England vs Samoa Series

[Sports Prophet]

On 10/11/2023 at 04:56, UTK said:

The International game gets far more out a full house for Tonga v Samoa in front of Tongan and Samoan fans than it does for 3x 11-15k in the North of England.

If England cared about growing the game they would've engaged with the European Championships at some point over the last 20 years and perhaps promoted some actual growth that would've helped in the precarious situation they find themselves in. Instead they're spent years inventing pretend teams to avoid playing actual tests against developing nations, England care solely about what's best for England and are reaping the rewards of that stance right now.

I was reminded by a colleague of how well the RLEF were doing, growing the sport through Europe in the late noughties. This culminated in 2009 with a revisited and revamped six nation European Cup with France, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Serbia and Italy.

The four week, two group tournament finished with all six nations playing in Wales. It was a fantastic demonstration which set the foundations for a new dawn of European RL for the next decade.

In 2010, the RLEF secured a big sponsor by way of Alitalia and now France, Wales, Scotland and Ireland had a tantalising reward for winning the tournament, a qualification into the 2011 4 Nations. Long story short, 35,000 spectators attended the series, with 15,000 in Avignon and then 7,000 and 10,000 back to back in Albi.

That event was to be repeated in 2012. Alitalia’s sponsorship agreement was for two European Cups and more sponsors were coming on board following the success of 2010. The RLEF had single handedly in about 5 years, developed European RL far greater than England, France or IRL ever had.

This is not a story which ends well. In international RL, it rarely does. Instead of the RLEF building on that early success with an even bigger and better 2012 edition, with a growing list of continental corporate partners, the RFL swooped in and tore the tournament apart by instead offering France and Wales places in a poorly concocted tri nations. 

The RFL destroyed the whole European Cup concept, with all the corporate partners walking away from RL, Alitalia didn’t even have the sponsorship honoured and for what? 7,000 fans in Hull and another 7,000 in Salford a week later for the final.

I wonder what the vitriolic NRL bashers on here feel for the RFL’s actions here.

To your point @UTK, England and the RFL are very much reaping the seeds they have sown. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Sports Prophet

[Sports Prophet]

It’s time for the RFL creative… the realities are:

1. No European opponent is going to draw a crowd in England. The only place I see worth it for England to play a Euro opponent is in France. I find 15k for England v Tonga embarrassing. PNG or Fiji, just forget about it.

2. The only international opponents proven to bring worthy crowds in England for a series is Aus and NZ. Neither are coming in 2024.

The IRL noted there was interest from the Middle East for the 2026 WC. For a potential good pay day and early entry to the Middle East market, an England v Lebanon 2 game series, or even better, England, France, Lebanon tri-nations in the Middle East could well bring some wealth into all three organisations.

[Sports Prophet]

This whole Autumn/Spring international window only serves to reinforce the priority for SL to become a beacon of RL (and rugby in general) in Europe.

The NRL has demonstrated what a commercially successful domestic club operation can deliver. The RFL can’t afford to have their financial future be dependent on the international game.

SL needs to be at a point where big cities are vying for the next place in an expanding competition, similar to Brisbane, Cairns, Port Moresby and Perth getting serious commercial and government backing for a spot at the NRL table.

The potential this decade started with saw clubs in big cities like Toronto, Toulouse and London all pushing hard for a place in SL. RL in Europe never saw so much potential since the launch of SL. Covid put the handbrakes on somewhat, but the world is recovering and SL must break out of its small northern town mentality which shackles the sport of RL in Europe from realising its full potential.

[jim_57]

Time for some out of the box thinking to get other NH nations up to a higher level?

People saying this is a wake up call which should be true but I remember the same thing being said after the 2021 World Cup cancellation and nothing really happened then.

Time to go for some ideas that can lead towards England not having to rely on Pacific opponents for a meaningful game. 

- Establish a Northern Hemisphere Championship featuring Lebanon, Jamaica and the European teams, split in to tiers. Play once a World Cup cycle. England, France, Lebanon & Ireland would make a decent tournament.

- Reducing residency rule back to 3 years for tier 2 countries.

- Salary Cap concessions for French, Welsh developed players. Maybe even a quota if that’s legal.

- Stop being scared of heritage teams. Tonga & Samoa will be playing in the Pacific Championship next year so England shouldn’t be afraid of playing a heritage team like Ireland or Lebanon.

- Revisit the Pacifique Treize idea now that all this government funding is being thrown around for Pacific programs. Not sure if the original people behind the idea are still involved but the idea had some potential and would help develop a new pathway of France eligible players.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

17 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

This whole Autumn/Spring international window only serves to reinforce the priority for SL to become a beacon of RL (and rugby in general) in Europe.

The NRL has demonstrated what a commercially successful domestic club operation can deliver. The RFL can’t afford to have their financial future be dependent on the international game.

The sporting landscape is completely different in the UK compared to Australia, with the Premier League completely dominating the media. No other sport in the UK has a domestic league that gains the media attention and captures the imagination of the wider public. The only slight exception to this is possibly The Hundred, but this is only a short-format competition (i.e. it lasts for around a month), plus the ECB has spent 10s of millions of pounds on it to try and kickstart it. Every other major sport in the UK relies on their respective international comps to capture the imagination of the public, drive interest and engagement, and provide the funding that underwrites their domestic comps. How/why can rugby league be different? And how can SL become a beacon of rugby in Europe and become relevant to the wider public who have little to no interest in towns like Wigan, St Helens etc?

24 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

SL needs to be at a point where big cities are vying for the next place in an expanding competition, similar to Brisbane, Cairns, Port Moresby and Perth getting serious commercial and government backing for a spot at the NRL table.

The potential this decade started with saw clubs in big cities like Toronto, Toulouse and London all pushing hard for a place in SL. RL in Europe never saw so much potential since the launch of SL. Covid put the handbrakes on somewhat, but the world is recovering and SL must break out of its small northern town mentality which shackles the sport of RL in Europe from realising its full potential.

But how is SL going to get to this point where big cities are vying to included?

[Sports Prophet]

4 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

The sporting landscape is completely different in the UK compared to Australia, with the Premier League completely dominating the media. No other sport in the UK has a domestic league that gains the media attention and captures the imagination of the wider public. The only slight exception to this is possibly The Hundred, but this is only a short-format competition (i.e. it lasts for around a month), plus the ECB has spent 10s of millions of pounds on it to try and kickstart it. Every other major sport in the UK relies on their respective international comps to capture the imagination of the public, drive interest and engagement, and provide the funding that underwrites their domestic comps. How/why can rugby league be different? And how can SL become a beacon of rugby in Europe and become relevant to the wider public who have little to no interest in towns like Wigan, St Helens etc?

Yeah I understand that, but it’s not like there aren’t other examples throughout the UK and the rest of Europe where club competitions are picking up respectable viewership and corporate backing. Top14 has a booming competition with no requirement of French Rugby to prop it up. Basketball has a thriving European domestic league outshining international competition, as does Ice Hockey and you may know better than me, but even Netball in UK I suspect will be more prolific at the domestic scene, over the international scene. So whilst I partly do agree with your thoughts on the international aspect, I disagree that it would be the outlier you think it is.

4 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

How can SL become a beacon of rugby in Europe and become relevant to the wider public who have little to no interest in towns like Wigan, St Helens etc?

But how is SL going to get to this point where big cities are vying to included?

We have demonstrated already big cities want a part of it. Big cities want their profile to continue to rise. As I explained, at the turn of the decade, SL was within 2 years of potentially having London, Toulouse and Toronto all in the competition. Add Perpignan and the big RL city names like Leeds, Hull, Wigan and St Helens and you have more than half the competition either coming out of a major city, or is a large town with a thriving background to pull in excess of 15k regularly. 

That kind of competition and spread can snowball and I wouldn’t be surprised to see it capture the imagination of other large cities.

The growth potential for RL in Europe is far, far greater than it is for the Pacific.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Sports Prophet

[Coggo]

This is an utter embarrassment for the English game but I am not surprised. For weeks, I kept hearing/reading players/coaches, pundits and journalists talk about the importance of people buying ticket.

They probably knew this might happen if sales were poor.

I must say I struggle with the idea that the RFL should’ve hired big stadia - and potentially lost (more) money - for Tonga.

Maybe this is a lack of imagination on my part but Tonga is not, and probably never will, be a big stadium type draw. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

9 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I have a nagging feeling that they'll end up doing a 3-match roses series

I'd honestly go to at least one of those...maybe two 

Stick none heartland players in one embodiment or the other ......play at least one game in York!

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

Home countries -Heritage wise it should be ok to really push for a decent set of teams ....if they are playing full tests with England surely every one available would be up for it 

Ireland particularly should have a gazillion eligible SL players surely? 

[gingerjon]

7 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I wonder what the vitriolic NRL bashers on here feel for the RFL’s actions here.

I dunno, maybe read some other poster's opinions on the RFL's actions?

[Barley Mow]

9 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I have a nagging feeling that they'll end up doing a 3-match roses series

If bringing the NRL players back for it adds interest, it might be worthwhile.

Maybe I'm in a small minority, but I'd pay to watch this:

Pryce, Young, King, Newman, Johnstone, Lewis, Abdull, Warmsley, Clark, Burgess, McMeeken (Cas connection), Bateman, Radley (father a Yorkshireman)

Versus

Welsby, Makinson, Farnworth, Watkins, Marshall, Williams, Smith, Hill, Walker, Lees, Currie, Farrell, Knowles.

I'd say that's more attractive and less likely to lose money than flying Lebanon in from Australia.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Dave T]

8 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I was reminded by a colleague of how well the RLEF were doing, growing the sport through Europe in the late noughties. This culminated in 2009 with a revisited and revamped six nation European Cup with France, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Serbia and Italy.

The four week, two group tournament finished with all six nations playing in Wales. It was a fantastic demonstration which set the foundations for a new dawn of European RL for the next decade.

In 2010, the RLEF secured a big sponsor by way of Alitalia and now France, Wales, Scotland and Ireland had a tantalising reward for winning the tournament, a qualification into the 2011 4 Nations. Long story short, 35,000 spectators attended the series, with 15,000 in Avignon and then 7,000 and 10,000 back to back in Albi.

That event was to be repeated in 2012. Alitalia’s sponsorship agreement was for two European Cups and more sponsors were coming on board following the success of 2010. The RLEF had single handedly in about 5 years, developed European RL far greater than England, France or IRL ever had.

This is not a story which ends well. In international RL, it rarely does. Instead of the RLEF building on that early success with an even bigger and better 2012 edition, with a growing list of continental corporate partners, the RFL swooped in and tore the tournament apart by instead offering France and Wales places in a poorly concocted tri nations. 

The RFL destroyed the whole European Cup concept, with all the corporate partners walking away from RL, Alitalia didn’t even have the sponsorship honoured and for what? 7,000 fans in Hull and another 7,000 in Salford a week later for the final.

I wonder what the vitriolic NRL bashers on here feel for the RFL’s actions here.

To your point @UTK, England and the RFL are very much reaping the seeds they have sown. 

This isn't actually the what happened though, although I agree with parts of your post. 

The Euro Cup was (like most RL things) sporadic. The format in 2009 and 2010 may have been OK (6 games, Home Nations plus France), but the likes of Italy, Lebanon, Russia had already been pushed aside, formats changed, games reduced, increased etc. It was all over the place. 

It actually wasn't staged in 2011, the year prior to this tri nations you refer to that apparently cancelled it. Wales had qualified for the 4N, which was a positive development imo. France played Ireland and Scotland. 

In 2012 it was to be staged between Italy, Scotland, England Knights and Ireland. Italy had to pull out, which is likely to be more to do with Alitalia pulling out. 

The tournament has been held once since. 

So, I agree it has the potential to be a nice tournament, to suggest it crashed because of that 2012 Tri Nations is way off. 

But, I would add, it's really disappointing that this hasn't been staged since 2018. Surely this is exactly what the IRL should be funding. 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Dave T

[The Masked Poster]

35 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This isn't actually the what happened though, although I agree with parts of your post. 

The Euro Cup was (like most RL things) sporadic. The format in 2009 and 2010 may have been OK (6 games, Home Nations plus France), but the likes of Italy, Lebanon, Russia had already been pushed aside, formats changed, games reduced, increased etc. It was all over the place. 

It actually wasn't staged in 2011, the year prior to this tri nations you refer to that apparently cancelled it. Wales had qualified for the 4N, which was a positive development imo. France played Ireland and Scotland. 

In 2012 it was to be staged between Italy, Scotland, England Knights and Ireland. Italy had to pull out, which is likely to be more to do with Alitalia pulling out. 

The tournament has been held once since. 

So, I agree it has the potential to be a nice tournament, to suggest it crashed because of that 2012 Tri Nations is way off. 

But, I would add, it's really disappointing that this hasn't been staged since 2018. Surely this is exactly what the IRL should be funding. 

 

Pretty sure the 2012 tournament was the full England side and not the Knights? Hence the big score lines 

Edited November 11, 2023 by The Masked Poster

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Pretty sure the 2012 tournament was the full England side and not the Knights? Hence the big score lines 

Knights.

England played Wales and France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Autumn_International_Series

England Knights played Scotland and Ireland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_European_Cup_(rugby_league)

[The Masked Poster]

11 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Knights.

England played Wales and France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Autumn_International_Series

England Knights played Scotland and Ireland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_European_Cup_(rugby_league)

Thanks, I misread the post and thought he was referring to the International series. 
 

Edit: reading the links it seems like halcyon days, with games involving Ireland and Scotland taking place at all.

Edited November 11, 2023 by The Masked Poster

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Pretty sure the 2012 tournament was the full England side and not the Knights? Hence the big score lines 

The 2012 tri nations is the one that SP claims killed the Euro Cup, in reality it ended the year before. The 2012 version was bigger than the 2011 one. 

[Dave T]

40 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Thanks, I misread the post and thought he was referring to the International series. 
 

Edit: reading the links it seems like halcyon days, with games involving Ireland and Scotland taking place at all.

The Euro Cup has been interesting, I've watched a few Scotland games live and always enjoyed them. 

For me, this is why the IRL needed funding via World Cups and a Federation tournament. It then allows for tier 2 development and tournaments, and leave the Tier 1 nations free to stage their own self-funding tournaments/tours in other years. 

The plan was pretty much exactly what was needed. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Dave T

[GeordieSaint]

Pathways pathways pathways. We need to boost the amount of Welsh and French kids in the top systems. Poach a few good Welsh lads from RU. I see the new SL system as an opportunity to do that. Get them in the system and develop them. Long term strategy rather than quick fixes. And get the national teams playing regularly. Just get it done. Otherwise England will be left in the abyss as the NRL leadership don’t care. 

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Pathways pathways pathways. We need to boost the amount of Welsh and French kids in the top systems. Poach a few good Welsh lads from RU. I see the new SL system as an opportunity to do that. Get them in the system and develop them. Long term strategy rather than quick fixes. And get the national teams playing regularly. Just get it done. Otherwise England will be left in the abyss as the NRL leadership don’t care. 

Maybe I'm just pessimistic at the moment, but I just don't see the potential here. We've had presence in Wales for years, but not much happens, and I'm not sure the new plan will address this I. E. Investing more time and money. 

France (and London) has more, and are no brainers, but I'm not sure where the serious investment is coming. The Future for these nations under an NRL run IRL looks bleak. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Dave T

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Maybe I'm just pessimistic at the moment, but I just don't see the potential here. We've had presence in Wales for years, but not much happens, and I'm not sure the new plan will address this I. E. Investing more time and money. 

France (and London) has more, and are no brainiers, but I'm not sure where the serious investment is coming. The Future for these nations under an NRL run IRL looks bleak. 

I wonder if the RFL had admitted Cardiff instead of Gateshead back in 1999 whether we'd be in a different position now or whether that club would have folded as well. We saw in a very short space of time the number of Welsh players that the Crusaders brought through. IMO it really should have been a priority to support a Welsh club in SL.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I wonder if the RFL had admitted Cardiff instead of Gateshead back in 1999 whether we'd be in a different position now or whether that club would have folded as well. We saw in a very short space of time the number of Welsh players that the Crusaders brought through. IMO it really should have been a priority to support a Welsh club in SL.

Who knows. I wonder whether South Wales could ever sustain a 10k+ SL club (which should always be the aspiration when we talk about new clubs). They don't do brilliant even at Union at club level. 

The reduction in Welsh Union in players in RL is one of the saddest changes in my time time watching RL. Some of my favourite ever players came from that route. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The reduction in Welsh Union in players in RL is one of the saddest changes in my time time watching RL. Some of my favourite ever players came from that route. 

Couldn't agree more. I was lucky that Jonathan Davies had just switched to league when I found the sport, as well as loads of his peers. It's always staggering whenever I read about hall-of-famers from different clubs, and discover how many of them were Welsh. Our game would have been far poorer without the Welsh converts over the past 120+ years. I always thought Shane Williams would have made a fantastic league player and would have loved to have seen him in action.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Couldn't agree more. I was lucky that Jonathan Davies had just switched to league when I found the sport, as well as loads of his peers. It's always staggering whenever I read about hall-of-famers from different clubs, and discover how many of them were Welsh. Our game would have been far poorer without the Welsh converts over the past 120+ years. I always thought Shane Williams would have made a fantastic league player and would have loved to have seen him in action.

In that period we were luck at Warrington to see the likes of Davies, Bateman, Ellis, Phillips - all fan favourites. 

I remember the links were so strong that as part of the Wolfpack junior supporters club we even went down on a coach to watch them play the Aussies in 1994 (IIRC) in Cardiff. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Dave T

[Damien]

36 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Pathways pathways pathways. We need to boost the amount of Welsh and French kids in the top systems. Poach a few good Welsh lads from RU. I see the new SL system as an opportunity to do that. Get them in the system and develop them. Long term strategy rather than quick fixes. And get the national teams playing regularly. Just get it done. Otherwise England will be left in the abyss as the NRL leadership don’t care. 

We need more Welsh and French clubs at the top, full time professional level. There will never be enough Welsh and French elite players without that. Pathways are fine but they will only go so far and there are only so many playing spots available.

[Coggo]

Maybe England should stop picking the best English players for England so they can play for other nations? Happens Down Under.