England vs Samoa Series

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

The 2012 tri nations is the one that SP claims killed the Euro Cup, in reality it ended the year before. The 2012 version was bigger than the 2011 one. 

I’m not mistaken, the 2012 European Cup was reduced to an England Knights, Scotland and Ireland event, when it was originally planned as a repeat of the 2010 event. 

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

The Euro Cup was (like most RL things) sporadic. The format in 2009 and 2010 may have been OK (6 games, Home Nations plus France), but the likes of Italy, Lebanon, Russia had already been pushed aside, formats changed, games reduced, increased etc. It was all over the place. 

It actually wasn't staged in 2011, the year prior to this tri nations you refer to that apparently cancelled it. Wales had qualified for the 4N, which was a positive development imo. France played Ireland and Scotland. 

In 2012 it was to be staged between Italy, Scotland, England Knights and Ireland. Italy had to pull out, which is likely to be more to do with Alitalia pulling out. 

So, I agree it has the potential to be a nice tournament, to suggest it crashed because of that 2012 Tri Nations is way off. 

 

It wasn’t all over the place at all. RLEF European international series were starting to get consistency in the late noughties.

I know the Euro Cup wasn’t hosted in 2011 and I know Wales qualified for 2011 4 Nations because they won 2010 European Cup. It was a positive development and something I don’t dispute. It’s for that exact reason, the next edition of the Alitalia European Cup was to be in 2012.

That 2012 European Cup was scuppered to a pathetic affair including just England Knights, Ireland and Scotland, because of the RFL swooping in to offer France and Wales to play in what was dubbed the Autumn International Series. That hastily organised affair killed the progress of the European Cup.

[GeordieSaint]

12 minutes ago, Damien said:

We need more Welsh and French clubs at the top, full time professional level. There will never be enough Welsh and French elite players without that. Pathways are fine but they will only go so far and there are only so many playing spots available.

Oh I agree. But you need to generate interest to attract investment. That’s why a bit of poaching of high players like we used to do could help. But it’s definitely a long term goal to build the sport. Both in Wales and France. We’ve got to do something rather than relying (and focussing) on Australia.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

In that period we were luck at Warrington to see the likes of Davies, Bateman, Ellis, Phillips - all fan favourites. 

I remember the links were so strong that as part of the Wolfpack junior supporters club we even went down on a coach to watch them play the Aussies in 1994 (IIRC) in Cardiff. 

There's a 1995 World Cup review video somewhere on YouTube or Facebook, and the panel were all adamant that South Wales was primed for top club and the timing would never be better. Alas, it didn't happen until the Crusaders 15 or so years later, but rather than a team packed full of famous Welsh rugby stars, it had a load of Aussies which didn't capture the public's imagination, and was based in the less inspiring location of Bridgend as opposed to Cardiff Arms Park.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

17 minutes ago, Damien said:

We need more Welsh and French clubs at the top, full time professional level. There will never be enough Welsh and French elite players without that. Pathways are fine but they will only go so far and there are only so many playing spots available.

Plus any Welsh lads coming through the pathway of an English SL club will qualify for England through residency, so therefore any superstar players will be able to align themselves to England if Wales never play any decent fixtures.

[GeordieSaint]

52 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Maybe I'm just pessimistic at the moment, but I just don't see the potential here. We've had presence in Wales for years, but not much happens, and I'm not sure the new plan will address this I. E. Investing more time and money. 

France (and London) has more, and are no brainers, but I'm not sure where the serious investment is coming. The Future for these nations under an NRL run IRL looks bleak. 

Genuinely understand your point Dave. You need to generate investment through interest. You need to make it attractive. And obviously that is easier said than done. There are a few short term things that can be done to start that process. A few long term options as well. But there needs to be a will. Pretty certain I saw someone in the French game state SL clubs need to take more of a chance on French youth bringing them over early; a bit like Fages, as the talent is there. 

[Dave T]

16 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I’m not mistaken, the 2012 European Cup was reduced to an England Knights, Scotland and Ireland event, when it was originally planned as a repeat of the 2010 event. 

It wasn’t all over the place at all. RLEF European international series were starting to get consistency in the late noughties.

I know the Euro Cup wasn’t hosted in 2011 and I know Wales qualified for 2011 4 Nations because they won 2010 European Cup. It was a positive development and something I don’t dispute. It’s for that exact reason, the next edition of the Alitalia European Cup was to be in 2012.

That 2012 European Cup was scuppered to a pathetic affair including just England Knights, Ireland and Scotland, because of the RFL swooping in to offer France and Wales to play in what was dubbed the Autumn International Series. That hastily organised affair killed the progress of the European Cup.

I'm going off only memory and Wiki, but the 2012 version was announced as Knights, Ireland, Scotland and Italy, before Italy pulled out.

Lets look at the history though of that tournament:

2003 - 6 teams (Sco, Ire, Fra, Wal, Russia and England who despite not being called it were effectively the B team as GB played at that time). 

2004 - same as above

2005 - as above, Georgia replaced England. 

2006-2008 - no tournaments

2009 - 6 teams (Wal, Ire, Serbia, Ita, Sco, Leb) 

2010 - 4 teams (Wales, Sco, Ire, Fra) - you'll notice this is 2 years before the event you refer to and it has changed drastically. 

2011 - No tournament. 

2012 - 3 teams, Eng K, Ire, Sco - Italy were scheduled but withdrew. 

So whilst there was far more activity than there is now, it's wrong to make out it was a consistent, established tournament that was undermined. The use of the word sporadic was absolutely accurate. 

Where the RFL can be criticised (and this is from memory) is that we pulled funding during this period, IIRC we pushed the RLEF route of self-governance, but I do think it harmed development in places like Scotland that were benefiting from funding, internationals and even events like the Cup final, on the road games and Magic Weekend. I'll absolutely be critical around that. 

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Genuinely understand your point Dave. You need to generate investment through interest. You need to make it attractive. And obviously that is easier said than done. There are a few short term things that can be done to start that process. A few long term options as well. But there needs to be a will. Pretty certain I saw someone in the French game state SL clubs need to take more of a chance on French youth bringing them over early; a bit like Fages, as the talent is there. 

Aye, and I agree with the principle, I think like @Damien, there has to be an increase at top level opportunities, and that will cost millions without private investment. 

[Sports Prophet]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm going off only memory and Wiki, but the 2012 version was announced as Knights, Ireland, Scotland and Italy, before Italy pulled out.

Lets look at the history though of that tournament:

2003 - 6 teams (Sco, Ire, Fra, Wal, Russia and England who despite not being called it were effectively the B team as GB played at that time). 

2004 - same as above

2005 - as above, Georgia replaced England. 

2006-2008 - no tournaments

2009 - 6 teams (Wal, Ire, Serbia, Ita, Sco, Leb) 

2010 - 4 teams (Wales, Sco, Ire, Fra) - you'll notice this is 2 years before the event you refer to and it has changed drastically. 

2011 - No tournament. 

2012 - 3 teams, Eng K, Ire, Sco - Italy were scheduled but withdrew. 

So whilst there was far more activity than there is now, it's wrong to make out it was a consistent, established tournament that was undermined. The use of the word sporadic was absolutely accurate. 

Where the RFL can be criticised (and this is from memory) is that we pulled funding during this period, IIRC we pushed the RLEF route of self-governance, but I do think it harmed development in places like Scotland that were benefiting from funding, internationals and even events like the Cup final, on the road games and Magic Weekend. I'll absolutely be critical around that. 

whilst I don’t argue with what you have written, you are neglecting the lower tier European activity underneath the Euro Cup which took us to 2009. That 2009 event was off the back of some great Bowl and Plate style events. That Euro Cup was the culmination of a lot of work under the guidance of Kevin Rudd. 

The only reason why 2012 was announced as Knights, Scotland and Ireland is exactly because the RFL chose to organise a typically poorly executed and underwhelming event which included two nations which were already penned in for the 2012 European Cup.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Sports Prophet

[Dave T]

28 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

There's a 1995 World Cup review video somewhere on YouTube or Facebook, and the panel were all adamant that South Wales was primed for top club and the timing would never be better. Alas, it didn't happen until the Crusaders 15 or so years later, but rather than a team packed full of famous Welsh rugby stars, it had a load of Aussies which didn't capture the public's imagination, and was based in the less inspiring location of Bridgend as opposed to Cardiff Arms Park.

I agree. We handed Wales back to RU by not having a pro team option for players at the start of SL. 

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

whilst I don’t argue with what you have written, you are neglecting the lower tier European activity underneath the Euro Cup which took us to 2009. That 2009 event was off the back of some great Bowl and Plate style events. That Euro Cup was the culmination of a lot of work under the guidance of Kevin Rudd. 

The only reason why 2012 was announced as Knights, Scotland and Ireland is exactly because the RFL chose to organise a typically poorly organised and underwhelming event which included two nations which were already penned in for the 2012 European Cup.

Aye, my post wasn't a criticism of the early years, quite the opposite, the level of activity was really positive. 

But in 2010 many of those teams had fallen by the wayside, there was no tournament in 2011, and this was in advance of that 2012 Tri Nations you refer to. 

The 2009 tournament ran without France, and let's not make out Wales are a big gun. England Knights was a return to the approach of a few years back when the RFL sent a 2nd team to the Euro Cup. I understand why people don't like that, but had Italy not pulled out it would have been a 4 team tournament like some others. And had Russia, Georgia, Lebanon etc not gone by the wayside it would have been a 6 team tournament. 

Id like to see the RFL support this comp more, but I don't agree with your narrative of its demise. Surely IRL funding should be covering costs to run this for a minimum of 4 teams? 

[redjonn]

53 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Genuinely understand your point Dave. You need to generate investment through interest. You need to make it attractive. And obviously that is easier said than done. There are a few short term things that can be done to start that process. A few long term options as well. But there needs to be a will. Pretty certain I saw someone in the French game state SL clubs need to take more of a chance on French youth bringing them over early; a bit like Fages, as the talent is there. 

key to taking a chance on French youth and French players in general is to incentive the SL clubs. That is to adjust salary cap, i.e. French players are counted as zero towards the Cap or something similar, of course limit the number counting as zero/minimal amount.

[Sports Prophet]

59 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Aye, my post wasn't a criticism of the early years, quite the opposite, the level of activity was really positive. 

But in 2010 many of those teams had fallen by the wayside, there was no tournament in 2011, and this was in advance of that 2012 Tri Nations you refer to. 

The 2009 tournament ran without France, and let's not make out Wales are a big gun. England Knights was a return to the approach of a few years back when the RFL sent a 2nd team to the Euro Cup. I understand why people don't like that, but had Italy not pulled out it would have been a 4 team tournament like some others. And had Russia, Georgia, Lebanon etc not gone by the wayside it would have been a 6 team tournament. 

Id like to see the RFL support this comp more, but I don't agree with your narrative of its demise. Surely IRL funding should be covering costs to run this for a minimum of 4 teams? 

The progress through the late 2000s and then the 2010 European Cup was above the 2010 Euro Shield featuring East and West groups including Russia, Ukraine and Latvia in one and Serbia, Czech and Germany in the other.

This programme from 2008 to 2010 had all been part of RLEF plans since 2007 and the continuation of this plan was a repeat of the 2012 European Cup, with lower tiers below on a promo and relegation basis.

The reason why 2011 didn’t feature any meaningful activity is because below the 4 Nations, there were World Cup Qualifiers taking place, featuring Italy, Lebanon, Russia and Serbia. So to say the likes of Lebanon and Russia had fallen off is not accurate at all.

It is true the RFLs underwhelming 2012 Autumn Series depleted the European Cup of its two strongest nations the year before the WC and the momentum was all in one swoop was dead.

Mine was a first hand experience in all of these events.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Sports Prophet

[Dave T]

42 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

The progress through the late 2000s and then the 2010 European Cup was above the 2010 Euro Shield featuring East and West groups including Russia, Ukraine and Latvia in one and Serbia, Czech and Germany in the other.

This programme from 2008 to 2010 had all been part of RLEF plans since 2007 and the continuation of this plan was a repeat of the 2012 European Cup, with lower tiers below on a promo and relegation basis.

The reason why 2011 didn’t feature any meaningful activity is because below the 4 Nations, there were World Cup Qualifiers taking place, featuring Italy, Lebanon, Russia and Serbia. So to say the likes of Lebanon and Russia had fallen off is not accurate at all.

It is true the RFLs underwhelming 2012 Autumn Series depleted the European Cup of its two strongest nations the year before the WC and the momentum was all in one swoop was dead.

Mine was a first hand experience in all of these events.

 

I get what you are saying, but I will point out that there had been many years during this period that the tournament wasn't staged (as these teams played other games as you point out), so why is this one year being deemed so important as to kill off this comp, particularly as Ireland, Scotland, Wales and France all played that winter? These teams were just playing other games, it was quite normal during the period. 

Why wasn't this played in 2014-16?

Like I say, it was sporadic. WC Qualifiers should have been based on games like this tbh. 

Edit: to add, I had a brilliant day out at the Scotland v Ireland match in Edinburgh in 2012. It was a long day that was very messy and ended up with us watching the spaceman jumping to earth live on tv in a pub with a band playing. We still refer to that day quite often with friends. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Dave T

[Barley Mow]

Maybe I've just been really slow on this, but it has just struck me: The CBA that was agreed with the NRL players this year is likely to put an end to tours by SH nations to the UK long term.

NZ, Tonga, Samoa players playing for their countries in NRL organised events now get payment from NRL for doing so (above what they likely got from their governing bodies before).

That payment will almost certainly be more than RFL or their governing bodies can pay them for touring here.

It will be a 'no brainer' from a financial point of view (if nothing else) for Samoa to stay there next year. This will apply to other countries moving forward as well.

[Damien]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

I agree. We handed Wales back to RU by not having a pro team option for players at the start of SL. 

And it was in the plan. As was 2 French teams. If that had been implemented, and obviously supported financially and backed properly, our conversations now may have been drastically different.

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Maybe I've just been really slow on this, but it has just struck me: The CBA that was agreed with the NRL players this year is likely to put an end to tours by SH nations to the UK long term.

NZ, Tonga, Samoa players playing for their countries in NRL organised events now get payment from NRL for doing so (above what they likely got from their governing bodies before).

That payment will almost certainly be more than RFL or their governing bodies can pay them for touring here.

It will be a 'no brainer' from a financial point of view (if nothing else) for Samoa to stay there next year. This will apply to other countries moving forward as well.

The RLPA, who lets not forget are funded by the NRL, are very compliant in restricting the international game.

[StandOffHalf]

11 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

The progress through the late 2000s and then the 2010 European Cup was above the 2010 Euro Shield featuring East and West groups including Russia, Ukraine and Latvia in one and Serbia, Czech and Germany in the other.

This programme from 2008 to 2010 had all been part of RLEF plans since 2007 and the continuation of this plan was a repeat of the 2012 European Cup, with lower tiers below on a promo and relegation basis.

The reason why 2011 didn’t feature any meaningful activity is because below the 4 Nations, there were World Cup Qualifiers taking place, featuring Italy, Lebanon, Russia and Serbia. So to say the likes of Lebanon and Russia had fallen off is not accurate at all.

It is true the RFLs underwhelming 2012 Autumn Series depleted the European Cup of its two strongest nations the year before the WC and the momentum was all in one swoop was dead.

Mine was a first hand experience in all of these events.

 

This is how I felt about things as well.

I remember my disappointment at that Eng-Wales-Fra series.

[Sports Prophet]

12 hours ago, Dave T said:

I get what you are saying, but I will point out that there had been many years during this period that the tournament wasn't staged (as these teams played other games as you point out), so why is this one year being deemed so important as to kill off this comp, particularly as Ireland, Scotland, Wales and France all played that winter? These teams were just playing other games, it was quite normal during the period. 

Why wasn't this played in 2014-16?

Like I say, it was sporadic. WC Qualifiers should have been based on games like this tbh. 

Edit: to add, I had a brilliant day out at the Scotland v Ireland match in Edinburgh in 2012. It was a long day that was very messy and ended up with us watching the spaceman jumping to earth live on tv in a pub with a band playing. We still refer to that day quite often with friends. 

My original post on the subject was mostly a demonstration of the RFLs lack of care for the nurture of a European structure when it was going through its most successful period.

Instead of allowing the tournament to continue with its development into a consistent bi-annual event with growing corporate supporters, the RFL simply cherry picked the two best nations from that event to serve their own needs. The tournament lost a lot of credibility.

The RFL demonstrated themselves just as selfish as the NRL, but with far less vision and aptitude for execution to make their selfish actions either valuable or sustainable.

[Sports Prophet]

In any case, a two game series against Lebanon in the rich Middle East or tri nations with France included in the same location is something I would be proposing for 2024 to the various sports authorities of the Persian Gulf.

[Jack GB]

5 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

In any case, a two game series against Lebanon in the rich Middle East or tri nations with France included in the same location is something I would be proposing for 2024 to the various sports authorities of the Persian Gulf.

Im not sure Rugby is on the radar for the Middle East to be honest though - The UAE has a lot of Union teams (and last i heard is League is still "illegal") but not really any decent stadiums, Saudi i would suspect are focusing on Football, Qatar have the stadia but not sure it's on their radar too... and Lebanon is a no go as it's pretty much at war. 

Don't get me wrong i would love to see it happen but think it's a pipe dream really...

[Sports Prophet]

2 hours ago, Jack GB said:

Im not sure Rugby is on the radar for the Middle East to be honest though - The UAE has a lot of Union teams (and last i heard is League is still "illegal") but not really any decent stadiums, Saudi i would suspect are focusing on Football, Qatar have the stadia but not sure it's on their radar too... and Lebanon is a no go as it's pretty much at war. 

Don't get me wrong i would love to see it happen but think it's a pipe dream really...

We were told by the IRL there was Middle East interest for the 2026 WC.

[iffleyox]

25 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

We were told by the IRL there was Middle East interest for the 2026 WC.

I’m sure there is - various countries are all-in on hosting massive sporting and corporate jamborees for the prestige, regional one-upmanship and reputational er, polishing…

With the best will in the world wanting to host the RL World Cup and wanting to host a couple of random England - Lebanon ‘tests’ aren’t quite apples and apples…

[crashmon]

28 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

We were told by the IRL there was Middle East interest for the 2026 WC.

Yea but that might have been eying the NRL market...  Remember we are small players in the RL world.  NRL is where the money is.

[iffleyox]

3 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

I’m sure there is - various countries are all-in on hosting massive sporting and corporate jamborees for the prestige, regional one-upmanship and reputational er, polishing…

With the best will in the world wanting to host the RL World Cup and wanting to host a couple of random England - Lebanon ‘tests’ aren’t quite apples and apples…

Also, Lebanon is at best geopolitically complicated - genuine question I’ve got is how much other countries round that way even see Lebanon as a country that they want to help out. England probably wouldn’t be going to Beirut, I could potentially see it being held in Greece I suppose.

[Barley Mow]

11 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

Also, Lebanon is at best geopolitically complicated - genuine question I’ve got is how much other countries round that way even see Lebanon as a country that they want to help out. England probably wouldn’t be going to Beirut, I could potentially see it being held in Greece I suppose.

The advantage of one of the Gulf States or the Saudis is that they would be more likely to fund things (stadium, accommodation, state airlines providing flights for both teams), whereas that wouldn't happen with somewhere like Greece.

How would the RFL fund flights to Greece (from Australia in the case of the Lebanese), grounds and accommodation if a main income stream - ticket sales - would be minimal because of the games being played somewhere with little interest?

I think hosting Lebanon in the UK would be a financial risk (costs similar to the Tonga tour but with lower crowds), but somewhere like Greece would be less successful.

I think a Gulf State series is unlikely, but more likely than a country that doesn't fund sporting events to polish reputations.