What are IMG's strategy for RL in Wales?

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

The model would be find a stadium that isn’t hideously oversized you can make money off on matchdays,

Which one are you going to choose?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stadiums_in_Wales_by_capacity

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Which one are you going to choose?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stadiums_in_Wales_by_capacity

Belle Vue

Just for the name.

 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Which one are you going to choose?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stadiums_in_Wales_by_capacity

Cardiff Arms Park would be the only one that could work IMO. Not too big, and slap bang in the middle of town for those visiting fans who wanted to make a weekend of it. Plus it's an artificial pitch, so there wouldn't be any annual re-seeding/relocation issues.

[gingerjon]

Just now, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Cardiff Arms Park would be the only one that could work IMO. Not too big, and slap bang in the middle of town for those visiting fans who wanted to make a weekend of it. Plus it's an artificial pitch, so there wouldn't be any annual re-seeding/relocation issues.

I put it up to show how few options there genuinely are. Cardiff RU already play there so there could be scheduling issues but it is pretty much the only close to possible option.

But, to repeat, 2-3 professional and sustainable set ups is a more realistic long term target.

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, Pie tries said:

I remember the thousands of Welsh fans who came up to watch the WC SF at Old Trafford -

If we were now still in the days when high profile Welsh Union player's swopped codes to RL AND got to the semi-final of the World Cup I would still expect thousands would travel to watch their national team in such a game, back then in '95 members of that team were easily and readily identifiable to the Welsh public such as Jiffy, Devereux, Ellis, Gibbs, Moriarty, Phillips, Bateman, Young, Quinnell, that is why they travelled in big numbers moreso than the game of Rugby League itself.

I do think that the example you are using is a little outdated and will no way ever come about again without the pathway of big name Welsh Players making the transition to RL.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

same potential as France or London

That word has been knocking about for a very long time with France and much longer with London Tommy, it will be very interesting to see how IMG propose to convert London's potential into an actuality.

There is another thread at the moment which is discussing the next TV contract, whatever IMG are hoping to initiate in our sport it will be inextricably linked with the outcome of the those contracts discussions with whoever and the monies that can be acheived.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, SydneyRoosters said:

Wales should be IMG’s number 1 priority, It’s the easiest pathway to growth.

Who Finances it?

[SydneyRoosters]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Who Finances it?

The RFL and other organisations I would think

[Sports Prophet]

3 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

A Welsh SL club would lose millions and go bust within 3 years, like the last one did. 

Wales can't even sustain its union franchises any more, so there's just not the financial window for a league one to come in - and it could only be in Cardiff, so that means renting an expensive ground. 

The most important thing for Wrlsh RL in my view is to support the growing valleys/Cardiff community and youth game, and create viable pathways to the northern game for the best 18 year olds. This is already happening of sorts, so we just need to build it up: more entry points and more destination points. 

You aren’t wrong on the highlighted front, however, just like the SL, the Welsh RU and the Pro series clubs have done SFA to change the image and the way the sport is presented in order to attract a younger audience to replace its ageing fanatics.

SL is in dying need of a revamp and I am sorry to say, sub 5k crowds in Wakefield and Salford should have no place in any NWO of NH club rugby league. 

In an IMG reimagined SL, I would love to see a brave target for new Cardiff and London franchises to enter the SL in 2026, joining Toulouse and Catalan as permanent SL clubs that are exempt from any relegation threat.

[Toby Chopra]

1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

Think the last one was a ground share owned by someone more interested in getting the land than running the club, which is what happened with Wrexham AFC too.

I don’t think there is a viable Welsh SL without the person funding it getting a guaranteed stake in WRL commercial income and guaranteed annual games vs England (that aren’t held in Leigh) . Otherwise you are taking all the risk to benefit someone else. 

The crowds for Crusaders first season were good in Wrexham. The model would be find a stadium that isn’t hideously oversized you can make money off on matchdays, and have the club really be a Welsh natonal team where you can get someone to sponsor the team and the national team as a wrap around deal.

Provided they are guaranteed to stay in SL and play England every year on FTA you could make it work.

At an absolute minimum RFL should be paying for a Welsh academy in Cardiff to be in the SL academy structure, then best lads can get plucked by SL clubs to get a core group of FT welsh players to give Wales a decent enough team for England to play annually.

I think all the things you list that need to be in place for a Welsh SL team show why it's a real long shot, and probably not worth anyone's money at this point in time.

But your paragraph on a south Wales SL academy feeding into existing SL clubs is spot on. Run that for 5 years and you'll have a half decent Welsh team that you can do something with, and participation in and visibility of league in Wales should grow from there. Then, maybe, a decade from now a SL franchise comes back on the table.

 

[Toby Chopra]

3 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

You aren’t wrong on the highlighted front, however, just like the SL, the Welsh RU and the Pro series clubs have done SFA to change the image and the way the sport is presented in order to attract a younger audience to replace its ageing fanatics.

SL is in dying need of a revamp and I am sorry to say, sub 5k crowds in Wakefield and Salford should have no place in any NWO of NH club rugby league. 

In an IMG reimagined SL, I would love to see a brave target for new Cardiff and London franchises to enter the SL in 2026, joining Toulouse and Catalan as permanent SL clubs that are exempt from any relegation threat.

Well, the proposed IMG model does provide for that possibility, but not on a wing and a prayer. Those London and Cardiff clubs would have to demonstrate a level of financial guarantees on a par with what Dolphins are putting up in the NRL to gain Cat A status in the new IMG system.

If someone comes in and put their money where their mouth is - guaranteed - them I'm all for it, even it it displaces one of the other clubs you mentioned. But I wouldn't hold your breath on that front.       

[Jughead]

8 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I think all the things you list that need to be in place for a Welsh SL team show why it's a real long shot, and probably not worth anyone's money at this point in time.

But your paragraph on a south Wales SL academy feeding into existing SL clubs is spot on. Run that for 5 years and you'll have a half decent Welsh team that you can do something with, and participation in and visibility of league in Wales should grow from there. Then, maybe, a decade from now a SL franchise comes back on the table.

 

New clubs, of which IMG themselves have stated they have no interest in right now, is pie in the sky off-season chat. The addition of a funded Welsh Academy, with longer term aims is more realistic and looks to have a suitable strategy to it that would benefit the game internationally and domestically. 

[steve oates]

On 25/10/2022 at 11:14, The Daddy said:

I noted in IMG's proposals that London and France were targeted as strategic areas of development. 

Was Wales mentioned in the proposals? I don't remember seeing it. Wales has huge potential still, they just need one backer similar to a Derek Beaumont to drive the sport forward there. 

In the small amount of time the Crusaders were active they produced many top players. In fact........

The owner of Crusaders actually produced many Australians and that's how they managed to climb the leagues before Samuels pulled out when he got pulled up on the issue. Derek Beaumont is certainly NOT a "similar backer" at all. 

It's only the long history Wales has with RL and the working class similarities of the games in the north and in Wales that has formed some sort of a feint bond between WRU & RFL. Now paid Welsh RU players can go on playing RU.

You are clearly not one for the "facts" even though you could look them up?  In future why not look them up first and then you will be able to have a sensible debate. 

[nadera78]

Oh look, it's Mr Whippet. Come along to tell us why RL will never amount to anything outside the M62.

[steve oates]

15 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

In an IMG reimagined SL, I would love to see a brave target for new Cardiff and London franchises to enter the SL in 2026, joining Toulouse and Catalan as permanent SL clubs that are exempt from any relegation threat.

So you would kick down the ladder our Northern clubs with a long history of survival, and who have helped to make RL a game rich northern owners and northern people will fund, play and watch in decent numbers, with enthusiasm, for some sort of dream? 

With a plan like this very quickly REAL Northern backers and real RL fans will walk away from the game. The problem with so called expansionists they can easily dream up new clubs, but can't comprehend the massive damage fast tracking them would do over the heads of Clubs that actually work and do the business......

[Toby Chopra]

16 minutes ago, steve oates said:

The owner of Crusaders actually produced many Australians and that's how they managed to climb the leagues before Samuels pulled out when he got pulled up on the issue. Derek Beaumont is certainly NOT a "similar backer" at all. 

It's only the long history Wales has with RL and the working class similarities of the games in the north and in Wales that has formed some sort of a feint bond between WRU & RFL. Now paid Welsh RU players can go on playing RU.

You are clearly not one for the "facts" even though you could look them up?  In future why not look them up first and then you will be able to have a sensible debate. 

Every expansion club relies on Australian players because there's an almost unlimited supply of professional quality players from there, whereas the northern player pool has been stagnant for years.

But notwithstanding that, the "facts" are that Crusaders were central to the development of at least a dozen players as rugby league footballers who went on to play for the Welsh national team, Ben Flower, Elliot Kear, Gil Dudson prominent among them. 

It wasn't sustainable, more's the pity, but it worked in producing Welsh players while it was alive.       

[nadera78]

24 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I think all the things you list that need to be in place for a Welsh SL team show why it's a real long shot, and probably not worth anyone's money at this point in time.

But your paragraph on a south Wales SL academy feeding into existing SL clubs is spot on. Run that for 5 years and you'll have a half decent Welsh team that you can do something with, and participation in and visibility of league in Wales should grow from there. Then, maybe, a decade from now a SL franchise comes back on the table.

 

At the moment, the Welsh U16s put together some good performances but the players often return to union because the only RL option involves relocating to the north of England to join a SL academy at 16. A Welsh academy might alleviate that, or at least make relocating a more palatable option if they're a few years older when it comes time to make a decision.  We'd still lose a few, no doubt, but it would certainly help.

[headtackle]

25 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Well, the proposed IMG model does provide for that possibility, but not on a wing and a prayer. Those London and Cardiff clubs would have to demonstrate a level of financial guarantees on a par with what Dolphins are putting up in the NRL to gain Cat A status in the new IMG system.

If someone comes in and put their money where their mouth is - guaranteed - them I'm all for it, even it it displaces one of the other clubs you mentioned. But I wouldn't hold your breath on that front.       

Investment in new “franchises “ will be more likely and attractive if investors know they are not going to be relegated 

Too much of a gamble at the moment 

 

[Toby Chopra]

Just now, nadera78 said:

At the moment, the Welsh U16s put together some good performances but the players often return to union because the only RL option involves relocating to the north of England to join a SL academy at 16. A Welsh academy might alleviate that, or at least make relocating a more palatable option if they're a few years older when it comes time to make a decision.  We'd still lose a few, no doubt, but it would certainly help.

Exactly, 16's too young to ask them to move, when there's other rugby and educational opportunities on their doorstep. 19 is ok in my view, if you're serious abut a sports career, you need to be in an elite environment by then. Same applies to players from London & SE. 

[Toby Chopra]

2 minutes ago, headtackle said:

Investment in new “franchises “ will be more likely and attractive if investors know they are not going to be relegated 

Too much of a gamble at the moment 

 

As I say, the IMG model provides for that. We'll see if it attracts investment on the scale needed to grow a new club. 

[steve oates]

3 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

Oh look, it's Mr Whippet. Come along to tell us why RL will never amount to anything outside the M62.

Who is "us"??  Many many posters on here easily recognise these fantasies (and the people who deliberately keep bringing them up) and probably steer clear of them despite them having been discussed to death over the years since Superleague began. 26 years of Superleague that has for me as a Northerner fan of the game been fantastic. 

Perhaps you would like to discuss the point I make rather than insult me?

If you replace clubs who have actually worked for 126 years for clubs who will find it impossible to "work" operating outside the M62 bubble then the game dies. How is it you still believe RL outside the heartlands can ever work given the mountain of evidence it cannot and consequently has not worked

[Pie tries]

33 minutes ago, Jughead said:

New clubs, of which IMG themselves have stated they have no interest in right now, is pie in the sky off-season chat. The addition of a funded Welsh Academy, with longer term aims is more realistic and looks to have a suitable strategy to it that would benefit the game internationally and domestically. 

Absolutely spot on.

Get more and more Welsh lads playing the game, especially juniors. Give credibility to international game by having numbers playing. From small acorns clubs will grow - and if and when funding available a route in RL. Not SL, should be organic growth, long term planning - perhaps our sports greatest weakness

[steve oates]

10 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Every expansion club relies on Australian players because there's an almost unlimited supply of professional quality players from there, whereas the northern player pool has been stagnant for years.

But notwithstanding that, the "facts" are that Crusaders were central to the development of at least a dozen players as rugby league footballers who went on to play for the Welsh national team, Ben Flower, Elliot Kear, Gil Dudson prominent among them. 

It wasn't sustainable, more's the pity, but it worked in producing Welsh players while it was alive.       

Absolutely there are players who are more suited to one game rather than the other. Having Celtic Crusaders in the league brought us a few great welsh RU players into the RL game....... 

We still have a welsh club in our Leagues that is doing (or trying to do) the same thing. But you may consider that this isn't working anymore??

[steve oates]

10 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Every expansion club relies on Australian players because there's an almost unlimited supply of professional quality players from there, whereas the northern player pool has been stagnant for years.

But notwithstanding that, the "facts" are that Crusaders were central to the development of at least a dozen players as rugby league footballers who went on to play for the Welsh national team, Ben Flower, Elliot Kear, Gil Dudson prominent among them. 

It wasn't sustainable, more's the pity, but it worked in producing Welsh players while it was alive.       

Absolutely there are players who are more suited to one game rather than the other. Having Celtic Crusaders in the league brought us a few great welsh RU players into the RL game....... 

We still have a welsh club in our Leagues that is doing (or trying to do) the same thing. But you may consider that this isn't working anymore??

[headtackle]

A key thing for clubs and IMG is how they leverage off the World Cup

Hopefully they will not just fritter away the profile we have had and the international game as they did last time