England vs Samoa Series

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

In the last 23 years, England and GB have played against France 20 times. 

France have played the Aussies 3 times in that period and the Kiwis 7 times. 

So in the last 23 years (including a couple of with Covid), the French have played the top nations 30 times. 

That probably indicates that it isn't just about playing tests. 

30 times in 23 years really isn't a lot.

And further to that Dave, it was more about what that would build. First and foremost, income for all parties. How many of those meagre 30 tests did France host to make money from, and even then, how many did they play outside of World Cups or 4 Nations?

England played Scotland once in our history. We've played Ireland 3 times in the past 23 years and only once outside of a World Cup iirc. Wales is slightly better, we've managed 6 games against them in 23 years - 3 of them even in Wales go us!

The main issue these nations and the RFL have is lack of money. We're now being forced into a situation where I bet we'd wished we'd spent 23 years building a NH test match scene.

[Damien]

20 minutes ago, Dave T said:

In the last 23 years, England and GB have played against France 20 times. 

France have played the Aussies 3 times in that period and the Kiwis 7 times. 

So in the last 23 years (including a couple of with Covid), the French have played the top nations 30 times. 

That probably indicates that it isn't just about playing tests. 

And this gets back to a point I raise time and time again. Its not a lack of games that is the issue when it comes to competitiveness, its a lack of full time, top flight, players.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Damien

[crashmon]

I really don't think we should be planning an Home England game next year in the Autumn. Nor a roses event either at the end of the season.  After all there will be no International Games in England in 2025 and 2026.

I actually think a lot of people won't even notice

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

its a lack of full time, top flight, players.

Had the conversation with one of our French posters a few months back about this which involved the eye opening realisation that, by participation, handball in England is roughly on a par with rugby league in France. (They don't quite overlay but they are close).

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

30 times in 23 years really isn't a lot.

And further to that Dave, it was more about what that would build. First and foremost, income for all parties. How many of those meagre 30 tests did France host to make money from, and even then, how many did they play outside of World Cups or 4 Nations?

England played Scotland once in our history. We've played Ireland 3 times in the past 23 years and only once outside of a World Cup iirc. Wales is slightly better, we've managed 6 games against them in 23 years - 3 of them even in Wales go us!

The main issue these nations and the RFL have is lack of money. We're now being forced into a situation where I bet we'd wished we'd spent 23 years building a NH test match scene.

It's regular games against the top teams, which is something people keep saying France need. They have it. They are no better than 23 years ago. 

On top of these 30 games they have played another 61. In RL terms, the France national team have been pretty lively! 

 

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Damien said:

And this gets back to a point I raise time and time again. Its not a lack of games that is the issue when it comes to competitiveness, its a lack of full time, top flight, players.

I agree. I think it is far more complicated than just playing games. But France have played games and struggled, I don't see how England playing the Home Nations annually helps them. 

I do agree they should play them, but I do think that's where the tournaments needed to come in. 

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It's regular games against the top teams, which is something people keep saying France need. They have it. They are no better than 23 years ago. 

On top of these 30 games they have played another 61. In RL terms, the France national team have been pretty lively! 

 

I think that is to take a very basic view though Dave. What they need is big events to draw interest and therefore much needed finance to fund the sport in their country. They haven't had that.

France used to play a hell of a lot of matches, particularly against European and Mediterranean based nations. They also toured as well. That much of this has fallen by the wayside too is a great shame. 

Ultimately we've gone backwards, on all fronts, from that period 20 or so years ago. Opportunities then have not been built upon. I stand by my comments about England vs Scotland/Wales/Ireland too.

[Tommygilf]

15 minutes ago, Damien said:

And this gets back to a point I raise time and time again. Its not a lack of games that is the issue when it comes to competitiveness, its a lack of full time, top flight, players.

That is a product thay produces greater competitiveness.

What they need to get there is finance. Ultimately only England can bring significant finance in the NH to these nations at the moment (and could have been for 20 odd years by this point). We do neither.

[Mathius Hellwege]

Why was the Meditarranean cup cancelled? We are never consistent

then Lebanon would be a familiar nation in Europe

Mediterranean Cup - Wikipedia

News (archive.org)

[Damien]

33 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I agree. I think it is far more complicated than just playing games. But France have played games and struggled, I don't see how England playing the Home Nations annually helps them. 

I do agree they should play them, but I do think that's where the tournaments needed to come in. 

If England play France and Wales 20 times each next year I'm not convinced there would be any significant improvement from game 1 to game 20 if nothing else changes.

A second French club in SL for a few years would help France significantly more than playing more games. 

I would still play them but it is not as simple as just playing more games and expecting France and Wales to be remotely competitive. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

17 minutes ago, Damien said:

If England play France and Wales 20 times each next year I'm not convinced there would be any significant improvement from game 1 to game 20 if nothing else changes.

A second French club in SL for a few years would help France significantly more than playing more games. 

I think this is important. It was within the RFL's power to lock in 2 French teams in to SL, and also to support the Welsh team when they were in SL and lock them in. The lack of foresight is now coming back to bite us in the behind.

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think that is to take a very basic view though Dave. What they need is big events to draw interest and therefore much needed finance to fund the sport in their country. They haven't had that.

France used to play a hell of a lot of matches, particularly against European and Mediterranean based nations. They also toured as well. That much of this has fallen by the wayside too is a great shame. 

Ultimately we've gone backwards, on all fronts, from that period 20 or so years ago. Opportunities then have not been built upon. I stand by my comments about England vs Scotland/Wales/Ireland too.

But that is a slightly different point. I agree that everything we do should be better, I think there is very little that we can call high quality.

But if we look at France, since that 2000 World Cup they have had a half-decent run at things. They have played 91 matches, a third of them against the big three, they have played England, Oz and the Kiwis at home with decent crowds, they have staged Four Nations and World Cup games and then they have played semi-regular Euro Cup games, as well as a smattering of lower ranked nations. They have had a strong team in Super League. They have also come from a place where they have had an RL presence in their country for almost 100 years. They come from a place that Ireland and Scotland (and pretty much every other Euro nation) can only dream of, but they haven't really improved internationally.

Similarly, Wales are probably next in line. They have played far fewer games - 54 matches, but again, they have played some high profile games, hosting World Cup and Four Nations matches. They had an SL club for a period, as well as an NL 1 team. They also have a decent RL heritage. Again, they have a starting point that most nations can only dream of. 

Both of the above examples really show the size of the challenge that we face, and both Ireland and Scotland are coming from way behind both of them. 

On the other side of the world, we have teams like Tonga and Samoa who are doing great just now. And people are suggesting we should replicate what the Aussies have done there. 

Tonga have played 51 matches since 2001, pretty much none at home. The Aussies have played them twice, the Kiwis 5 times.

Samoa have played 51, maybe 1 at home. The Aussies and Kiwis have played them 4 times each in 23 years.  

[gingerjon]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But that is a slightly different point. I agree that everything we do should be better, I think there is very little that we can call high quality.

But if we look at France, since that 2000 World Cup they have had a half-decent run at things. They have played 91 matches, a third of them against the big three, they have played England, Oz and the Kiwis at home with decent crowds, they have staged Four Nations and World Cup games and then they have played semi-regular Euro Cup games, as well as a smattering of lower ranked nations. They have had a strong team in Super League. They have also come from a place where they have had an RL presence in their country for almost 100 years. They come from a place that Ireland and Scotland (and pretty much every other Euro nation) can only dream of, but they haven't really improved internationally.

Similarly, Wales are probably next in line. They have played far fewer games - 54 matches, but again, they have played some high profile games, hosting World Cup and Four Nations matches. They had an SL club for a period, as well as an NL 1 team. They also have a decent RL heritage. Again, they have a starting point that most nations can only dream of. 

Both of the above examples really show the size of the challenge that we face, and both Ireland and Scotland are coming from way behind both of them. 

On the other side of the world, we have teams like Tonga and Samoa who are doing great just now. And people are suggesting we should replicate what the Aussies have done there. 

Tonga have played 51 matches since 2001, pretty much none at home. The Aussies have played them twice, the Kiwis 5 times.

Samoa have played 51, maybe 1 at home. The Aussies and Kiwis have played them 4 times each in 23 years.  

In order to replicate Tonga and Samoa for, say, Ireland and France, we are going to need there to be no major international sports already established in Ireland and France and then for significant numbers of Irish and French families to move to St Helens and then live and work in the same socio-demographic milieus as the players of St Helens. They then need to retain their French and Irish identities and stay for about 30 years, fully integrating into the sporting landscape of St Helens, with their children growing up playing rugby league.

And if that sounds ridiculous then, well, that's cos suggesting that the northern hemisphere recreates the development of Tonga and Samoa is ridiculous.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

In order to replicate Tonga and Samoa for, say, Ireland and France, we are going to need there to be no major international sports already established in Ireland and France and then for significant numbers of Irish and French families to move to St Helens and then live and work in the same socio-demographic milieus as the players of St Helens. They then need to retain their French and Irish identities and stay for about 30 years, fully integrating into the sporting landscape of St Helens, with their children growing up playing rugby league.

And if that sounds ridiculous then, well, that's cos suggesting that the northern hemisphere recreates the development of Tonga and Samoa is ridiculous.

Sounds like a plan

[eal]

Tonga and Samoa have essentially hit the jackpot. As nations they have little infrastructure and produce no players, they are simply fortunate that the majority of islanders live in Australia and NZ. I would imagine almost all of their international players were not born in the islands. France unfortunately doesn't have this advantage, unless they get a bunch of New Caledonians onboard with moving to Australia.

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

But that is a slightly different point. I agree that everything we do should be better, I think there is very little that we can call high quality.

But if we look at France, since that 2000 World Cup they have had a half-decent run at things. They have played 91 matches, a third of them against the big three, they have played England, Oz and the Kiwis at home with decent crowds, they have staged Four Nations and World Cup games and then they have played semi-regular Euro Cup games, as well as a smattering of lower ranked nations. They have had a strong team in Super League. They have also come from a place where they have had an RL presence in their country for almost 100 years. They come from a place that Ireland and Scotland (and pretty much every other Euro nation) can only dream of, but they haven't really improved internationally.

Similarly, Wales are probably next in line. They have played far fewer games - 54 matches, but again, they have played some high profile games, hosting World Cup and Four Nations matches. They had an SL club for a period, as well as an NL 1 team. They also have a decent RL heritage. Again, they have a starting point that most nations can only dream of. 

Both of the above examples really show the size of the challenge that we face, and both Ireland and Scotland are coming from way behind both of them. 

On the other side of the world, we have teams like Tonga and Samoa who are doing great just now. And people are suggesting we should replicate what the Aussies have done there. 

Tonga have played 51 matches since 2001, pretty much none at home. The Aussies have played them twice, the Kiwis 5 times.

Samoa have played 51, maybe 1 at home. The Aussies and Kiwis have played them 4 times each in 23 years.  

Playing matches is just part of it. They need more money and greater profile. We're not trying to replicate Tonga and Samoa, but we absolutely can't afford to just say "oh well" and shrug our shoulders at France and Wales in particular not developing.

Even when we did have our Tonga and Samoa (Scotland), we played them once in arguably one of the most competitive games England played against a tier 2 nation till Tonga and Samoa in the 2017 and 2021 semi finals and decided not to bother again...

Its not even like we've taken the lazy route, we've just done everything very very poorly.

[Dave T]

36 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Playing matches is just part of it. They need more money and greater profile. We're not trying to replicate Tonga and Samoa, but we absolutely can't afford to just say "oh well" and shrug our shoulders at France and Wales in particular not developing.

Even when we did have our Tonga and Samoa (Scotland), we played them once in arguably one of the most competitive games England played against a tier 2 nation till Tonga and Samoa in the 2017 and 2021 semi finals and decided not to bother again...

Its not even like we've taken the lazy route, we've just done everything very very poorly.

I know you aren't saying Scotland were our Tonga/Samoa Tommy.... 

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I know you aren't saying Scotland were our Tonga/Samoa Tommy.... 

We could have Tonga and Samoa on our doorstep and we probably wouldn't do anything meaningful or long term with them.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

We could have Tonga and Samoa on our doorstep and we probably wouldn't do anything meaningful or long term with them.

I mean the evidence just doesn't back that up.

[nadera78]

The introduction of SL gave us an opportunity to really develop France and Wales (London too). We didn't take it. The early 00s gave us an opportunity to really develop Lebanon and Serbia. We didn't take it. We currently have an opportunity to develop Greece. I think we all know what's going to happen there.

We're paying the price for never really taking the bull by the horns and doing what was necessary to develop the sport outside of the M62 corridor and now suddenly everyone's panicking. If this doesn't make a few people sit up and re-assess where we are as a sport then nothing will.

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Its not even like we've taken the lazy route, we've just done everything very very poorly.

That's not fair.

We have taken the lazy route *and* done everything very poorly.

[Dave T]

38 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

The introduction of SL gave us an opportunity to really develop France and Wales (London too). We didn't take it. The early 00s gave us an opportunity to really develop Lebanon and Serbia. We didn't take it. We currently have an opportunity to develop Greece. I think we all know what's going to happen there.

We're paying the price for never really taking the bull by the horns and doing what was necessary to develop the sport outside of the M62 corridor and now suddenly everyone's panicking. If this doesn't make a few people sit up and re-assess where we are as a sport then nothing will.

I'm just not sure it's realistic to expect the RFL to grow the game in Greece. 

[Sports Prophet]

8 hours ago, Damien said:

And this gets back to a point I raise time and time again. Its not a lack of games that is the issue when it comes to competitiveness, its a lack of full time, top flight, players.

I say it all the time. The number one asset any sport has is its players.

[nadera78]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm just not sure it's realistic to expect the RFL to grow the game in Greece. 

I don't expect the RFL to grow the game anywhere, I've been watching RL long enough to have given up on that. But perhaps they could try to be less of an impediment? Greece are unlikely to be allowed to take part in the RLWC qualifiers, while Scotland will be involved despite not meeting any of the criteria. I'd say the RFL has a pretty big role in that, given they are the main driving force behind the IRL (until the NRL recently took control, I guess). Whether the RFL is directly responsible or only tangentially, I think it's pretty obvious we're about to miss the boat on Greece just like we did the other places I mentioned.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I mean the evidence just doesn't back that up.

It does. We only played Tonga this year because NZ said no repeatedly. The GB Tour match against them and PNG were supposed to be against Australia...