Swap Salford for Toulouse

[Tommygilf]

13 minutes ago, owls said:

If St Helens went to play in Australia, do you think any UK  national tv channel would give them a tv deal,  i would bet my mortgage no one would be interested, i will say it again, if there where 4 French teams in a super league of 16 clubs then a French tv would be a possibility, an isolated 1 club can not do that no matter how popular they are, 

 

Either that, or a persistent effort by the competition as a whole to drive interest in a broadcast territory like what the NFL do.

That could be hosting games, funding domestic broadcasts, for example.

The sport unfortunately doesn't seem to know how to do that in the UK let alone in France.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, owls said:

He wasnt attacking the UK game imo, just pointing out that no single English club could  individually land a tv contract either, so how on earth  can a French club, Super  League was set up to be a European league not a rebranded division 1, there should have been 2 French teams from the very start,  without super league we know what size Catalan are you say,  that could apply to many teams not fortunate enough to be  in Super  league, I believe Catalan bring a lot to the league, just my opinion,

Super Leafue is a rebeanded, repackaged  division one. It's the pinnacle of the UK RL pyramid. The French governing body don't have anything to do with it and any overseas teams are, and always have been guests. I think that's a big part of the problem. We know that UK teams are interchangeable, we've had 20-odd different teams in the comp over the years, elevated some, kicked some out etc.

While we say they add value to SL, it is important to be clear on what we mean. Because in pure financial, they have been a cost to SL. No commercial income brought in, but substantial costs and central funding routed to France instead of being spent in the UK - well over £20m in fact.

Catalans have had huge direct benefits from being in SL, whereas the benefits for SL are a little softer - imo they've absolutely been good for the brand perception of SL and have brought value to the sports competition.

I would have Catalans in the comp.every day of the week, they'd probably be one of my top 4 or 5 picks, but I don't think we should shy away from harsh realities.

Now this is where I tend to.agree with you. I don't think the strategy of putting a club in SL will just bring a TV deal in, or even two teams. But plenty have claimed that. And plenty claimed TWP would see us dip.into the biggest sports market in the world. This just isn't how we will get improved international rights, and we need to be honest about that.

We need to be real.about what the benefits of teams are when they are admitted. What are Toulouse bringing to the Championship? Should they just be in SL or nothing, exempt from P&R?

I'm interested in what the actual business case was for Catalans in SL, because there is a tendency under any challenge for people to.claim 'that's not what it was about'. 

For me, they are a strong competitive club in SL that adds to the rugby comp. I'm good with that. Not everyone will be.

[sweaty craiq]

1 hour ago, owls said:

If St Helens went to play in Australia, do you think any UK  national tv channel would give them a tv deal,  i would bet my mortgage no one would be interested, i will say it again, if there where 4 French teams in a super league of 16 clubs then a French tv would be a possibility, an isolated 1 club can not do that no matter how popular they are, 

 

Then they go to the French TV companies and ask the question “ If we had 4 French clubs in SL, how much would you pay?” Whatever they offer they put on the table to support SL expansion

[TrueBull]

On 17/01/2025 at 11:37, The Phantom Horseman said:

 

Bradford - certainly seem have the strongest squad in the Championship on paper but the mystery of how their ground now seems to be deemed SL-ready remains. For years Bradford fans have acknowledged that the crumbling Odsal is in no way, shape or form suitable for SL, but with the IMG criteria focusing almost exclusively on broadcast/TV requirements, a new TV gantry and a new bar behind the stand appear to have miraculously transformed it into a SL-ready stadium which seems laughable to most Championship fans, whilst the pitch itself is only about 86m long and still seems to be extremely narrow.
 

Fair point about the ground. A side effect of IMG is that money is now only spent on improvements that tick boxes - gantries, directors boxes etc. 

The point in Bradford's favour which isn't touched on, is finance. Especially when we are talking about Salford's issues. 

Bradford are spending enough money for a strong championship squad (£500k?) and a full academy setup (£150k?) on the usual Championship incomes - TV deal, tickets, sponsorship & corporate and have broken even or made a small profit each of the last 2 years accounts. The Championship central funding is now pretty low. If Bradford were to get the £1.5m or so of SL central funding, the majority would be able to go on the squad. Especially if corporate, sponsorship and ticket sales all improve as well. 

You would basically have a club that can spend at or near the salary cap on the current SL central funding whilst breaking even. Not a lot of clubs can do that.  Although one with a pitch that would need dispensation every year. 

[Bull Mania]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Super Leafue is a rebeanded, repackaged  division one. It's the pinnacle of the UK RL pyramid. The French governing body don't have anything to do with it and any overseas teams are, and always have been guests. I think that's a big part of the problem. We know that UK teams are interchangeable, we've had 20-odd different teams in the comp over the years, elevated some, kicked some out etc.

While we say they add value to SL, it is important to be clear on what we mean. Because in pure financial, they have been a cost to SL. No commercial income brought in, but substantial costs and central funding routed to France instead of being spent in the UK - well over £20m in fact.

Catalans have had huge direct benefits from being in SL, whereas the benefits for SL are a little softer - imo they've absolutely been good for the brand perception of SL and have brought value to the sports competition.

I would have Catalans in the comp.every day of the week, they'd probably be one of my top 4 or 5 picks, but I don't think we should shy away from harsh realities.

Now this is where I tend to.agree with you. I don't think the strategy of putting a club in SL will just bring a TV deal in, or even two teams. But plenty have claimed that. And plenty claimed TWP would see us dip.into the biggest sports market in the world. This just isn't how we will get improved international rights, and we need to be honest about that.

We need to be real.about what the benefits of teams are when they are admitted. What are Toulouse bringing to the Championship? Should they just be in SL or nothing, exempt from P&R?

I'm interested in what the actual business case was for Catalans in SL, because there is a tendency under any challenge for people to.claim 'that's not what it was about'. 

For me, they are a strong competitive club in SL that adds to the rugby comp. I'm good with that. Not everyone will be.

Outstanding post. Agree with all of it.  The French team debate is multi layered. 

I too like Catalans, they're a very strong club and deserve a place in SL.  But it has come at a commercial impact to SL. Which is why me and you probably disagree on the benefit on having two French clubs in a 12 team SL. I think it hurts SL too much commercially. As you say, SL is a British comp as all the commercial stuff will be done with British companies. 

In response to your question of Toulouse impact on the champ, I found it quite interesting we put our match day packages on social media this week.  We look to have sold around 90% of the packages. The gaping hole was Toulouse which had all the packages still available, despite it being the cheapest fixture. Now as a fan toulouse will be the game I can't wait for as it will likely be a clash of two sides batting near the top. But it does show the challenge clubs have commercially with a French team 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

24 minutes ago, TrueBull said:

You would basically have a club that can spend at or near the salary cap on the current SL central funding whilst breaking even. Not a lot of clubs can do that.

You seem to have forgotten that Bradford couldn't actually do that either.......

[TrueBull]

21 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

You seem to have forgotten that Bradford couldn't actually do that either.......

You seem to have forgotten that 12 years have passed. 

[JohnM]

9 hours ago, The Future is League said:

They had to bring in IMG for that project as they was incapable of doing it themselves.

I don't blame them entirely as I think Rimmer has a lot to answer for, in my opinion.

Yes, odd isn't it that they brought in a "global sports & culture company, specializing in rights, data, digital, partnerships, events, consulting, studios and more" rather than trying to do it themselves.  It's the same here. I didn't build my own house. I used a company that does that for a living.

Of, course, the builder doesn't always get things 100% right first time and has to be called back to do some minor repairs from time to time but the builder may also tell me if some of he faults are due to my own actions or carelessness.

Edited January 19 by JohnM
Added note for sensitive souls.

[owls]

19 hours ago, Dave T said:

Super Leafue is a rebeanded, repackaged  division one. It's the pinnacle of the UK RL pyramid. The French governing body don't have anything to do with it and any overseas teams are, and always have been guests. I think that's a big part of the problem. We know that UK teams are interchangeable, we've had 20-odd different teams in the comp over the years, elevated some, kicked some out etc.

While we say they add value to SL, it is important to be clear on what we mean. Because in pure financial, they have been a cost to SL. No commercial income brought in, but substantial costs and central funding routed to France instead of being spent in the UK - well over £20m in fact.

Catalans have had huge direct benefits from being in SL, whereas the benefits for SL are a little softer - imo they've absolutely been good for the brand perception of SL and have brought value to the sports competition.

I would have Catalans in the comp.every day of the week, they'd probably be one of my top 4 or 5 picks, but I don't think we should shy away from harsh realities.

Now this is where I tend to.agree with you. I don't think the strategy of putting a club in SL will just bring a TV deal in, or even two teams. But plenty have claimed that. And plenty claimed TWP would see us dip.into the biggest sports market in the world. This just isn't how we will get improved international rights, and we need to be honest about that.

We need to be real.about what the benefits of teams are when they are admitted. What are Toulouse bringing to the Championship? Should they just be in SL or nothing, exempt from P&R?

I'm interested in what the actual business case was for Catalans in SL, because there is a tendency under any challenge for people to.claim 'that's not what it was about'. 

For me, they are a strong competitive club in SL that adds to the rugby comp. I'm good with that. Not everyone will be.

I disagree about it being a rebranded division 1,  i remember  the build up for the first ever super league game Paris v Sheffield and all the hype surrounding it, one of the new statements,  (a new exciting beginning for rugby league)  yes it is the UKs premier competition and the French federation have no input, but it was Super League Europe, and the initial plan was for 2 French teams,

[Dave T]

52 minutes ago, owls said:

I disagree about it being a rebranded division 1,  i remember  the build up for the first ever super league game Paris v Sheffield and all the hype surrounding it, one of the new statements,  (a new exciting beginning for rugby league)  yes it is the UKs premier competition and the French federation have no input, but it was Super League Europe, and the initial plan was for 2 French teams,

If it wasn't the new Division One, where is the division one?

During the life of SL we have had 3 different French teams, a Welsh team, a Canadian team, but it's pretty much the same way Cardiff, Wrexham and Swansea play in the English pyramid of football.

It was still the RFL comp, with the RFL's clubs, with a guest team who weren't really a thing and had little to no rights. 

How it was marketed doesn't really mean much, a lot of the marketing guff was the same as was used for the Premier League in football too.

Edited January 20 by Dave T

[owls]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

If it wasn't the new Division One, where is the division one?

During the life of SL we have had 3 different French teams, a Welsh team, a Canadian team, but it's pretty much the same way Cardiff, Wrexham and Swansea play in the English pyramid of football.

It was still the RFL comp, with the RFL's clubs, with a guest team who weren't really a thing and had little to no rights. 

How it was marketed doesn't really mean much, a lot of the marketing guff was the same as was used for the Premier League in football too.

I hardly think it is comparable to the footballs premier league, no automatic promotion or relegation  in SLE some years so indeed ran as a separate  entity. Footballs premier league didnt do that,  the RFL did not have full control over the league either, Richard Lewis at that time had to negotiate with SLE. any way lets agree to disagree,

Edited January 20 by owls

[Harry Stottle]

On 19/01/2025 at 15:23, Bull Mania said:

Now as a fan toulouse will be the game I can't wait for as it will likely be a clash of two sides batting near the top. But it does show the challenge clubs have commercially with a French team 

Yes away support does matter, ask any financial director of any professional club, back on topic Salford have brought more fans to the games at the LSV in the last couple of seasons than collectively Catalan and Toulouse have done ever.

[Tommygilf]

43 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes away support does matter, ask any financial director of any professional club, back on topic Salford have brought more fans to the games at the LSV in the last couple of seasons than collectively Catalan and Toulouse have done ever.

2023 Season:

Leigh vs Salford attendance: 6002 

Leigh vs Catalans attendance: 8602

2024 Season:

Leigh vs Salford attendance: 8103

Leigh vs Catalans attendance: 7321

https://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/seasons/super-league-xxix-2024/leigh/summary.html

Edited January 21 by Tommygilf

[Harry Stottle]

22 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

2023 Season:

Leigh vs Salford attendance: 6002 

Leigh vs Catalans attendance: 8602

2024 Season:

Leigh vs Salford attendance: 8103

Leigh vs Catalans attendance: 7321

https://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/seasons/super-league-xxix-2024/leigh/summary.html

Fair enough Tommy, but in '23 the 'headline' figures don't really tell tell the whole story, v Salford it was the first game of the season in Feb after promotion in '22, v. Catalan it was the first game after the Wembley victory the town in celebratory mood after 52 barren years and wanted to welcome the team back, whoever the opposition was the attendance would have been a good one. In '24 off the back of a great '23 more season tickets were sold.

But it goes without saying those attendances would be increased if Cats did have a following of any note, not that I expect them to, it is most probably out of the financial reach of the rank and file of Catalan fans, which is evident in my initial statement that not many fans of either French team travel to many away games.

Edited January 22 by Harry Stottle

[Click]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Fair enough Tommy, but in '23 the 'headline' figures don't really tell tell the whole story, v Salford it was the first game of the season in Feb after promotion in '22, v. Catalan it was the first game after the Wembley victory the town in celebratory mood after 52 baron years and wanted to welcome the team back, whoever the opposition was the attendance would have been a good one. In '24 off the back of a great '23 more season tickets were sold.

But it goes without saying those attendances would be increased if Cats did have a following of any note, not that I expect them to, it is most probably out of the financial reach of the rank and file of Catalan fans, which is evident in my initial statement that not many fans of either French team travel to many away games.

You wouldn't either if you had to go to another country every 2 weeks.

[M j M]

20 minutes ago, Click said:

You wouldn't either if you had to go to another country every 2 weeks.

Quite, what would the average away following of any other SL's team be if every other game was in the south of France, and more than half of those probably on Thursday or Friday night.

[Dullish Mood]

49 minutes ago, M j M said:

Quite, what would the average away following of any other SL's team be if every other game was in the south of France, and more than half of those probably on Thursday or Friday night.

About 12 people.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Click said:

You wouldn't either if you had to go to another country every 2 weeks.

Isn't that what I said?

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Click said:

You wouldn't either if you had to go to another country every 2 weeks.

 

1 hour ago, M j M said:

Quite, what would the average away following of any other SL's team be if every other game was in the south of France, and more than half of those probably on Thursday or Friday night.

Thanks both, for in a round about way agreeing with me saying that the French clubs offer very little with contributing to attendances for games they play over here.

Warrington recognised this last year and to counteract the expected missing 'away' fans virtually gave tickets away for a fiver for the visit of Catalan. Which in my view was a very good move, better to have someone stood on an available couple square foot of concrete and make a fiver from it than not.