Jump to content


Rugby League World Issue 400 - Out Now!

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE - ISSUE 400 - OUT NOW!
84 pages, 38 years of history from Open Rugby to the present day.
Click here for the digital edition to read online via smartphone, tablet and desktop devices including iPhone, iPad, Android & Kindle HD.
Click here to order a copy for delivery by post. Annual subscriptions also available worldwide.
Find out what's inside Issue 400
/ View a Gallery of all 400 covers / WH Smith Branches stocking Issue 400
Read Jamie Jones-Buchanan's Top 5 RLW Interviews including Marwan Koukash, Lee Briers, Gareth Thomas, Steve Ganson & Matt King OBE


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

A Question from a RU Fan.


  • Please log in to reply
65 replies to this topic

#21 tonyXIII

tonyXIII
  • Coach
  • 4,957 posts

Posted 18 September 2010 - 09:18 PM

QUOTE (Doghead @ Sep 18 2010, 07:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Perhaps the worst aspect of a Union game is the fact that forwards dont stay on their feet, choosing 99% of the time to go to ground hoping for a quick recycle of the ball, then they do it again, progress up field if any is very slow.
Watch league, granted two less players but top teams can and do make 40/50 yards most 6 tackles.


And make those 40/50 yards in about a minute! The game is just so much more fluid.

If you think the scrums are pointless, you are coming from a union background. They are much better than they were and a whole lot better than union scrums, if only you can see them with fresh eyes! League scrums are just a quick(ish) way to restart the game. The only time the ref demands a reset scrum is if there aren't 6 players packed down. That happens once, then the scrum is fed, the ball is released and the game continues. Try timing a few league scrums and union scrums and compare them. League scrums are over faster. Not a problem.

Rethymno Rugby League Appreciation Society
Founder (and, so far, only) member.


#22 welshexile1963

welshexile1963
  • Players
  • 8 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:39 AM

QUOTE (East Coast Tiger @ Sep 18 2010, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The rugby league scrum is no different from the union scrum. The side that feeds it wins it 99% of the time, except in RL we don't waste half an hour of every game packing and re-packing pointless scrums and spending hundreds of hours training just so a team can nullify the other side's equally pointless scrum push.

As for backs being the same as forwards, it's just not true. The roles in RL are pretty clearly defined for the most part and the forwards and backs have their own roles.


A few points here, firstly most if not all RU fans enjoy watching the physical battle between forwards at a scrum, but I do take your point, but you state "As for backs being the same as forwards, it's just not true. The roles in RL are pretty clearly defined for the most part and the forwards and backs have their own roles" please clarify.

#23 welshexile1963

welshexile1963
  • Players
  • 8 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:41 AM

QUOTE (l'angelo mysterioso @ Sep 18 2010, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1 there aren't many scrums in a rugy league game
they are a way of restarting the game whilst at the same time taking 12 players out of the game.

2 I supose you differentiate by observing the tactical stuation, or observing what a player is doing at any one time. Notionally for instance the hooker will go to acting half back, but not necessarily so by any means, props will drive the ball forward, but not necessarily so.

these days wingers have a much more to do defensively with the greater number and wider variety of attacking kicks.
Tactical situations in rugby league are much more fluid than in union.

Don't worry about it mate, just enjoy it.
and yes come on the drusaders


Thanks that clarifies things a lot, and I do enjoy watching, I played Union for many years and would have loved having a go at League however my build is for a front row forward in Union and dont think i would have been any good in League. biggrin.gif

#24 welshexile1963

welshexile1963
  • Players
  • 8 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:43 AM

QUOTE (Doghead @ Sep 18 2010, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The point of a scrum is to simply restart play, nothing else, Union made the scrum into a sacred institution, but are now slowly following League.
League style scrums will change Union big style, no place left for the fat lads to hide anymore. just sort out how to restart after a tackle and your almost there.


What about us fat lads!!!!! biggrin.gif

#25 welshexile1963

welshexile1963
  • Players
  • 8 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:48 AM

Thanks for all the replies and most have been very useful and many very funny, I will always love RU but I am growing to love RL with each game, and at least we dont watch that stupid game played with a round ball angry.gif

#26 Steve May

Steve May
  • Coach
  • 10,111 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:53 AM

QUOTE (ShotgunGold @ Sep 18 2010, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When I first watched RL the scrum was the only time when I went WTF. It's the worst bit about the game and something needs changing. Don't actually know how it needs to change, but it does!! I can't imagine how many people it puts off the game when they are watching for the first time. When I am explaining the game to a friend (which is pretty regular) I just keep quiet when a scrum happens!!



I honestly can't imagine that someone would watch RL and think "This is terrific, but that scrum is a nonsense so I'll never watch again"

That's me.  I'm done.


#27 Steve May

Steve May
  • Coach
  • 10,111 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:56 AM

QUOTE (welshexile1963 @ Sep 18 2010, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
2. The forwards in RL? They dont seem to do much different than the backs, how do you life long supporters differentiate between both?


In RU it seems to me that all the players have defined roles that they stick to fairly rigidly. In RL there are roles to be carried out and they are done by whichever player is best suited to do it at the time. We differentiate between the players by what they do rather than the number on their backs.

RL is much more flexible and fluid than RU.

That's me.  I'm done.


#28 trakl

trakl
  • Coach
  • 1,180 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 11:46 AM

CODE
If you think the scrums are pointless, you are coming from a union background. They are much better than they were and a whole lot better than union scrums, if only you can see them with fresh eyes! League scrums are just a quick(ish) way to restart the game.


I accept your point - one made by many others on this thread - that rugby league scrums are "just a...way to restart the game" but try to see these scrums from the point of view of those coming not merely from a union background but also a general sporting background.

These people might be thinking just why it is that something so contrived and artificial is a means to re-starting the game at all? Why does it look so shambolic, even risible? What skills are employed by the players taking part in this rigmarole? Why is a "hooker" still called a "hooker?" And precisely because there are relatively so few scrums anyway - why have them at all? Are they not a crumbling relic from a time when contesting possession of the football meant something altogether different?

I don't want rugby union scrums in a rugby league game. And even though I have long felt that re-starting the game with a scrum after a player has been dragged into touch is illogical as well as pointless - I want even less those pantomimic rugby union line-outs. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the game lacks the courage of its convictions by refusing to dispense with scrums and maybe looking elsewhere at other sports for clues as to how best to re-start the game. If my memory serves me well, Brian Smith wrote on just this topic many years ago when he had a regular slot in Open Rugby - although, er, I've forgotten just what he wrote!

Rugby league's rules surely have not reached a state of perfection? Are there any people in the upper echelons of the game charged with looking at ways the game of rugby league might develop and even improve?

And bring back "raking" at the play-the-ball...




#29 Bostik Bailey

Bostik Bailey
  • Coach
  • 1,678 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 12:11 PM

QUOTE (trakl @ Sep 19 2010, 12:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[code=auto:0]And bring back "raking" at the play-the-ball...


Seconded

#30 hindle xiii

hindle xiii
  • Coach
  • 20,988 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 12:13 PM

QUOTE (welshexile1963 @ Sep 19 2010, 10:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
... I will always love RU ...

Give it time.

2826856.jpg?type=articleLandscape

 

On Odsal Top baht 'at.


#31 Hornetto

Hornetto
  • Coach
  • 3,111 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 12:34 PM

QUOTE (Doghead @ Sep 18 2010, 05:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Perhaps the worst aspect of a Union game is the fact that forwards dont stay on their feet, choosing 99% of the time to go to ground hoping for a quick recycle of the ball, then they do it again, progress up field if any is very slow.
Watch league, granted two less players but top teams can and do make 40/50 yards most 6 tackles.


As an exception that proves the rule, I saw Nottingham Outlaws play at Underbank earlier this year and Notts' game plan was: as soon as they hit the line of defence, they went to ground immediately in a 'surrender tackle' and jumped straight back up for a super-fast play the ball. It absolutely killed Underbank for the first 20 mins and it was hugely impressive to see a team adhere to a plan so effectively.

The downside was that Notts burned themselves out after half an hour and Underbank simply bludgeoned them backwards for the remainder of the game. Could a fitter team keep this up for 80 minutes?

Also, last week at Fylde, Blackpool contested all of the early scrums: big pushes, lots of raking and they took one against the head. Ugly, but interesting.

Despite this, the scrum is a restart mechanism that takes the big defensive hitters out of the defensive line (and out of position) for one play: it's up to creative half-backs to exploit the space and open up the game.

And if you think that RL players are all of a 'template' size, I give you Rob Burrow, Swinton's Gary Hulse and our own Steve Roper as examples that it's seldom the size of the dog in the fight that matters, but rather the size of the fight in the dog.

Posted Image
These Lads Can Run for 80 Minutes - the infamous Hornets fanzine is back from the dead: and just as biased as ever!
Match reports, previews and other stuff that comes into our heads at
http://theseladscanr...ns.blogspot.com


#32 Wolford6

Wolford6
  • Coach
  • 9,606 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 02:17 PM

QUOTE (welshexile1963 @ Sep 19 2010, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What about us fat lads!!!!! biggrin.gif


Plenty of room for fat lads in RL. Watch any amateur and semi-pro team and there are quite a few. The honed bodies in superleague are a reflec tion of: -
- full time training and dietary control
- the nature of the game doesnt require a bit of padding which is necessary for players in the RU forwards ... the full-time-RU pros aren't as fat as they were but still carry far more timber than their RL equivalents.
- the continual-interchange system means they only have to play in 20-minute bursts ... bodies can be honed for impact at the expense of endurance.
- the perfunctory scrum and playing in a summer season means no one gets heavily fatigued by playing in heavy mud and prolonged pushing and pulling in scrums and mauls.

Take no notice of the people on this board who disparage the RU scrum; they've never packed down in one and don't understand the value of wearing the opposition down, wearying both sets of forwards to allow the backs to flourish and the raising of morale that a strong pack can engender.

The RU scrum is fantastic to play in, but not so good for spectators ... that's why RL, which had to survive on its gates, reduced it to a mere restart. Most teams now put backs in the scrum to allow harder tackling/running forwards to either reinforce the defence and/or provide a battering ram for the first reception.

Both RU and RL scrums fulfill the separate purposes for which they are intended. I really enjoyed playing in both.

It's just that some posters on this board think that, because RL is great, RU must be rubbish. Perhaps one day they'll grow up.



Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police


#33 Doghead

Doghead
  • Coach
  • 1,041 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 04:07 PM

QUOTE (Wolford6 @ Sep 19 2010, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Plenty of room for fat lads in RL. Watch any amateur and semi-pro team and there are quite a few. The honed bodies in superleague are a reflec tion of: -
- full time training and dietary control
- the nature of the game doesnt require a bit of padding which is necessary for players in the RU forwards ... the full-time-RU pros aren't as fat as they were but still carry far more timber than their RL equivalents.
- the continual-interchange system means they only have to play in 20-minute bursts ... bodies can be honed for impact at the expense of endurance.
- the perfunctory scrum and playing in a summer season means no one gets heavily fatigued by playing in heavy mud and prolonged pushing and pulling in scrums and mauls.

Take no notice of the people on this board who disparage the RU scrum; they've never packed down in one and don't understand the value of wearing the opposition down, wearying both sets of forwards to allow the backs to flourish and the raising of morale that a strong pack can engender.

The RU scrum is fantastic to play in, but not so good for spectators ... that's why RL, which had to survive on its gates, reduced it to a mere restart. Most teams now put backs in the scrum to allow harder tackling/running forwards to either reinforce the defence and/or provide a battering ram for the first reception.

Both RU and RL scrums fulfill the separate purposes for which they are intended. I really enjoyed playing in both.

It's just that some posters on this board think that, because RL is great, RU must be rubbish. Perhaps one day they'll grow up.



As I said above "Union made the scrum into a sacred institution" This post goes someway in proving my point,

#34 Chairman M

Chairman M
  • Coach
  • 11,823 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 04:35 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Sep 18 2010, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm a bit of a Union novice but there is certainly more to the scrum than just winning the ball. I always thought it was similar to the way a forward pack gets on top in RL. If your forward pack are dominant then you stand a much better chance of winning.
Exactly. Scrums against the head are not that common in RU but if you have a dominant pack of forwards in the scrum then over the whole match this will show because the weaker pack will have been worn down. The only problem I have with the RU scrum is the bloody re-sets.

The RL scrum, as often seen by RU fans is not a joke. It takes players out of the defensive line and creates a tad more space. My only beef is that teams are now using more backs in the scrum instead of the forwards.

Leicester Saint


#35 MrPosh

MrPosh
  • Coach
  • 3,058 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 06:33 PM

QUOTE (Wolford6 @ Sep 19 2010, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The RU scrum is fantastic to play in, but not so good for spectators ... that's why RL, which had to survive on its gates, reduced it to a mere restart. Most teams now put backs in the scrum to allow harder tackling/running forwards to either reinforce the defence and/or provide a battering ram for the first reception.

And there sums up the whole difference. 100 years of evolution in different direction - one for fans and one for players.

Wanted to finish with a monkeys and ELVs thing, but it would have been too convoluted.
People called Romans they go the house

#36 welshexile1963

welshexile1963
  • Players
  • 8 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 06:59 PM

QUOTE (hindle xiii @ Sep 19 2010, 12:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Give it time.


Why do I pick up so much negativity towards RU by RL fans? There's no need for it there's room in the world for both codes!

#37 terrywebbisgod

terrywebbisgod
  • Coach
  • 8,096 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:00 PM

QUOTE (welshexile1963 @ Sep 19 2010, 07:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why do I pick up so much negativity towards RU by RL fans? There's no need for it there's room in the world for both codes!

Persecution from the RU authorities in the past.
Once you have tasted excellence,you cannot go back to mediocrity.

#38 welshexile1963

welshexile1963
  • Players
  • 8 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:02 PM

QUOTE (Wolford6 @ Sep 19 2010, 02:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Take no notice of the people on this board who disparage the RU scrum; they've never packed down in one and don't understand the value of wearing the opposition down, wearying both sets of forwards to allow the backs to flourish and the raising of morale that a strong pack can engender.


Ah yes happy days eh? I used to love the scrum and rucks in the middle of winter getting stuck in, it's one of the main things I miss as an old git!! I follow Moseley RFC and get quite worked up watching a pack of forwards doing it's stuff to set up the glory boys in the backs to do their bit! biggrin.gif

#39 welshexile1963

welshexile1963
  • Players
  • 8 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:04 PM

QUOTE (terrywebbisgod @ Sep 19 2010, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Persecution from the RU authorities in the past.


I understand that but lets move on!!! God knows us Welsh could be really cheesed off with the northern clubs for coming down and taking our best players but that was a different era times move on yes?

#40 Bob8

Bob8
  • Coach
  • 9,323 posts

Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:07 PM

QUOTE (welshexile1963 @ Sep 19 2010, 11:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A few points here, firstly most if not all RU fans enjoy watching the physical battle between forwards at a scrum, but I do take your point, but you state "As for backs being the same as forwards, it's just not true. The roles in RL are pretty clearly defined for the most part and the forwards and backs have their own roles" please clarify.


If I could direct you back to my earlier post, I would say that there is a different emphasis on skills in rugby league, but the roles are rather similar. The forward has to make the hard yards, but in union, this will be done in set pieces and there is a greater emphasis on size and strength. As RL is rather more one-on-one, there is a greater emphasis on handling skills, as the forward has to have the option of passing well, thus forcing the defender to wrap up the ball in the tackle.

The actual role is the same, how to do it is different.

(from a chap who has had his time in a rugby union scrum).

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users