five,  two different top sixes,  a top 4 and a top 8. And I'm not sure I could explain when and why each change was made.  These things do seem to be a bit at random. 

The only reason I can think of getting rid of the top 5 is the league leaders possibly didn’t like have a week off play and win and then have another week off. That’s the only reason I can think of to change it unless we simply wanted more teams in the playoffs. 

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

But as ever just like P and R and structure debates , there are plusses and minuses to all 

If we had full stadia throughout the season like they do in the PL we could just have FPTP as that is without doubt the fairest system 

I think the structure one has the advantage of us having data now as we've tried out various formats. Whilst there is still an opinion piece there,  it should be easier to make a case for or against each system. Certainly easier than P&R that has a lot of hypothesis knocking around dressed up as facts. 

I'm broadly OK with the structure now,  I did prefer the earlier versions,  but I seem to recall that a team could go into the GF having had only one game in the last 3 weeks,  and I know that was seen as a real weakness. 

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I think the structure one has the advantage of us having data now as we've tried out various formats. Whilst there is still an opinion piece there,  it should be easier to make a case for or against each system.

What data are you looking for here?

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

What data are you looking for here?

Crowds,  viewing figs,  plus progress of which positions -  which isn't perfect as it's sport and underdogs win!  But as,  I think it was Damien highlighted,  the % of finals between the top 2 in 5 team playoffs is greater than others as an example of the kind of thing that may shape decisions. 

That is if the leaders feel that is an important aim -  they may prefer a system with more likelihood of lower teams making the final. 

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Crowds,  viewing figs,  plus progress of which positions -  which isn't perfect as it's sport and underdogs win!  But as,  I think it was Damien highlighted,  the % of finals between the top 2 in 5 team playoffs is greater than others as an example of the kind of thing that may shape decisions. 

That is if the leaders feel that is an important aim -  they may prefer a system with more likelihood of lower teams making the final. 

So we have data , but then look at it subjectively , that sort of negates data

[Dave T]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

So we have data , but then look at it subjectively , that sort of negates data

Well no.  Data shapes your decision. Better decisions are made using data. 

[koli]

7 hours ago, Niels said:

Does anyone know, or can remember, which years the premiership was more important than the league?

I ask because I read on a Leigh message board that Leigh were champions in 1982 when they were top of the league, and the premiership wasn't important.

However I recall Dewsbury won the championship in 1973, but this was via a premiership. 

Was there a change in between these years?

Dewsbury won the last of the old championships (from 8th) .

we then went to divisions and the winner of Div 1 became Champions and the Premiership became an additional knockout trophy after CC and League decided and ranked behind both in estimation.

[koli]

17 hours ago, Damien said:

I think its you cherry picking here and it's really disingenuous to purposely pick out dates from before the Premiership Trophy was played at Old Trafford, which was the debate as that is the event that the Grand Final directly replaced. 

As for your assertion of couple of just a couple of 30k gates when it was Wigan v Saints. The first final at Old Trafford was Wigan v Warrington in 1987 and got 38,756. Widnes v Saints the year after got 35,352. Widnes v Hull FC then got 40,194 in 1989. Widnes v Bradford got 40,796 in 1990. Hull FC and Widnes got 42,043 in 1991. That takes us to the first Wigan v Saints game in 1992 that actually got a comparatively poor 33,157.

No rise tinted glasses there, if anything I was being conservative.

I stand corrected-had forgotten the Premiership final gates were so good in the late 80s.

 

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, koli said:

I stand corrected-had forgotten the Premiership final gates were so good in the late 80s.

 

Old Trafford was being rebuilt in 1992. I think that crowd was the capacity of the ground then.

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, koli said:

I stand corrected-had forgotten the Premiership final gates were so good in the late 80s.

 

No worries. If anything the Premiership Trophy suffered in the spell you talked about as Wigan were at Wembley every year and the Premiership final at Old Trafford was only weeks after that. Many fans didn't do both.

[koli]

20 minutes ago, koli said:

I stand corrected-had forgotten the Premiership final gates were so good in the late 80s.

 

The move to OT was dramatic .In the 11 finals prior to the move only 1 broke 20k (29k for Hull v Hull KR in 81).All the OT ones were between 33k and 42k)

[Oxford]

On 16/09/2022 at 23:39, Ray Cashmere said:

is counter-factual. 

Ray you're enganging in pointless argument with a brick edifice, I'm afraid.

A debate is not discussion if no one ever reads or listens.

 

 

[Live after death]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

We either have a play off or we don't , no system of play off is perfect , there are genuine arguments for all the different systems , as long as everybody knows which it is at the start , it matters not which we use 

It seems most non Leeds fans are against play offs, or are happy for play offs if it doesn’t involve Leeds or the cut of varies  from 4th to 2nd but exactly one place higher than Leeds finish, as Long as Leeds don’t make the final or have a chance of making it. 
Funny  how we mainly get these debates when Leeds get to the GF and don’t finished in top spot. 

[Damien]

10 minutes ago, Live after death said:

It seems most non Leeds fans are against play offs, or are happy for play offs if it doesn’t involve Leeds or the cut of varies  from 4th to 2nd but exactly one place higher than Leeds finish, as Long as Leeds don’t make the final or have a chance of making it. 
Funny  how we mainly get these debates when Leeds get to the GF and don’t finished in top spot. 

No we get these debates every single year regardless of team. Leeds fans have really taken the everyone hates us mentality to a whole new level this year.

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

No we get these debates every single year regardless of team. Leeds fans have really taken the everyone hates us mentality to a whole new level this year.

Unlike Wigan , who we all do hate

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Damien said:

No we get these debates every single year regardless of team. Leeds fans have really taken the everyone hates us mentality to a whole new level this year.

 

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Unlike Wigan , who we all do hate

Indeed.  I think Leeds feel a bit left out tbh as a real giant of the game and want to portray themselves as hated like the real villains here,  Wigan and Saints. 

[gingerjon]

8 minutes ago, Damien said:

Leeds fans have really taken the everyone hates us mentality to a whole new level this year.

Just another thing they've nicked from the football team.

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Just another thing they've nicked from the football team.

Fev are trying to get in on the act as well

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Unlike Wigan , who we all do hate

Wigan fans knew that a long time ago and have made peace with that. Leeds fans are still in that persecution complex stage.