England vs Samoa Series

[Damien]

3 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said:

There is a separate point to consider here amongst the bickering. If heartland fans do only represent 30% of a London crowd, that actual travelling figure could still be as good as, if not higher, than the total gate at a heartland venue if it’s anything similar to the Tonga crowds.

It should be noted that the 30% figure is not necessarily just people from the heartlands either.

[John bird]

How awesome is it going to be to see Sualauvi fa’alogo playing on English soil!!

hope he stays fit and doesn’t get pulled for any end of season “rest.”

[gingerjon]

37 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Indeed. Part of the crowd is made up of travelling fans - it's an undeniable fact despite GJ denying it

I'm not sure why we need to be defensive about this point, it's pretty much universally agreed here that London crowds are the best of internationals, and that is clearly because we tap into a market we don't by staging games at Warrington and St Helens. 

But to claim a Northern voice is never heard is just silly. Anyone who travels down (many of the Northerners on here have done so) will have seen plenty of fans on trains, at service stations, in the hotels, and around the ground. 

London internationals are a draw for existing RL fans and Southern markets. There is nothing controversial in that. 

So, we're at 60-70% of international crowds in the south being southerners.

I make it that we're now at 12 consecutive home internationals - outside World Cups - over 8 years being played along the M62. The 'existing market' in the south is going to be dead and gone whilst the RFL keep returning internationals to the over saturated heartlands.

It's obviously a complete and total failure. But defended time and again by folk considering themselves pragmatists as the only realistic option despite it leading to further contraction, low crowds, fewer sponsors, less visibility, and a loss of income. 

But do keep arguing a point that no one has really made about there being no northern voices at games in London.

 

[Dave T]

17 hours ago, Dave T said:

 but we also shouldn't ignore that part of the large crowds for internationals in London are travelling fans too. 

 

 

16 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Yeah, this is not really true, 

GJ, this is you denying that part of the crowd are travelling fans. I have to assume you read my post as saying a large part of the crowd are travelling fans. 

You are now having a bit of an argument around other things nobody has claimed. 

In fact your arguing with someone whose first post on this discussion the other day was calling for a game in London, and someone who would attend a London game over any Northern game any time. 

[gingerjon]

Just now, Dave T said:

 

I have to assume you read my post as saying a large part of the crowd are travelling fans. 

 

It seemed an odd point to make otherwise.

But, regardless, eight years, 12+ M62 games later ... we're now down to two end of season internationals and a mid season game that's the undercard to a second tier club game.

Enjoy your sport.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It seemed an odd point to make otherwise.

But, regardless, eight years, 12+ M62 games later ... we're now down to two end of season internationals and a mid season game that's the undercard to a second tier club game.

Enjoy your sport.

My unscientific view is that we get c10-25k travelling fans for internationals in London, and how well we engage with the local market depends on whether we get 35k or 67k.

But again, I'm finding your posts unnecessarily aggressive and weird when discussing with somebody who has called for one of the games to be played in London. So I'll leave you to it. 

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It seemed an odd point to make otherwise.

Apologies, missed this part on my last post - the relevance of me mentioning travelling fans is because I think it is false to expect that a 3rd game in London doesn't affect attendance in the North. But this is to support my point about 2 tests rather than no game in London. 

I know for example if one is in London, that's where I'm going, not Wigan. 

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

My unscientific view is that we get c10-25k travelling fans for internationals in London, and how well we engage with the local market depends on whether we get 35k or 67k.

But again, I'm finding your posts unnecessarily aggressive and weird when discussing with somebody who has called for one of the games to be played in London. So I'll leave you to it. 

Fundamentally, it’s because the game is close to moribund down here now. And that gets me quite grumpy.

It was all avoidable. The opportunities were there. And, instead, we have a vanishing sport whose thought leaders remain utterly obsessed with what happens for the bottom two places of the top division, the top two places of the one below, and very little else.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Apologies, missed this part on my last post - the relevance of me mentioning travelling fans is because I think it is false to expect that a 3rd game in London doesn't affect attendance in the North. But this is to support my point about 2 tests rather than no game in London. 

I know for example if one is in London, that's where I'm going, not Wigan. 

I think it can create a bounce in that, if the first game is good, then the ones in the place that gets RL all the time and has more 'natural' supporters, may sell themselves more easily, and you may find yourself going to that game in Wigan, possibly with some people who didn't make it to London.

[Hopie]

Some weird arguments about the accents you hear at games? No thanks.

 

Anyway, I was looking at rugby league project and given how rarely England have played Samoa, it could very well be the best average attendance for a rugby league fixture in history. Four games, three 40k+ attendances.

[ATLANTISMAN]

12 hours ago, Click said:

Yeah, that's kind of the point we're making. RL fans in London and the South are completely neglected due to the RFL being incompetent at staging RL internationals in this country.

I remember being on a train from London to Leeds 3rd test v Austalia and the entire train was booked out by rugby league fans traveling north.

[Archie Gordon]

6 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

I remember being on a train from London to Leeds 3rd test v Austalia and the entire train was booked out by rugby league fans traveling north.

It's so sad that the game has completely given up on its large supporter base in and around London. Also pathetic.

[The British Lion]

I honestly think im at the point now where Ive lost most all hope for RL ever having a decent International programme. This whole debacle is an absolute shambles and disgrace. Shame on you RFL, NRL and the toothless International board. 

[Gomersall]

2 hours ago, The British Lion said:

I honestly think im at the point now where Ive lost most all hope for RL ever having a decent International programme. This whole debacle is an absolute shambles and disgrace. Shame on you RFL, NRL and the toothless International board. 

To be fair the IRL’s hands are tied. I don’t know what you expect them to do/have done.

[Damien]

34 minutes ago, Gomersall said:

To be fair the IRL’s hands are tied. I don’t know what you expect them to do/have done.

Those is the point I always make too. They have no money, zero power and are really limited in what they can do.

[Click]

28 minutes ago, Damien said:

Those is the point I always make too. They have no money, zero power and are really limited in what they can do.

The only time I ever see the IRL mentioned, it is in relation to another meeting/conference they are holding in Singapore. 

[17 stone giant]

5 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

It's so sad that the game has completely given up on its large supporter base in and around London. Also pathetic.

If that's true, what is the reason for it?

Amongst all the praise for the London and southern fan base, the only explanation I'm seeing for why the RFL don't play many games in London, is incompetence.

I think it's legitimate to ask whether it really is as simple as that. After all, we're talking about a period of many years, and there will have been personnel changes at the RFL during that time. Can it really be the case that everyone the RFL appoint is incompetent when it comes to arranging England fixtures?

Maybe totalrl can use its connections and actually ask someone at the RFL why England have only played 5 or so times in London since 2011. It would be nice to hear from the horses mouth, so to speak.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, 17 stone giant said:

If that's true, what is the reason for it?

Amongst all the praise for the London and southern fan base, the only explanation I'm seeing for why the RFL don't play many games in London, is incompetence.

I think it's legitimate to ask whether it really is as simple as that. After all, we're talking about a period of many years, and there will have been personnel changes at the RFL during that time. Can it really be the case that everyone the RFL appoint is incompetent when it comes to arranging England fixtures?

Maybe totalrl can use its connections and actually ask someone at the RFL why England have only played 5 or so times in London since 2011. It would be nice to hear from the horses mouth, so to speak.

The above isn't quite true. We haven't really had too many changes in personnel, we've had a lot of the same chums running the game changing who has the hot seat. 

The number of games in London is a bit of red herring. Here is a list of the England series held here in the UK and what her we had a game in London as part of them:

2023 - no

2022 - yes

2020 - yes (cancelled) 

2018 - no

2016 - yes

2015 - yes

2013 - yes

2012 - no

2011 - yes

2009 - no

2007 - no

2005 - yes

2004 - no

2003 - no

2002 - no

2001 - no

So when people say things like we've only played 5 times in London since 2011, that is out of 8 series. The 7 before that had only 1. 

So what people are presenting as a negative is a positive. We had started to grow theses events in London - the worry is that we've now abandoned that progress. 

[JT RL]

Random internationals, dropped into random grounds at random dates, with random history & setting, will get random outcomes (low, sporadic crowds, and will eventually fall by the way side …

[17 stone giant]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The above isn't quite true. We haven't really had too many changes in personnel, we've had a lot of the same chums running the game changing who has the hot seat. 

The number of games in London is a bit of red herring. Here is a list of the England series held here in the UK and what her we had a game in London as part of them:

2023 - no

2022 - yes

2020 - yes (cancelled) 

2018 - no

2016 - yes

2015 - yes

2013 - yes

2012 - no

2011 - yes

2009 - no

2007 - no

2005 - yes

2004 - no

2003 - no

2002 - no

2001 - no

So when people say things like we've only played 5 times in London since 2011, that is out of 8 series. The 7 before that had only 1. 

So what people are presenting as a negative is a positive. We had started to grow theses events in London - the worry is that we've now abandoned that progress. 

I don't see how it's a red herring. The numbers speak for themselves. I could point out that two of what you are describing as series, were actually the 2013 and 2022 world cups, which had only 2 (double header semi final in 2013) and 1 match (2022) played in London. Out of how many games in those tournaments? To me it's hardly a ringing endorsement of the London and south fanbase, when you're taking only 1 world cup game to their city. And the fact that it was two semi finals that were chosen, tells me that the administrators think it will probably take something very high profile to get the fans out.

As I said, I would be interested to hear the view from the RFL. Someone in that organisation has chosen not to play Tonga or Samoa in London. Why?

[gingerjon]

21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

the worry is that we've now abandoned that progress. 

I'll not get into a point about your numbers include both World Cups - not direct RFL events - and then a game that was not played but, on this, the reality is now that we are in an unbroken sequence of underwhelming events, barely marketed, presented as the exact opposite of big-time shows, all held on the M62 corridor.
 

Supporters away from that corridor are absolutely right to think this sport is not for them when that is combined with so much else going on RL from the woeful promotion and low-key event nature of the Challenge Cup to Magic becoming an M62 event to development outside the heartlands being slashed - and that's before you get to the odds being stacked so heavily against the handful of clubs clinging on in the face of a sport that doesn't want them.

The end result is that the audience has almost certainly moved on. There can't be any continuation of that earlier progress (leaving aside the debate around that). If the sport ever meaningfully comes back to London (or any non M62 place) it will be essentially starting from scratch.

[Mojo]

8 hours ago, John bird said:

How awesome is it going to be to see Sualauvi fa’alogo playing on English soil!!

hope he stays fit and doesn’t get pulled for any end of season “rest.”

He will be the first one on the plane. He's a Samoan born kid who loves representing samoa. He's also the only one that shares all the samoan team posts on Instagram. He posted the samoa vs england tour on his instagram story as soon as the news came out.

He is a talent that's for sure

[Dave T]

50 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I'll not get into a point about your numbers include both World Cups - not direct RFL events - and then a game that was not played but, on this, the reality is now that we are in an unbroken sequence of underwhelming events, barely marketed, presented as the exact opposite of big-time shows, all held on the M62 corridor.
 

Supporters away from that corridor are absolutely right to think this sport is not for them when that is combined with so much else going on RL from the woeful promotion and low-key event nature of the Challenge Cup to Magic becoming an M62 event to development outside the heartlands being slashed - and that's before you get to the odds being stacked so heavily against the handful of clubs clinging on in the face of a sport that doesn't want them.

The end result is that the audience has almost certainly moved on. There can't be any continuation of that earlier progress (leaving aside the debate around that). If the sport ever meaningfully comes back to London (or any non M62 place) it will be essentially starting from scratch.

Come on, the RFL directly ran the world cups. 

The 90s saw focus on London and we got good results. 00's we backed away almost completely, and then the 10's we went back. 

When people say we only played 5 tests in London, it ignores the fact we only scheduled 8 series in total during that time (and one was the low key Wales/France tri nations). 

The primary issue is not enough home games. The secondary issue is not enough London games. Then we have the very real worry that this is two on the bounce without a London game, suggesting we have lost all confidence. 

[John bird]

12 minutes ago, Mojo said:

He will be the first one on the plane. He's a Samoan born kid who loves representing samoa. He's also the only one that shares all the samoan team posts on Instagram. He posted the samoa vs england tour on his instagram story as soon as the news came out.

He is a talent that's for sure

Hopefully Samoan born RTS will be second on the plane after fa’alogo.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, 17 stone giant said:

I don't see how it's a red herring. The numbers speak for themselves. I could point out that two of what you are describing as series, were actually the 2013 and 2022 world cups, which had only 2 (double header semi final in 2013) and 1 match (2022) played in London. Out of how many games in those tournaments? To me it's hardly a ringing endorsement of the London and south fanbase, when you're taking only 1 world cup game to their city. And the fact that it was two semi finals that were chosen, tells me that the administrators think it will probably take something very high profile to get the fans out.

As I said, I would be interested to hear the view from the RFL. Someone in that organisation has chosen not to play Tonga or Samoa in London. Why?

Yes, the numbers showed out of 8 series we played in London for 5 of them. 

I'm not into this weird rewriting of history that suggests that world cups in the UK are not RL tournaments and when we play in London they don't really count.