Euro 2024

[Maximus Decimus]

Thought this could do with its own thread. As ever, a glorious month awaits.

The opener tonight is intriguing enough, but I expect Germany to win easy enough.

As for the winner, I don't buy the idea that England are favourites. France look to be a head above and without upsets, England would end up facing them in the semis.

I do have some things I'd like to see for England. I'd like to see us knock out a genuinely top nation. Since 1966, I don't think you can argue that we have done. The closest we've have is Spain in '96 and Germany in '20 but especially with the latter they weren't the Germany of old. Apart from these, anytime we've faced a top nation we've lost (usually on penalties...).

I'm also hoping we don't see the usual silly beggar stuff that we do on the continent. I'm pretty sure 2006 was an OK one from that respect.

 

[gingerjon]

9 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I do have some things I'd like to see for England. I'd like to see us knock out a genuinely top nation.

 

We can do that after we win the title by beating the Faroe Islands' reserve 11 in the final.

0-0, win on pens.

I genuinely will not care.

Get the title and then be bothered about the other stuff.

Anyway, this title is going to ... actually I have no idea. I only realised I was interested a couple of hours ago so right now I am all in Deutschland and their upcoming game against England North.

 

[17 stone giant]

31 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I do have some things I'd like to see for England. I'd like to see us knock out a genuinely top nation. Since 1966, I don't think you can argue that we have done. The closest we've have is Spain in '96 and Germany in '20 but especially with the latter they weren't the Germany of old. Apart from these, anytime we've faced a top nation we've lost (usually on penalties...).

I'm also hoping we don't see the usual silly beggar stuff that we do on the continent. I'm pretty sure 2006 was an OK one from that respect.

 

That's why I don't get the adulation from some people for Gareth Southgate. I think he's a great guy and a good manager, but I don't think he yet deserves much more praise than that.

As you mentioned, Germany 2020 aside (when we also had home advantage), we have failed to beat the top teams when it really matters.

2018 Croatia

2020 Italy (despite home advantage again)

2022 France

You can even throw in a Nations League SF against Netherlands which we lost 3-1.

If you pick any of the established top teams (the likes of France, Spain, Germany, Italy, even Argentina and Brazil at a world level), you can reel off numerous times that they've beaten each other when it really mattered - knockout stages and finals. England just aren't in that class yet.

It even annoys the heck out of me when people go on about the 5-1 against Germany in 2001. Who cares? Germany still qualified, and in fact 9 months or so later, they were in another World Cup Final while we were on the plane home after blowing a QF against 10 men Brazil!

I hope this time will be different. If it is, I will happily give Southgate all the praise he deserves.

[gingerjon]

6 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

That's why I don't get the adulation from some people for Gareth Southgate. 

It's really simple.

Compare both the team spirit in the sense of players consistently wanting to be part of the England set-up and not putting club loyalties ahead of the national side - and the overall progress in tournaments under Southgate with every other set-up and tournament bar the one we hosted in 1966.

And if you still don't get it, compare them some more. England have historically massively underperformed to an embarrassing level, and now we're closer to getting there in an era with more competitive nations.

It's not perfect but it's a golden period compared to what has gone before. And, rather crucially, no indication that there's anyone out there who would take the job who would do better.

[Sidi Fidi Gold]

First Euro's memories anyone ?

Mine was England v Belgium 1980, a 1-1 draw, I remember Ray Wilkins scoring a great goal, I remember England having a goal disallowed, I remember England fans rioting on the terraces and Italian police using tear gas which drifted onto the pitch forcing the players off, then we lost to hosts Italy, before beating Spain in the final game. I don't remember anything about any other game in the tournament.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

Well I'm in my hotel room in Whitby watching this intriguing opener after walking 20 miles from Scarborough to get here. 10 mile walk tomorrow and hopefully I'll be back quick enough to get all the games in. Been really looking forward to this tournament, so happy it's finally here!

[Maximus Decimus]

15 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

That's why I don't get the adulation from some people for Gareth Southgate. I think he's a great guy and a good manager, but I don't think he yet deserves much more praise than that.

As you mentioned, Germany 2020 aside (when we also had home advantage), we have failed to beat the top teams when it really matters.

2018 Croatia

2020 Italy (despite home advantage again)

2022 France

You can even throw in a Nations League SF against Netherlands which we lost 3-1.

If you pick any of the established top teams (the likes of France, Spain, Germany, Italy, even Argentina and Brazil at a world level), you can reel off numerous times that they've beaten each other when it really mattered - knockout stages and finals. England just aren't in that class yet.

It even annoys the heck out of me when people go on about the 5-1 against Germany in 2001. Who cares? Germany still qualified, and in fact 9 months or so later, they were in another World Cup Final while we were on the plane home after blowing a QF against 10 men Brazil!

I hope this time will be different. If it is, I will happily give Southgate all the praise he deserves.

In my experience, people have very short memories on this front.

Losing to Iceland in 2016 was the culmination of a couple of decades of seriously bad performances in big tournaments. It wasn't even the losses on penalties, it was struggling against the likes of Algeria, Trinidad and Tobago, scraping through the groups against Slovenia etc.

We might not have beaten a top top nation when it mattered yet, but beating the likes of Germany, Sweden and Denmark in knockout games whilst battering some smaller nations is actually a genuine improvement.

[unapologetic pedant]

26 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

We can do that after we win the title by beating the Faroe Islands' reserve 11 in the final.

Anyway, this title is going to ... actually I have no idea. I only realised I was interested a couple of hours ago so right now I am all in Deutschland and their upcoming game against England North.

The plucky underdogs of Bonnie North Britain have drawn twice with the Whale-Slaughtering Sadists.

A fixture where all right-thinking people want both teams to lose.

[17 stone giant]

1 minute ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said:

First Euro's memories anyone ?

Just vague recollections from 1988 of the Dutch being very good.

[unapologetic pedant]

2 minutes ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said:

 I remember England fans rioting on the terraces 

After some Italians had urinated on them from a stand above.

[Maximus Decimus]

2 minutes ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said:

First Euro's memories anyone ?

Mine was England v Belgium 1980, a 1-1 draw, I remember Ray Wilkins scoring a great goal, I remember England having a goal disallowed, I remember England fans rioting on the terraces and Italian police using tear gas which drifted onto the pitch forcing the players off, then we lost to hosts Italy, before beating Spain in the final game. I don't remember anything about any other game in the tournament.

Mine is 1992. I had scouts during the last game of the groups, and I remember my dad passing the news we were 1-0 up. When he picked me up and said we'd lost, I didn't believe him - (he was a windup merchant).

I still lament the end of 16 team version. The 24 might give us more teams, but there is far less jeopardy involved in the groups for the big teams. IMO it was better than the World Cup for quality of games.

[gingerjon]

6 minutes ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said:

First Euro's memories anyone ?

Mine was England v Belgium 1980, a 1-1 draw, I remember Ray Wilkins scoring a great goal, I remember England having a goal disallowed, I remember England fans rioting on the terraces and Italian police using tear gas which drifted onto the pitch forcing the players off, then we lost to hosts Italy, before beating Spain in the final game. I don't remember anything about any other game in the tournament.

Apparently neither BBC nor ITV showed Euro 84 live which will be why I don't remember it.

So it's 1988 and England being abject.

I can still remember everyone in the living room leaping up off the sofa when van Basten scored in the final and all speaking, almost in tongues, "What was that?!"

[The Hallucinating Goose]

That was a very powerful rendition of Flower of Scotland! 

[17 stone giant]

2 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Losing to Iceland in 2016 was the culmination of a couple of decades of seriously bad performances in big tournaments.

No it wasn't. Don't re-write history. 1986 we lost in the QFs to eventual winners Argentina. 1990 we were penalty kicks away from a World Cup final, again losing to the winners. The same in 1996 with a European Championship final. Sven took us to three QFs, two that were lost on penalties and one against the eventual winners.

At times there's been fine margins - albeit fine margins is what we had to rely on because we weren't good enough to beat the big teams in normal play. Southgate won a penalty shootout in 2018 against Columbia in the Last 16. Had we lost that, how would that World Cup have been viewed?

Our past tournament record isn't as bad as you're making out, and neither is Gareth Southgate's as good as some people like to claim. You mention us beating Denmark under Southgate - have you forgotten we did that in 2002 under Sven. 3-0 in the Last 16.

I really like Southgate as a person and I think he's a good manager. But the way he's spoken about as if he's produced miracles, I just find to be nonsense.

[17 stone giant]

Just realised Maximus said a couple of decades of seriously bad performance and I went back further than that, but I think my point still stands. For example, Euro 2012 we lost on penalties to Italy. They were the better team, but with a bit of luck in the shootout we'd have been in a semi final.

[unapologetic pedant]

4 minutes ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said:

Mine was England v Belgium 1980, a 1-1 draw, I remember Ray Wilkins scoring a great goal,

Saw "Butch" at two Bolton v Chelsea games in the mid-70s. Obviously a cut above. Standard of pitches was a nightmare for skilful players in those days.

[Futtocks]

I've drawn Serbia in a Euro24 sweepstake. To be honest, I'm not expecting much.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

Good start from Scotland.

[unapologetic pedant]

Question for those who follow Association Football more closely -

Do you know who any of these Scottish players are?

Worth noting that by 2021, Scotland hadnae qualified for major finals since devolution.

[17 stone giant]

7 minutes ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Good start from Scotland.

Spoke too soon. 2-0 now.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

1 minute ago, 17 stone giant said:

Spoke too soon. 2-0 now.

I was being sarcastic.

[17 stone giant]

1 minute ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Question for those who follow Association Football more closely -

Do you know who any of these Scottish players are?

Worth noting that by 2021, Scotland hadnae qualified for major finals since devolution.

Since England beat them in the Euro 2000 playoffs, to be precise. I spent a few years telling my Scottish mates that defeat had cursed them and they wouldn't qualify again as a result. I got away with it until Euro 2020 and almost started believing my own nonsense.

And, yes, I know a lot of the Scottish players.

[17 stone giant]

Just now, The Hallucinating Goose said:

I was being sarcastic.

Oh, sorry. I missed the first 10 minutes so didn't know how they'd been playing. I thought you had commented prior to the 1st goal going in. Haha

[unapologetic pedant]

According to Wiki, Scotland's record defeat is 7-0 v Uruguay 1954 WC.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

2 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

According to Wiki, Scotland's record defeat is 7-0 v Uruguay 1954 WC.

Now why would you be mentioning that fact?