Castleford stadium.

[Fevrover]

1 hour ago, Morris Wanchuk said:

My point was, Fev have achieved a great deal, but if you’ve only so much funding & you’ve got to put together a SL squad, you are reliant on partners to get you going. No club has funded an all singing & dancing stadium off their own back.

Cas & Wakey are both easy targets, but both have had schemes stall or cancelled for various reasons. You could write a good book about the shenanigans that have gone on surrounding Newmarket/Belle Vue this last decade.

If Fev had got promoted in 98, I personally don’t believe Post Office Rd would be in as good a nick as it is now. The pressure of staying in SL would’ve been the main priority.

We will never know but the stands were were done by VOLUNTEERS. 

[phiggins]

1 hour ago, Morris Wanchuk said:

The pressure of staying in SL would’ve been the main priority.

Cas also had a 6 year licensing period where some funds could be diverted to ground improvements did they not?

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

On 28/10/2023 at 12:29, OMEGA said:

Well let’s be really honest then

• Warrington should never have been allowed in SL when at Wilderspool
• St Helens should never have been allowed in SL when at Knowsley Road
• Hull FC should never have been allowed in SL when at Boothferry Park
• HKR should never have been allowed in SL before New Craven Park was refurbished
• Salford should never have been allowed in SL when at The Willows

You see where I’m going here?

Some of those clubs have been very lucky that their need for a new stadium coincided with some other 3rd party’s need for new commercial developments and also that it happened at a time of economic prosperity making their new stadiums financially viable.

Some fans have very short memories and/or are Johnny come lately’s whose knowledge of the game is puddle deep. 
Should maybe be thankful that their clubs got the stadium over the line and not descend into arrogant and selfish snobbery when judging the efforts of clubs who weren’t so lucky!

I can't speak for the others, but I know Hull KR weren't lucky, we just decided to do stuff

- We laid a brand new, full size pitch before the promotion season, replacing the postage-stamp sized one within the dog and speedway tracks. Cas haven't managed to lay a full size pitch at Wheldon Road since 1926. Bradford invited the speedway back in so don't even have proper in-goal areas in 2023.

- We extended the East Stand and roof before promotion. Wakefield have barely roofed any of the West terrace after they knocked the old stand down in 1986.

- We built a temporary stand for away fans in time for our first SL season. 

- We replaced that with a brand new North stand and hospitality suites, generating funding from a variety of sources to get it done. It was a real battle, but we'd been told SL required it so we found a way to get it done.

Castleford have had the same amount of time, and over a decade more of Sky TV money, and all they've ever bothered to do is occassionally paint the place. Oh, and give it a succession of daft names without seemingly spending the sponsors' money improving the place. Licensing should have dealt with it, but at least now finally the IMG gradings might. 

 

[phiggins]

5 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Licensing should have dealt with it, but at least now finally the IMG gradings might. 

 

Unfortunately, while the IMG gradings might prompt action, they still actually reward a sub-standard stadium with half a point. If Cas already had an extra point, on top of the half point they are claiming was missed off their score in error. They probably wouldn't be overly concerned about getting that extra point. 

[M j M]

1 hour ago, Morris Wanchuk said:

My point was, Fev have achieved a great deal, but if you’ve only so much funding & you’ve got to put together a SL squad, you are reliant on partners to get you going. No club has funded an all singing & dancing stadium off their own back.

Cas & Wakey are both easy targets, but both have had schemes stall or cancelled for various reasons. You could write a good book about the shenanigans that have gone on surrounding Newmarket/Belle Vue this last decade.

If Fev had got promoted in 98, I personally don’t believe Post Office Rd would be in as good a nick as it is now. The pressure of staying in SL would’ve been the main priority.

I don't think this is quite correct. What Cas and Wakey have both suffered from is a lack of certainty. Not, before the spreadsheet fans interject, about where they will be in the league system but more what their stadium strategy was. Fev knew they were staying at POR so could invest/work with fans to invest in that ground. Both Cas and Wakey have spent hundreds of thousands on legal and planning fees with the aim of moving away from Wheldon Rd and Belle Vue. They weren't in a position to plough money into spending more than the essential on the old grounds when they fully expected they were going to move away.

The collapse of those schemes is where this has all gone wrong. They were both valid developments that should have given the clubs brand new stadia. I didn't personally believe the locations were the best but the failure of them - and the council's disinterest/bungling - is what really marks those two clubs out from every other club in the league which has been able to progress their stadium plans.

Finger pointers from other SL clubs mostly don't take the time to understand any of the issues involved whilst simultaneously pretending their clubs either haven't had significant outside assistance or managed to clear all the planning and development hurdles, with council backing, that Cas and Wakey fell at.

[dboy]

29 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I can't speak for the others, but I know Hull KR weren't lucky, we just decided to do stuff

- We laid a brand new, full size pitch before the promotion season, replacing the postage-stamp sized one within the dog and speedway tracks. Cas haven't managed to lay a full size pitch at Wheldon Road since 1926. Bradford invited the speedway back in so don't even have proper in-goal areas in 2023.

- We extended the East Stand and roof before promotion. Wakefield have barely roofed any of the West terrace after they knocked the old stand down in 1986.

- We built a temporary stand for away fans in time for our first SL season. 

- We replaced that with a brand new North stand and hospitality suites, generating funding from a variety of sources to get it done. It was a real battle, but we'd been told SL required it so we found a way to get it done.

Castleford have had the same amount of time, and over a decade more of Sky TV money, and all they've ever bothered to do is occassionally paint the place. Oh, and give it a succession of daft names without seemingly spending the sponsors' money improving the place. Licensing should have dealt with it, but at least now finally the IMG gradings might. 

 

All that and you still have a 3-sided ground.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

54 minutes ago, phiggins said:

Unfortunately, while the IMG gradings might prompt action, they still actually reward a sub-standard stadium with half a point. If Cas already had an extra point, on top of the half point they are claiming was missed off their score in error. They probably wouldn't be overly concerned about getting that extra point. 

Yes, and we've already had their MD going on fan podcasts saying words to the effect of "all we need to do it stick 500 temporary seats on top of a terrace in order to get the points". That's not quite the intent behind this whole exercise!

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

41 minutes ago, M j M said:

I don't think this is quite correct. What Cas and Wakey have both suffered from is a lack of certainty. Not, before the spreadsheet fans interject, about where they will be in the league system but more what their stadium strategy was. Fev knew they were staying at POR so could invest/work with fans to invest in that ground. Both Cas and Wakey have spent hundreds of thousands on legal and planning fees with the aim of moving away from Wheldon Rd and Belle Vue. They weren't in a position to plough money into spending more than the essential on the old grounds when they fully expected they were going to move away.

The collapse of those schemes is where this has all gone wrong. They were both valid developments that should have given the clubs brand new stadia. I didn't personally believe the locations were the best but the failure of them - and the council's disinterest/bungling - is what really marks those two clubs out from every other club in the league which has been able to progress their stadium plans.

Finger pointers from other SL clubs mostly don't take the time to understand any of the issues involved whilst simultaneously pretending their clubs either haven't had significant outside assistance or managed to clear all the planning and development hurdles, with council backing, that Cas and Wakey fell at.

I reckon I've spent as much on planning fees as the Cas club has in regard to any of their proposed moves (since ca1974 by the way) away from WR.......

[M j M]

1 minute ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

I reckon I've spent as much on planning fees as the Cas club has in regard to any of their proposed moves (since ca1974 by the way) away from WR.......

Really... tell us more.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

33 minutes ago, dboy said:

All that and you still have a 3-sided ground.

  

I love the 3-sided ground, Craven Streat is brilliant and I hope they never stick a stand there 

Although to be fair we do still have a southern terrace, so a full four sides, it's just that its almost in Rotterdam and you can't see the match even through the binoculars you used to need, because of the street food vans and bars in the way these days. Personally I've asked Paul Lakin to still put Hull FC fans there for the last two home derby matches, but he said that would be a step too far. Missed opportunity in my opinion!!

[Taffy Tiger]

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I can't speak for the others, but I know Hull KR weren't lucky, we just decided to do stuff

- We laid a brand new, full size pitch before the promotion season, replacing the postage-stamp sized one within the dog and speedway tracks. Cas haven't managed to lay a full size pitch at Wheldon Road since 1926. Bradford invited the speedway back in so don't even have proper in-goal areas in 2023.

- We extended the East Stand and roof before promotion. Wakefield have barely roofed any of the West terrace after they knocked the old stand down in 1986.

- We built a temporary stand for away fans in time for our first SL season. 

- We replaced that with a brand new North stand and hospitality suites, generating funding from a variety of sources to get it done. It was a real battle, but we'd been told SL required it so we found a way to get it done.

Castleford have had the same amount of time, and over a decade more of Sky TV money, and all they've ever bothered to do is occassionally paint the place. Oh, and give it a succession of daft names without seemingly spending the sponsors' money improving the place. Licensing should have dealt with it, but at least now finally the IMG gradings might. 

 

 

Not strictly true though HKR B . You talk about the size of WR , but none of your stands would fit down the whole side of WR . Your main stand is 10 metres short of full length . The stand opposite is barely half of that . How many spectators can get into the University building next to it ? However , the new stand behind the sticks is amazing tbf . In effect , you only have one side fully filled in (behind the sticks) . For all it's fauls WR does fully cover all 4 sides of the pitch . HKR certainly does not .

[dboy]

16 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

 

Not strictly true though HKR B . You talk about the size of WR , but none of your stands would fit down the whole side of WR . Your main stand is 10 metres short of full length . The stand opposite is barely half of that . How many spectators can get into the University building next to it ? However , the new stand behind the sticks is amazing tbf . In effect , you only have one side fully filled in (behind the sticks) . For all it's fauls WR does fully cover all 4 sides of the pitch . HKR certainly does not .

Cas pitch is 88m long and can't be extended.

HKR defo was short (they got caught out marking line intervals at 9 metre intervals in the late 90's), but I thought I'd read that they extended it when they re-laid they're frankly awful previous pitch.

The stands are a hotch-potch - I'm amazed it's held up as some kind of decent venue, though it will be nice when it's finished.

[Taffy Tiger]

2 minutes ago, dboy said:

Cas pitch is 88m long and can't be extended.

HKR defo was short (they got caught out marking line intervals at 9 metre intervals in the late 90's), but I thought I'd read that they extended it when they re-laid they're frankly awful previous pitch.

The stands are a hotch-potch - I'm amazed it's held up as some kind of decent venue, though it will be nice when it's finished.

Thanks for the reply  dBoy . I think there may have been a misunderstanding (my fault as I wasn't clear in my post) . I wasn't saying HKR pitch isn't long enough , I was saying that even if you took their longest stand it wouldn't fit all the way down a shorter WR pitch . It stops at the 10 metre line , and for reference I think Cas pitch is 100 yards long . This was the original pitch length before the metric system was used , when requirements were a half way line , a 10 yard line from half way (ie 40 yards) for kick-offs,  and a 25 yard line . 100 yards would equate to 91.44 metres , but if you have it on authority that it's only 88m then that's fair enough.

[dboy]

The distance between the 40m and the 30m is only 4 metres (at best), making the overall length 12 metres short of the 100m optimum.

Wane's new plans to survive Jungle (wigantoday.net)

“They have a ‘10-metres’ on each side of halfway which is about four-metres - it’s very different,” continued Wane.

[Taffy Tiger]

8 minutes ago, dboy said:

The distance between the 40m and the 30m is only 4 metres (at best), making the overall length 12 metres short of the 100m optimum.

Wane's new plans to survive Jungle (wigantoday.net)

“They have a ‘10-metres’ on each side of halfway which is about four-metres - it’s very different,” continued Wane.

With all due respect dBoy Shaun Wane saying it's about 4 metres doesn't count as exact though does it lol ? 

As mentioned , when the ground was  built and up to metrification , RL was played on a pitch that was 100 yards long . This is the size of the Cas ground as I understand it , which is 91.88 metres long .

I think that if you said to Shaun Wane that it's actually 5 metres not 4 then he wouldn't argue with that 

[dboy]

OK.

Next time you are there, have a look with your own eyes.

I can also tell the Cas in goal areas are short of regulation and they have a special dispensation on safety grounds (it's the only way to fit in the 3m perimeter spacing to the hoardings.

I do hope that if ever Cas do get the rebuild, they extend to the railway end and get a full sized pitch in.

 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

1 hour ago, M j M said:

Really... tell us more.

I used a simple direct correlation between number of plans submitted and cost.

[Barley Mow]

11 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

With all due respect dBoy Shaun Wane saying it's about 4 metres doesn't count as exact though does it lol ? 

As mentioned , when the ground was  built and up to metrification , RL was played on a pitch that was 100 yards long . This is the size of the Cas ground as I understand it , which is 91.88 metres long .

I think that if you said to Shaun Wane that it's actually 5 metres not 4 then he wouldn't argue with that 

Yes, when Wheldon Road was laid out they made it big enough for a 100 yd field - 91.44m.

It may be shorter than 91.44m today though because we now have a requirement for runoff areas around the outside to protect players. That requirement won't have existed when WR was first used.

The change to 100m fields plus the requirement for runoff areas could mean 88m is about right.  

[Damien]

3 hours ago, Fevrover said:

We will never know but the stands were were done by VOLUNTEERS. 

I always think this kind of stuff is great and I know a lot of amateur clubs do this kind of thing.

I'm unsure why more clubs don't do more of it. Surely small incremental improvements, such as new toilet blocks etc, could be done in this way fairly cheaply. It doesn't sound much but small incremental improvements add up.

[Kirmonds pouch]

Slightly OT

BV has always had a number of advantages over both WR nad PO.

1: It's pitch was always full size, and flat. Now it's super flat and the height of modern pitch technology.

2: Despite what people think BV is the least hemmed in, even the West terrace is bigger than it appears.

3: It's on a main road with excellent access.

4: It's floodlighting is in a different class to the other two grounds, and has been since the 1990's, how Cass get away with those candlestick lamps amazes me. 

5: Trinity has way way way more corporate than both the other clubs combined. Function rooms, 4 covered x bars, 20 odd boxes, a couple of restaurants. Even have a big screen now.

6: Decent car parking compared to the others and an impressive reception.

Truth is that BV is the only ground in the WMDC that is capable of being revamped to A grade, at a cost that can be afforded. A few million will get you a steady tidy up, and maybe just scrape a grade A. Six million will get you two very basic but new stands for the West and south and will allow us to walk a Grade A.

Fev need a new flat full size pitch and new lighting as well as a revamp of the top end. That will get them a B+ for a few million. But will need more capacity for an A, and that will require a new main stand, similar to Trinity's new East stand. So in total you're talking 12 million.

Cas need to start again, there is not one part of the current ground that you'd call grade A. A new main stand, redeveloped terracing on the other sides. Lengthen the pitch, new lights and so on to get a grade A. I can't see much change from 20 million to get all that.

Realistically BV is the only WMDC club capable of developing it's ground within the next few years to reach IMG criteria. Not gloating, it's just the truth. Whether we do develop BV I couldn't say, all I'm saying is that Ellis probably could if he wanted to. I don't think the others can.

 

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Taffy Tiger said:

 

Not strictly true though HKR B . You talk about the size of WR , but none of your stands would fit down the whole side of WR . Your main stand is 10 metres short of full length . The stand opposite is barely half of that . How many spectators can get into the University building next to it ? However , the new stand behind the sticks is amazing tbf . In effect , you only have one side fully filled in (behind the sticks) . For all it's fauls WR does fully cover all 4 sides of the pitch . HKR certainly does not .

Hull KR have 10,400 capacity stadium, with 4,500 seated, 10 exec boxes, two restaurants with views of the pitch and another supporters bar that also has pitchside windows. We did have temporary seating at the south end, and would still if we wanted, but replaced that with what's probably the best pre- and post-match experience in the sport. Welford Road it is not, and yes there's stuff on all 4 sides of the ground!

PS... it also has a 100 metre pitch, a radical innovation! 

[Taffy Tiger]

dBoy and Barley Mow . Good point, and what you are saying would make sense . Perhaps 88m is nearer the actual size now . 

[Taffy Tiger]

14 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Hull KR have 10,400 capacity stadium, with 4,500 seated, 10 exec boxes, two restaurants with views of the pitch and another supporters bar that also has pitchside windows. We did have temporary seating at the south end, and would still if we wanted, but replaced that with what's probably the best pre- and post-match experience in the sport. Welford Road it is not, and yes there's stuff on all 4 sides of the ground!

PS... it also has a 100 metre pitch, a radical innovation! 

Haha , like it HKB, and of course you are right . What HKR have done is amazing and they should be given all the credit deserved . My point , however flippant , was in reference to the 3 sides of the stadium remark , although I do agree that you made the point that you prefer this which is fine .

I hope Cas can get the PP  and over the next couple of years develop the ground to bring it up the the required standard so desperately needed . Criticism can and should be levelled at us for not having done something sooner , but in our defence PP for a new ground was given at J32 , then Covid hit . What is happening now is a direct fallout from then , and Cas can't really be held responsible for that . We just don't have the cash to fund it ourselves . 

 

One final point of note , I would strongly disagree that New Craven Park is better than Welford Road . I think that all Leicester Tigers Fans would agree with me as well haha

Edited October 30, 2023 by Taffy Tiger

[Morris Wanchuk]

3 hours ago, Fevrover said:

We will never know but the stands were were done by VOLUNTEERS. 

No arguments there, done a great job.

[Morris Wanchuk]

3 hours ago, M j M said:

I don't think this is quite correct. What Cas and Wakey have both suffered from is a lack of certainty. Not, before the spreadsheet fans interject, about where they will be in the league system but more what their stadium strategy was. Fev knew they were staying at POR so could invest/work with fans to invest in that ground. Both Cas and Wakey have spent hundreds of thousands on legal and planning fees with the aim of moving away from Wheldon Rd and Belle Vue. They weren't in a position to plough money into spending more than the essential on the old grounds when they fully expected they were going to move away.

The collapse of those schemes is where this has all gone wrong. They were both valid developments that should have given the clubs brand new stadia. I didn't personally believe the locations were the best but the failure of them - and the council's disinterest/bungling - is what really marks those two clubs out from every other club in the league which has been able to progress their stadium plans.

Finger pointers from other SL clubs mostly don't take the time to understand any of the issues involved whilst simultaneously pretending their clubs either haven't had significant outside assistance or managed to clear all the planning and development hurdles, with council backing, that Cas and Wakey fell at.

Excellent post, that’s what I was trying so say!