Four Nations

[UTK]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

We are talking about a 4 Nations. There is nothing stopping these bowl matches and more happening beneath that as now. I am sure PNG could host a bowl type 4 nations as now with the same government funding. The Oceanic Cup was much more analogous to these Pacific Championships than any 4 Nations so not sure why you've put it there.

Some of those 4 nations you cite based on average attendances also don't tell the full story. They were very profitable with big blue chip sponsors like Gillette. If an average attendance was all that mattered we wouldn't have had Australia v NZ at Warrington, the Stoop or Loftus Road and they could have just been in Australia or NZ.

The NRL are never slow to say these Pacific international matches ordinarily lose money. They have cut the World Cup from 16 teams to 10 due to cost. I don't believe that matches now being underwritten by government money is going to make them more profitable than what a 4 Nations could be. I also don't believe that this funding couldn't be sought anyway.

Only added the Oceanic Cup to compare to the present Pacific Championships as a sidenote, we would've had the Pacific 4N equivalent this year to compare if the NRL didn't bottle their CBA negotiations but not to be. 

Do you really not agree that we've outgrown the 4N format? The competitiveness of the Pacific Nations has been the only bright spark in the International game for nearly 2 decades now. Rugby League Internationals have finally begun to shake the foregone conclusion tag and this structure now allows a Tonga/Samoa/etc to play AUS/NZ every single year as opposed to once a cycle if they're lucky enough to qualify as the 4th Nation. We expose such nations much more consistently to tier 1 nations in this structure

Those NRL comments on Pacific Internationals have always been contained to underwriting the former mid-season tests that didn't involve AUS/NZ so have no relevance to these tournaments, those matches were very poorly attended double-headers in Western Sydney - not that this justifies cutting them from the schedule. I don't disagree that previous 4N were profitable tournaments - asserting that they were "easily" more profitable than these current tournaments feels like a massive stretch considering the significant financial support received and comparatively strong attendances observed.

With all this considered, the consistency afforded by these tournaments in allowing each team to play in front of their own fans against top tier nations every single year provides far superior value to international rugby league than the alternating nature of the 4N did. Such consistency both develops these nations on the field and allows the international game to build towards consistently strong revenue streams available through broadcasting support - something that simply isn't possible in a cross-hemisphere arrangement due to time zones. So long as the England opposition problem is solved by 1 of these 6 Nations travelling north each year I feel the current structure is much more beneficial to international RL as a whole than the 4N, hence my proposition that we have outgrown that format. Note that this stance on an alternating hemisphere tournament would be altered if mid-season Internationals weren't off the table, but in the present reality of our international landscape I don't this opinion as overly egregious at all.

[Damien]

2 hours ago, UTK said:

Only added the Oceanic Cup to compare to the present Pacific Championships as a sidenote, we would've had the Pacific 4N equivalent this year to compare if the NRL didn't bottle their CBA negotiations but not to be. 

Do you really not agree that we've outgrown the 4N format? The competitiveness of the Pacific Nations has been the only bright spark in the International game for nearly 2 decades now. Rugby League Internationals have finally begun to shake the foregone conclusion tag and this structure now allows a Tonga/Samoa/etc to play AUS/NZ every single year as opposed to once a cycle if they're lucky enough to qualify as the 4th Nation. We expose such nations much more consistently to tier 1 nations in this structure

Those NRL comments on Pacific Internationals have always been contained to underwriting the former mid-season tests that didn't involve AUS/NZ so have no relevance to these tournaments, those matches were very poorly attended double-headers in Western Sydney - not that this justifies cutting them from the schedule. I don't disagree that previous 4N were profitable tournaments - asserting that they were "easily" more profitable than these current tournaments feels like a massive stretch considering the significant financial support received and comparatively strong attendances observed.

With all this considered, the consistency afforded by these tournaments in allowing each team to play in front of their own fans against top tier nations every single year provides far superior value to international rugby league than the alternating nature of the 4N did. Such consistency both develops these nations on the field and allows the international game to build towards consistently strong revenue streams available through broadcasting support - something that simply isn't possible in a cross-hemisphere arrangement due to time zones. So long as the England opposition problem is solved by 1 of these 6 Nations travelling north each year I feel the current structure is much more beneficial to international RL as a whole than the 4N, hence my proposition that we have outgrown that format. Note that this stance on an alternating hemisphere tournament would be altered if mid-season Internationals weren't off the table, but in the present reality of our international landscape I don't this opinion as overly egregious at all.

I wouldn't have a 4 nations as before in isolation and I wouldnt have it every year. I wouldn't even necessarily have just 4 teams either, the 8 team Confederations Cup in a mid World Cup cycle, which the 4 Nations was scrapped for, was a perfect idea. Then other competitions and tests either side of that.

I also believe we are far bigger than these Pacific Championships. If you think we've outgrown a 4 Nations then we've certainly outgrown a Tri Nations consisting of Australia when they feel like it, NZ and A.N Other. I think the current format does a Pacific Championship a disservice. It could and should be much better and involve the top 6 Pacific teams playing each other. Bigger and better but not every year as now.

These lack of games and scheduling issues are firmly caused by the NRL seeking to limit games and scrapping mid season international games. The perfect place for this Pacific Championship is a over 3 SOO weekends.

Elite international teams only playing 2 or 3 games a year will never be a satisfactory solution to me.

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Damien

[Coco]

The Four Nations was a brilliant concept. Was really disappointed when they cancelled the competition. The only way England / Great Britain will get stronger is regularly playing Aus and New Zealand every year.  The sport baffles me, with the decisions it makes.  It totally ignores the fans.  It's no surprise the sport never takes the steps it's needs to become successful.  

[jim_57]

A 4 Nations would honestly do as the fabled “2nd IRL Tournament” at this point. You’d hope it could expand in time to 5 or 6 but getting it back once a cycle would be a start.

What does England do if Samoa don’t tour next year and none of the other Pacific Nations take up the offer? Probably 3 options, none of them great.

1. Invite Lebanon to join with the 2 best Europe nations, probably Ireland & France to have a “Northern Hemisphere 4N”. Try and get buy in from Ireland’s huge heritage pool.. yes I know but the alternative is England putting 70+ on Wales or not playing at all.

2. Attempt to tour the Pacific and fit in 4-5 games wherever they can against Australia, NZ, PNG, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa & Lebanon. If they keep the 3 team tournaments for Pacific Cup they could try and play the ‘bye’ team, plus one warm up and maybe another game the week of the Pacific Finals (probably have to be Lebanon for that).

3. Play France, Ireland or Wales in a friendly with mostly/all Super League players and call it quits for the year.

[crashmon]

What format we have at the end of the season (4 nations, 3 test tour from a SH team whatever) should not stop having a regular mid season internation every year vs france.  Ideally in France

[Dunbar]

I may have missed an announcement or an update but why is there talk now of Samoa not playing England at the end of next year?

[Barley Mow]

37 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I may have missed an announcement or an update but why is there talk now of Samoa not playing England at the end of next year?

The suggestion is that the financial implications of this year's Tonga tour will put a stop to it.

@Tommygilf has a source who said that 50,000 tickets needed selling this year to cover costs and not doing so would risk a Samoan tour next year.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

10 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

The suggestion is that the financial implications of this year's Tonga tour will put a stop to it.

@Tommygilf has a source who said that 50,000 tickets needed selling this year to cover costs and not doing so would risk a Samoan tour next year.

Fair enough 

Call it off now then I think 

Most RL fans don't care about internationals and as of this weekend I'm joining the apathy too 

I'll select the most exciting SL games only from now on 

[Coco]

I don't understand the need to play France.  England need to play teams  from the Southern Hemisphere in mid season tests, So do France.  

[crashmon]

8 minutes ago, Coco said:

I don't understand the need to play France.  England need to play teams  from the Southern Hemisphere in mid season tests, So do France.  

There is more chance of Playing a RL team from Pluto than ANY SH team coming over mid season.

[Damien]

10 minutes ago, Coco said:

I don't understand the need to play France.  England need to play teams  from the Southern Hemisphere in mid season tests, So do France.  

The NRL have scrapped the mid season international break so how is playing southern hemisphere teams mid season possible?

Edited October 30, 2023 by Damien

[Coco]

It would be great to have leagues of 4 nations every year. League 1 - Australia / New Zealand / England/ Samoa. League 2 - Tonga / PNG/ Fiji./ Lebenon. League 3 - France / Wales / Cook Islands / ? . Have Promotion and relegation between the leagues. 

Could create another league for teams like Serbia / Holland/ Germany / Scotland / Ireland/ .

 

Play them in the Southern Hemisphere. It would be great for all nations to play regular international games with relevance. Play them end of season for 3/4 weeks. Winner decided on points.  

[Mathius Hellwege]

6 hours ago, jim_57 said:

A 4 Nations would honestly do as the fabled “2nd IRL Tournament” at this point. You’d hope it could expand in time to 5 or 6 but getting it back once a cycle would be a start.

What does England do if Samoa don’t tour next year and none of the other Pacific Nations take up the offer? Probably 3 options, none of them great.

1. Invite Lebanon to join with the 2 best Europe nations, probably Ireland & France to have a “Northern Hemisphere 4N”. Try and get buy in from Ireland’s huge heritage pool.. yes I know but the alternative is England putting 70+ on Wales or not playing at all.

2. Attempt to tour the Pacific and fit in 4-5 games wherever they can against Australia, NZ, PNG, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa & Lebanon. If they keep the 3 team tournaments for Pacific Cup they could try and play the ‘bye’ team, plus one warm up and maybe another game the week of the Pacific Finals (probably have to be Lebanon for that).

3. Play France, Ireland or Wales in a friendly with mostly/all Super League players and call it quits for the year.

Option 2 will not work as without a touring team there will be a SH4N and only the lower three countries would be available

As 3 is total surrender you must try 1, perhaps with Jamaica to get an international touch

[Mathius Hellwege]

5 hours ago, crashmon said:

What format we have at the end of the season (4 nations, 3 test tour from a SH team whatever) should not stop having a regular mid season internation every year vs france.  Ideally in France

France killed that with their behaviour this year

[Mathius Hellwege]

5 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I may have missed an announcement or an update but why is there talk now of Samoa not playing England at the end of next year?

because it was never officially announced and the RFL screwed up the Tonga tour by playing all games in the M62 corridor which is poor, declining and does not like international RL

[Mathius Hellwege]

4 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Fair enough 

Call it off now then I think 

Most RL fans don't care about internationals and as of this weekend I'm joining the apathy too 

I'll select the most exciting SL games only from now on 

the M62 corridor does not care. London, Sheffield, Coventry, Newcastle...care

[JonM]

12 hours ago, gingerjon said:

I genuinely can't now remember. What is the outline set-up for 2024 and 2025 based on the IRL statement from a bit back?

Current plan for England is:

2024 is TBD, but "official" sources have mentioned both the possibility of Samoa touring here and a 'tri-nations' competition involving England and France. 

Australia 2025 down under

World Cup 2026 TBD location

New Zealand 2027 in the UK

Australia 2028 in the UK (but likely to be cancelled due to El Niño, bad juju, crowd trouble at the 2028 Euros, or something). 

[UTK]

8 hours ago, Damien said:

I wouldn't have a 4 nations as before in isolation and I wouldnt have it every year. I wouldn't even necessarily have just 4 teams either, the 8 team Confederations Cup in a mid World Cup cycle, which the 4 Nations was scrapped for, was a perfect idea. Then other competitions and tests either side of that.

I also believe we are far bigger than these Pacific Championships. If you think we've outgrown a 4 Nations then we've certainly outgrown a Tri Nations consisting of Australia when they feel like it, NZ and A.N Other. I think the current format does a Pacific Championship a disservice. It could and should be much better and involve the top 6 Pacific teams playing each other. Bigger and better but not every year as now.

These lack of games and scheduling issues are firmly caused by the NRL seeking to limit games and scrapping mid season international games. The perfect place for this Pacific Championship is a over 3 SOO weekends.

Elite international teams only playing 2 or 3 games a year will never be a satisfactory solution to me.

 

To be honest I agree wholeheartedly with all of this and you've probably spelled out the best-case scenario.

Having an 8-team comp once a cycle leaves sides away from home twice every 8 years during a post-season window. Pacific Champs would also 100% ideally be a 6 Nations comp as a format that is shown to work extremely well in the other code. 

The only thing preventing either from being a perfect idea is the lack of mid-season internationals, which as we both agree should have been occurring over 3 rep rounds mid-season. Unfortunately I don't see them coming back so that means even with us having no internationals at home during those 2/8 years, which while better than the previous 4N structure is still far from ideal. Additionally, holding a 6-nations post-season leaves England with nobody to play so unless we're willing to leave them without SH opponents for 2/4 years per cycle the Pacific Champs are should be effectively limited to 4/5N in the current structure.

Crux is that while all that is probably the best-case scenario, the lack of mid-season internationals creates additional problems and unfortunately I can't see a realistic scenario where they return anytime soon. 

[sam4731]

1 hour ago, JonM said:

Current plan for England is:

2024 is TBD, but "official" sources have mentioned both the possibility of Samoa touring here and a 'tri-nations' competition involving England and France. 

Australia 2025 down under

World Cup 2026 TBD location

New Zealand 2027 in the UK

Australia 2028 in the UK (but likely to be cancelled due to El Niño, bad juju, crowd trouble at the 2028 Euros, or something). 

I like your optimism that 2028 is the only one of these events that will be cancelled. 12 months is a long time in RL. The NRL (whoops, sorry the IRL) might suddenly decide to move the goalposts.

[Welshleaguelover]

I prefered the Tri-Nations. But that might be nostalgia from childhood and my Welshness talking for me.

Being in a pub in Wales with my old man and the locals actually caring about what was happening on the field.

 

Bring back GB

[17 stone giant]

1 hour ago, Welshleaguelover said:

I prefered the Tri-Nations. But that might be nostalgia from childhood and my Welshness talking for me.

Being in a pub in Wales with my old man and the locals actually caring about what was happening on the field.

 

Bring back GB

Even number of teams makes more sense. With you on GB though.

[17 stone giant]

2 hours ago, JonM said:

Australia 2025 down under

World Cup 2026 TBD location

So what home games will we get in 2025 and 2026 (assuming WC is in southern hemisphere)?

France mid season?

[jim_57]

4 hours ago, Mathius Hellwege said:

Option 2 will not work as without a touring team there will be a SH4N and only the lower three countries would be available

As 3 is total surrender you must try 1, perhaps with Jamaica to get an international touch

Unless they go with 2 pools of 3 with a final instead of 2 tiers but that doesn’t look likely to happen.

Option 1 wouldn’t be too bad but it would take some work. Lebanon and a heritage stacked Ireland could give England a “decent” game, France are hit and miss (more miss) but should be there as well. Could run another North Hemisphere “Bowl” 4 nations underneath that with Wales, Scotland, Italy etc and maybe include Jamaica in that.

To be honest I don’t mind the idea of having full regional championships once every World Cup cycle and this would fulfill that.

 

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, jim_57 said:

Unless they go with 2 pools of 3 with a final instead of 2 tiers but that doesn’t look likely to happen.

Option 1 wouldn’t be too bad but it would take some work. Lebanon and a heritage stacked Ireland could give England a “decent” game, France are hit and miss (more miss) but should be there as well. Could run another North Hemisphere “Bowl” 4 nations underneath that with Wales, Scotland, Italy etc and maybe include Jamaica in that.

To be honest I don’t mind the idea of having full regional championships once every World Cup cycle and this would fulfill that.

What's with you guys and the nutty idea that a Bowl would be a lesser trophy than a Cup?  FYI a bowl is bigger than a cup, not smaller.  Why else would gridiron have Bowls instead of Cups????

Edited October 31, 2023 by Big Picture

[Bamboozle]

17 hours ago, Coco said:

The Four Nations was a brilliant concept. Was really disappointed when they cancelled the competition.  But as usual with Rugby League they make constant decisions which make the sport look rather retarded.  The only way England / Great Britain will get stronger is regularly playing Aus and New Zealand every year.  The sport baffles me, with the decisions it makes.  It totally ignores the fans.  It's no surprise the sport never takes the steps it's needs to become successful.  

This.

add it to the long list that includes the ashes and the 3 test trans-Tasman series.