David Argyle fires himself

[The Great Dane]

This is laughable.

The guy made a stupid off-coloured joke, that realistically didn't actually hurt anybody, and it's gone so far that it's come to this.

Say sorry to the guy and move on, the seppuku is totally unnecessary and frankly stupid as it creates a precedent in the organisation that you are going to be fired/quit when you make a silly mistake.

[deluded pom?]

39 minutes ago, RLDave said:

I hope he doesn't try to sue himself for unfair dismissal

He could take himself for millions if he wins. That would teach him.

[Damien]

I think this is complete overkill but it will make some on here delighted. I've not worked anywhere where this would be a sackable offence. Pretty damn serious and certainly a very strong warning, yes, but dismissal? No not for me. I just hope the club and game don't suffer on the back of this.

[Dave T]

Just now, Damien said:

I think this is complete overkill but it will make some on here delighted. I've not worked anywhere where this would be a sackable offence. Pretty damn serious and certainly a very strong warning, yes, but dismissal? No not for me. I just hope the club and game don't suffer on the back of this.

We have an extensive thread on this and I don't think I saw anybody calling for his head. We shouldn't argue Twitter's points on here.

[deluded pom?]

You basically have to commit murder to be sacked from the company I work at.

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, deluded pom? said:

You basically have to commit murder to be sacked from the company I work at.

They certainly don't seem to clamp down on internet use for non-work reasons either 

[Toby Chopra]

1 minute ago, The Great Dane said:

This is laughable.

The guy made a stupid off-coloured joke, that realistically didn't actually hurt anybody, and it's gone so far that it's come to this.

Say sorry to the guy and move on, the seppuku is totally unnecessary and frankly stupid as it creates a precedent in the organisation that you are going to be fired/quit when you make a silly mistake.

It clearly did hurt somebody, as the target of the "joke" had made clear in his statements.

People telling Jose how he should feel about the incident (and the subtext from many seems to be 'stop making such a fuss') just makes it worse.

Its for him to tell us, not for you to decide whether it's serious or not. 

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not so sure. This doesn't have to be a sackable offence. People make mistakes. Even some work with a relevant charity would have been a solution. 

Hardaker got a ban and community work with a gay charity iirc for something far worse. 

He has done all he can do IMO , personally I don't consider what he said as actual ' abuse ' , it was a racial comment , most probably made in jest , I don't believe he was aiming to upset Jose , just the clumsy Aussie sense of humour , no criticism of Jose either , he was upset by it , and no blame for him in eventually going public , the RFL ? , Well as I said earlier , I was told of the incident a few days after it happened and that he had reported it , again the RFL in a difficult situation , did they speak to Mr Argyle about it ? , They should have , but probably hoped it would go away , 

Mr Argyle put everybody in a difficult situation , not easy for anybody to sort out , he has been quick to take full responsibility for it and do the honourable thing , time to move on 

[John Rhino]

1 hour ago, DoubleD said:

I think sadly this is the society we live in now, where it ends up with a social media storm and witch-hunt, and because of one mistake (and I’m not playing down the severity) he has to resign. 

You see it in all public walks of life now, where unfortunately an apology and vow to make amends and learn from mistakes is no longer enough. Very sad 

It only ended up on Twitter because when confronted with what he said at the time Argyle tried to laugh it off as a joke. The RFL also did nothing until the storm was raised.

It's a very sad day, but if an immediate and sincere apology had been offered at the time we'd never have heard about it.

And for all those on their high horse, go and read what what he said and then imagine hearing this directed at you every single day, in words, in print, on social media, on the terraces etc etc 

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, John Rhino said:

It only ended up on Twitter because when confronted with what he said at the time Argyle tried to laugh it off as a joke. The RFL also did nothing until the storm was raised.

It's a very sad day, but if an immediate and sincere apology had been offered at the time we'd never have heard about it.

And for all those on their high horse, go and read what what he said and then imagine hearing this directed at you every single day, in words, in print, on social media, on the terraces etc etc 

An awful lot of presumptions there.

[John Rhino]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

An awful lot of presumptions there.

Just reiterating what the people involved have said.

Are you accusing them of lying?

[Scubby]

This is just sad all round on both sides. The player has every right to be aggrieved and to complain. I would imagine Argyle will operate as a backroom figure now as part of the board. He has obviously fallen below his standards - and that of the company he works for - and taken action.

To say this is a result of how these things are highlighted today is not an excuse. I'm sure many of our black RL superstars from decades ago like Hanley, Offiah, Boston, Drummond, Powell etc. wish they had been able to highlight the treatment and comments they received during their pomp. 

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, John Rhino said:

Just reiterating what the people involved have said.

Are you accusing them of lying?

No you are not  Can you comprehend what is wrote?

[Bearman]

5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I sincerely hope that in time Argyle reconsiders this decision. It is the wrong one. Not just because my support for the wolfpack and my hope for their success but regardless. It is the wrong one. 

We, as a sport, need to offer a pathway for redemption. Too often we act as this parallel system of justice, moralising and excluding as if we can somehow hold ourselves to a high standard than the society we mirror. We can't, we just chase our tail and expose our hypocrisy. 

We have within our game owners who have challenged fans to a fight, we have players who have taken recreational and performance enhancing drugs, we have drink drivers, adulterers, gamblers, those guilty of homophobic and racist words and no doubt actions. We can't solve these problems and casting people out who make errors achieves nothing. 

All we can do is offer a pathway to redemption, and where we are successful we don't just mirror society, we improve it. Nobody gains by Argyle stepping down, we all lose a voice and driver of rugby league. Had we looked at this as a teaching moment. A moment to learn and change and create restitution we would have all gained. 

Great post.

 

[Rupert Prince]

3 hours ago, MZH said:

Good on Argyle for taking responsibility for his actions. Doesn't excuse what he said, but he has gained back a measure of respect for this response IMO. 

I don't think this needed to end with him stepping down though, but he obviously has some integrity and if he feels that is for the best then that's his call.

Hopefully Jose is satisfied with the apology and the chat they had, and let's move forward as a sport and try to make sure things like this don't happen again.

Yes his actions were wrong and Jose could take offence.   But are all wrong actions inexcusable?  In other words what was the ultimate purpose of the action?   In this case .....  is Mr Argyle racist?  I do not know, I am not at all sure what the point of his comment was.  But if he is not (for the purpose of this discussion) racist and is let us say just plain stupid or just a bad comedian, then is it not right to accept his apology and move on? 

The inexcusable issue is where someone is indeed racist.

To consider the issue by looking at the other end of the telescope...  is all Art excusable?  Would it say be wrong to make jokes about Jesus on the cross... or about the Prophet Mohammed? Some committed murder over a cartoon of the latter but we laugh about the Life of Brian.

[RP London]

This isnt helped by the RFL sitting on the complaint by the looks of it. I cannot imagine that an investigation would have concluded by asking him to resign. 

Weeks ago we could have had an rfl disciplinary coming out saying he has been fined $x and told to attend a course etc and most people would have been happy. But the way its been handled by the governing body leaving Jose with no other choice but to make it public has meant argyle has no choice but to decide his own punishment. He then has to make sure its severe otherwise he cheapens still the apology and looks as though he doesn't understand. So here we are. 

Jose had no choice thanks to rfl inactivity 

Argyle has reacted the only way he could

The RFL should have dealt with this as soon as Jose made the complaint and we wouldn't be here... got to wonder what the governing body actually does during the week!!!!

[Rupert Prince]

I do think you have used a fair word there Mr Scotchy.    "redemption"

Sincerity is of course needed as well.  

This is a wider issue of course other than what is being discussed here.

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

People are allowed to dislike things, and say so.

The trouble is for far too many it the even grimier kettle of ukipuk calling the pot for being discoloured.

But I do agree with you certain people who have done worse just move on. But it serves him right for not being a member of the conservative party UK because then not only would he have been moved on but take a step up the ladder and been in line for New year's Honours beyond that. I suppose it's not just who you know but who agrees with you.

 

[Dave T]

20 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I sincerely hope that in time Argyle reconsiders this decision. It is the wrong one. Not just because my support for the wolfpack and my hope for their success but regardless. It is the wrong one. 

We, as a sport, need to offer a pathway for redemption. Too often we act as this parallel system of justice, moralising and excluding as if we can somehow hold ourselves to a high standard than the society we mirror. We can't, we just chase our tail and expose our hypocrisy. 

We have within our game owners who have challenged fans to a fight, we have players who have taken recreational and performance enhancing drugs, we have drink drivers, adulterers, gamblers, those guilty of homophobic and racist words and no doubt actions. We can't solve these problems and casting people out who make errors achieves nothing. 

All we can do is offer a pathway to redemption, and where we are successful we don't just mirror society, we improve it. Nobody gains by Argyle stepping down, we all lose a voice and driver of rugby league. Had we looked at this as a teaching moment. A moment to learn and change and create restitution we would have all gained. 

For the 2nd time, in two days, I agree 100%.

I was speaking to my wife earlier about this, who works for a charity for ethnic minority women, and her view was this approach is not helpful and getting involved with these communities via charities etc is the way to go.

We should never really be about throwing people on the scrap heap or showing that mistakes will not be tolerated. That is a dangerous message imho.

[The Great Dane]

39 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

It clearly did hurt somebody, as the target of the "joke" had made clear in his statements.

People telling Jose how he should feel about the incident (and the subtext from many seems to be 'stop making such a fuss') just makes it worse.

Its for him to tell us, not for you to decide whether it's serious or not. 

You cannot and should not have laws or even principles where whether or not somebody is a victim is totally subjective and up to them, not only is that asininely stupid for lots of obvious reasons that I shouldn't need to go through, but mainly because it leads down a road that can only lead to extreme authoritarianism (where people in government are given the power to decide what is and isn't offensive and what the punishment for causing offence should be), but it's also extremely easy to abuse for obvious reasons.

Yet that is where we are.

Also I'm not telling Jose how to feel about it, he can feel bad about it all he likes, however him feeling bad about and not liking it doesn't mean that anything can be or should be done about the "incident".

[Damien]

17 minutes ago, RP London said:

This isnt helped by the RFL sitting on the complaint by the looks of it. I cannot imagine that an investigation would have concluded by asking him to resign. 

Weeks ago we could have had an rfl disciplinary coming out saying he has been fined $x and told to attend a course etc and most people would have been happy. But the way its been handled by the governing body leaving Jose with no other choice but to make it public has meant argyle has no choice but to decide his own punishment. He then has to make sure its severe otherwise he cheapens still the apology and looks as though he doesn't understand. So here we are. 

Jose had no choice thanks to rfl inactivity 

Argyle has reacted the only way he could

The RFL should have dealt with this as soon as Jose made the complaint and we wouldn't be here... got to wonder what the governing body actually does during the week!!!!

This is my main concern too. If this had been promptly dealt with at the time Jose would have been listened to with proper support offered, action taken and hopefully would have been satisfied with the outcome. Argyle would also still be in his role and would have been suitably punished at the time. Poor governance and a lack of action by the RFL has let down everyone in this.

[Toby Chopra]

14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I sincerely hope that in time Argyle reconsiders this decision. It is the wrong one. Not just because my support for the wolfpack and my hope for their success but regardless. It is the wrong one. 

We, as a sport, need to offer a pathway for redemption. Too often we act as this parallel system of justice, moralising and excluding as if we can somehow hold ourselves to a high standard than the society we mirror. We can't, we just chase our tail and expose our hypocrisy. 

We have within our game owners who have challenged fans to a fight, we have players who have taken recreational and performance enhancing drugs, we have drink drivers, adulterers, gamblers, those guilty of homophobic and racist words and no doubt actions. We can't solve these problems and casting people out who make errors achieves nothing. 

All we can do is offer a pathway to redemption, and where we are successful we don't just mirror society, we improve it. Nobody gains by Argyle stepping down, we all lose a voice and driver of rugby league. Had we looked at this as a teaching moment. A moment to learn and change and create restitution we would have all gained. 

I actually think RL does gain by Argyle stepping down. It sets a standard that as a sport, we will no longer tolerate the casual racism that pervades it (and is evidenced by so many wanting to downplay this) 

And yes, of course, other sports and society at large have this problem massively too, but rugby league can only be responsible for its own conduct, and should make its own judgement on what it thinks is right. 

I might also speculate, that Argyle's decision had very little to do with pressure coming from UK rugby league power brokers - the RFL and the club chairman are bankrupt when it comes to moral authority - but more with how it would reflect in its home market. 

In a city like Toronto, in a country like Canada, with the sort of fans they are targeting, this sort or casual racism will not be tolerated at all. The damage to the Wolfpack's brand is potentially immense.

The promise of the Wolfpack is that it takes British rugby league into markets that dwarf anything our domestic game can offer, but that means you're subject to much greater scrutiny and attention. In that context, it's a proportionate response. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Damien said:

This is my main concern too. If this had been promptly dealt with at the time Jose would have been listened to with proper support offered, action taken and hopefully would have been satisfied with the outcome. Argyle would also still be in his role and would have been suitably punished at the time. Poor governance and a lack of action by the RFL has let down everyone in this.

Precisely. You just know if this was Rugby Union or Cricket the governing body would have dealt with it behind closed doors in private so neither party had to come out on social media. Indeed they almost certainly have to deal with much "worse" cases of this type in those sports - arguably there's more cases of things being brushed under the carpet too in those sports.

Why in RL do we hang all our laundry out to dry in public I don't know. This really is a case of the RFL failing to get a grip of what a lot of people will see as a largely innocuous if totally hamfisted situation and now they have lost control of it. 

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I actually think RL does gain by Argyle stepping down. It sets a standard that as a sport, we will no longer tolerate the casual racism that pervades it (and is evidenced by so many wanting to downplay this) 

No it doesn't at all. The sport set the standard of doing nothing and hoping that it would go away. Argyle set his own self administered punishment when his apology wasn't deemed sufficient.

[sweaty craiq]

I await the head that will roll out of the RFL door, someone in a high place has again shown great incompetence and must go.