Which clubs are most at risk of losing their licences?

[winnyason]

As a aussie looking in, to me a cumbria superleague franchise is a must it is a heartland area, no doubt wakefield have to go they ###### about the stadium. Quins have big question marks but will stay as will crusaders, catalans are safe given there decent crowds and stadium upgrade.

Widnes will no doubt replace wakefield, but will a 2nd side drop could only think castleford or the crusaders.

[Lobbygobbler]

I sympathise not. I just don't like illogical arguments that have been proven so time and time again.

You just spouting rubbish again.

Define good crowds?

2003 (when they moved back to Odsal) was 7 years ago, not 10. Not that that was the last time they got "good crowds".

Let's have a look since they moved back to Odsal...

2003 - 14,936 (best in SL)

2004 - 13,500 (2nd best)

2005 - 13,367 (3rd best)

2006 - 11,263 (3rd best)

2007 - 12,084 (4th best)

2008 - 10,287 (5th best)

2009 - 9,677 (5th best)

2010 - 8,642 (6th best)

They still posted five-figure crowds 2 years ago, which I would consider the benchmark for "good crowds".

They're still in the top 6 of SL crowd averages despite a HUGE drop in attendances over the last 7 years. So if they have poor crowds, then most of SL is in a worse state.

That doesn't answer the question. How is Odsal "much WORSE" than the two grounds I mentioned?

"I would rather watch RL in these grounds" isn't an answer. Why would you?

So Bradford have to get 20k crowds (more than any SL club has achieved on more than 3 occasions in a single season)? That's a ridiculous benchmark for a poor argument.

Okay - in a nutshell here's why it is worst:

1/ Very little cover proportional to the amount of terracing, i.e. most folk get wet if it rains.

2/ Terracing and stands are too far away from the pitch for a proper RL viewing, thus losing atmosphere (especially for the TV viewing experience). This is the biggest issue I have with Odsal

3/ The other end of the pitch is a complete joke with the makeshift blob of a building (Hwy didn't they build a stand? Did they think they would be on the move when that thing was built?)

By the way your stats say it all. The general downwards trend is really alarming. Wonder what it will be this year

[Amber Avenger]

Okay - in a nutshell here's why it is worst:

1/ Very little cover proportional to the amount of terracing, i.e. most folk get wet if it rains.

2/ Terracing and stands are too far away from the pitch for a proper RL viewing, thus losing atmosphere (especially for the TV viewing experience). This is the biggest issue I have with Odsal

3/ The other end of the pitch is a complete joke with the makeshift blob of a building (Hwy didn't they build a stand? Did they think they would be on the move when that thing was built?)

By the way your stats say it all. The general downwards trend is really alarming. Wonder what it will be this year

Point 1, is fair enough. Points 2 and 3 are your opinion, and whilst valid in that sense (you were asked for it after all) - it is just that and certainly not enough for the RFL to give Bradford a "warning", because such criterion do not and will not ever exist judging by the sheer lack of people who are rushing into support you on this issue - especially the distance from the pitch/atmosphere thing.

As for "the blob" - it was always supposed to be mid-term temporary whilst they did up the stadium(!). The reason it is that instead of a stand is because it is there purely for hospitality reasons - the existing hospitality pre-2000 was disgraceful by all accounts and was preventing the club from attracting sponsors. If you ever have the chance to go inside the Coral Stand,it is actually impressive despite the outside, and I suspect it's paid for itself numerous times over. Ironically for you, the hospitality stand is most likely in Bradford's favour when it comes to juding the stadium!

Edited July 29, 2010 by Amber Avenger

[nath155]

what is really interesting to see is how everyone is having ago at wakefield come this time of year because if wakefield can prove there stadium is on the way wouldnt they get a grade B licence as they have the extra tick for stadium and the extra tick for contribution to the compertion expeshilly if they make it into the top 8 this year.

i love how everyones having ago at how bad they are when if im not mistaken they finished 5th last season. there accadamy u18s team won the under18s compertion showing there youth system is working and if you check wakefield are second on the list of bringing through you youngsters into superleague i believe tied with leeds and behind quins.

wakefield are a team that everyone just likes to put down they average 550 people on average less than cas not really they average more than crusaders, quins and salford. but what nobody looks at is how many people wakefield take to away games wakefield average away attendence is as good as wigan and leeds and far above teams like castleford and salford yet everyone will still have a go at wakie.

if they get this stadium on the move by spring then i think they will be given a licence for the next 3 years and tbh deserve it

[Dave T]

and if you check wakefield are second on the list of bringing through you youngsters into superleague i believe tied with leeds and behind quins.

Which list is this? I would like to see the list, and if it puts Wakefield above the likes of Saints and Wigan, then fair play.

Also, are Quins really top?

[nath155]

yeah quins are top and i will find the list and post it wakefield have played more players from there youth system than saints and wigan in the in the past 3 season i will find the list for you. but this is actually a fact i think its 14 players quin and wakie have 12 with leeds. i can proberly name them kyle bibb jay pitts ( now at leeds) arron murphy, dale morton, kieron hyde techniqually via bradford that one but still got put into youth system then given a chance, dale fergurson, cain southernwood, luke george, ben gledhill, james davey, luke blake, josh griffen and off the top of my head that all i can think off but hyde and gledhill i dont think will be on that list.

players just coming through now like matty wilde and kyle trout could become good players

Edited July 29, 2010 by nath155

[The Future is League]

cas only had 4 overseas players playing against cru's not that it matters just thought id stat the fact

the point i am making is that for a heartland club to field 11 overseas players is dire. there can't have been much junior development there over the years.

when you consider the amout of British players the Quins had playing last weekend it shows to me that it can be done. for too many years in this country some clubs have only played lip service to junior development, and have gone for the easy option of overseas players.

[Lee]

what is really interesting to see is how everyone is having ago at wakefield come this time of year because if wakefield can prove there stadium is on the way wouldnt they get a grade B licence as they have the extra tick for stadium and the extra tick for contribution to the compertion expeshilly if they make it into the top 8 this year.

If

i love how everyones having ago at how bad they are when if im not mistaken they finished 5th last season. there accadamy u18s team won the under18s compertion showing there youth system is working and if you check wakefield are second on the list of bringing through you youngsters into superleague i believe tied with leeds and behind quins.

Having a good group one season doesnt define a successful youth structure, 6th this year so far i believe

wakefield are a team that everyone just likes to put down they average 550 people on average less than cas not really they average more than crusaders, quins and salford. but what nobody looks at is how many people wakefield take to away games wakefield average away attendence is as good as wigan and leeds and far above teams like castleford and salford yet everyone will still have a go at wakie.

Wakefields away support is on a par with ours, and thats ###### all to shout about

As good as Leeds and Wigans

[nath155]

averages dont lie just check them up for your self if you like.

and 6th if im not mistaken is in the playoffs which is where they want to be id want to be and yeah but they signed 8 of the youngsters to profesional contracts if im not mistaken which is only good for the game

wakefield like cas have been given 2m towards at the moment hopefully that can get the ball rolling tpwards the new stadium.

[Agbrigg]

what is really interesting to see is how everyone is having ago at wakefield come this time of year because if wakefield can prove there stadium is on the way wouldnt they get a grade B licence as they have the extra tick for stadium and the extra tick for contribution to the compertion expeshilly if they make it into the top 8 this year.

i love how everyones having ago at how bad they are when if im not mistaken they finished 5th last season. there accadamy u18s team won the under18s compertion showing there youth system is working and if you check wakefield are second on the list of bringing through you youngsters into superleague i believe tied with leeds and behind quins.

wakefield are a team that everyone just likes to put down they average 550 people on average less than cas not really they average more than crusaders, quins and salford. but what nobody looks at is how many people wakefield take to away games wakefield average away attendence is as good as wigan and leeds and far above teams like castleford and salford yet everyone will still have a go at wakie.

if they get this stadium on the move by spring then i think they will be given a licence for the next 3 years and tbh deserve it

You forgot to mention something else, 'Getting rid of wakefield from SL' topics are the most popular on these forums.

[The Parksider]

I'd forgotten about the 20 mile qualification, but if DH pulls out would the RFL fund us? I can just imagine the reaction if they did!

The RFL wouldn't fund you direct but may do via SKY money. That's a big decision that if it has to be made should not be made with any reference to the possible "reaction". The RFL are there to do the best for the game itself and the pro game retreating to the M62 probably isn't that.

[nath155]

You forgot to mention something else, 'Getting rid of wakefield from SL' topics are the most popular on these forums.

but got to look at the positives least wakefield are what everyones talking about

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Okay - in a nutshell here's why it is worst:

Which, again, wasn't my question. the question was why is Belle Vue and The Willows better? I'll explain my point as I go through yours...

1/ Very little cover proportional to the amount of terracing, i.e. most folk get wet if it rains.

Same as at Belle Vue, and to some extent The Willows (the away stand only has cover for the seats IIRC, not the terrace in front of it).

And, on top of this, if folks were bothered about getting wet, then there is probably enough seating to cover 3/4 of their average crowd this year at Odsal. Could the same be done at Belle Vue? Not a chance.

2/ Terracing and stands are too far away from the pitch for a proper RL viewing, thus losing atmosphere (especially for the TV viewing experience). This is the biggest issue I have with Odsal

As opposed to Belle Vue, which has awful terracing at pitch-side. If you're at the front, you're actually below pitch level. The terracing isn't steep enough, so you can't really see very well above the people in front of you.

I'd rather be too far away and be able to see the whole pitch than too low down and see nothing.

3/ The other end of the pitch is a complete joke with the makeshift blob of a building (Hwy didn't they build a stand? Did they think they would be on the move when that thing was built?)

As opposed to Belle Vue's block of flats? Or The Willows' club house? They make that "blob" look like Buckingham Palace!

By the way your stats say it all. The general downwards trend is really alarming. Wonder what it will be this year

My stats do say it all. Your points before about their crowds only being good a decade ago were way off.

I agree about the dip being alarming though. I've started threads about it in the past and been told to shush by Bradford fans in the past. But then again, I'm a Bradford Sympathiser apparently...

So, to sum up... every point you made can be attributed to Belle Vue and the Willows. And in fact, they're probably worse at those places...

[Wellsy4HullFC]

If

Having a good group one season doesnt define a successful youth structure, 6th this year so far i believe

Wakefields away support is on a par with ours, and thats ###### all to shout about

As good as Leeds and Wigans

Exactly what I was thinking. If it's not an "if something happens", it's just a lie!

Wakefield's away support being as good as Leeds' and Wigan's is laughable! They don't give out franchises for that, anyway.

And as for youth development... how many of these young players have gone on to be SL regulars at Wakefield? 11 overseas players this last weekend. If they were that good, surely they'd figure more in your squad?

[Agbrigg]

... how many of these young players have gone on to be SL regulars at Wakefield? 11 overseas players this last weekend. If they were that good, surely they'd figure more in your squad?

Seriously the Wakey reserves bet Cas away on Sunday, bet Wigan on wednesday then backed up against saints at the weekend only loosing 16.18.

Many people ask the same question but Mr Kear decides otherwise.

[The Parksider]

Having a good group one season doesnt define a successful youth structure, 6th this year so far i believe

That's an excellent point.

If your academy never gets above half way but annually manages a top class player or two it will be a roaring success.

What defines a successful academy is having an academy that is part of a structure above and below it that tries to develop the junior game and offer the best kids a path to the senior game.

So Widnes have a succesful academy and so do Wakefield - box ticked. Harping on about them winning matches doesn't add to the achievement.

When clubs move in on the best players like Leeds move in on Wakey's best juniors, and like clubs pick off Widnes's best whilst they are in the NL's then it shows that it's Ok having an academy but the main thing for a club is to have the money to compete, and not just end up supplying other clubs.

For Widnes Mr. O'Connor is the key, for Wakefield their own ground. I hope it comes off and if it does I reckon it'll be packed when Leeds come to the city!

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Come on, Lobby. Where's the answer? Why is Belle Vue and The Willows better? What is it about these two grounds that make them better than Odsal? They being a rectangular-shape doesn't count!

[widnesvikings]

Contrary to popular belief Widnes don

[Dave T]

Contrary to popular belief Widnes don

[Maximus Decimus]

The team wanting to come into SL will probably have to offer something different to the other licences, which would put Barrow at the top of the list.

This is just completely untrue and not what licensing is supposed to be about.

Licensing is about picking the best 14 clubs at that point, not about adding something to Super League. This comes from the fact that it is a grossly unfair system. You could place Widnes, Barrow and Halifax in Super League in place of Salford, Cas and Wakey and they could be forever excluded as they would add nothing new to Super League.

[thirteenthman]

I seem to remember last year when Crusaders announced they were going to Wrexham, there was a huge outcry from Widnes fans about it. The local MP Derek Branch (or something like that) even got in on the act complaining that a team in Wrexham would take fans and sponsors away from Widnes. Apparently Wrexham is virtually a suburb of Widnes, with only Chester in between them. Of course it didn't make much difference as the 2 teams are in different divisions.

Surely, if Widnes apply for a Super League licence, the Crusaders would be well within their rights to complain about another team in SL so close to themselves. It would surely be unfair on an expansion team trying to develop its own sponsor and fan base. If it wasn't for the Widnes fans bringing this to the attention of the world no one would've noticed. So on geographic grounds, Widnes should not be allowed in Super League.

As no-one else from the Championship qualifies to apply for a licence, I'd say Wakefield, Castleford and Salford fans can breathe easy. Nowt to worry about lads.

[mick wilson]

I seem to remember last year when Crusaders announced they were going to Wrexham, there was a huge outcry from Widnes fans about it. The local MP Derek Branch (or something like that) even got in on the act complaining that a team in Wrexham would take fans and sponsors away from Widnes. Apparently Wrexham is virtually a suburb of Widnes, with only Chester in between them. Of course it didn't make much difference as the 2 teams are in different divisions.

Surely, if Widnes apply for a Super League licence, the Crusaders would be well within their rights to complain about another team in SL so close to themselves. It would surely be unfair on an expansion team trying to develop its own sponsor and fan base. If it wasn't for the Widnes fans bringing this to the attention of the world no one would've noticed. So on geographic grounds, Widnes should not be allowed in Super League.

Widnes will stiffle the expansion of the game and be grossly unfair to the Crusaders

[Brigg Rover]

I seem to remember last year when Crusaders announced they were going to Wrexham, there was a huge outcry from Widnes fans about it. The local MP Derek Branch (or something like that) even got in on the act complaining that a team in Wrexham would take fans and sponsors away from Widnes. Apparently Wrexham is virtually a suburb of Widnes, with only Chester in between them. Of course it didn't make much difference as the 2 teams are in different divisions.

Surely, if Widnes apply for a Super League licence, the Crusaders would be well within their rights to complain about another team in SL so close to themselves. It would surely be unfair on an expansion team trying to develop its own sponsor and fan base. If it wasn't for the Widnes fans bringing this to the attention of the world no one would've noticed. So on geographic grounds, Widnes should not be allowed in Super League.

As no-one else from the Championship qualifies to apply for a licence, I'd say Wakefield, Castleford and Salford fans can breathe easy. Nowt to worry about lads.

That would be very unfair on Widnes.

But would also be incredibly hilarious to see some of their fans on here having heart attacks!

[thirteenthman]

That would be very unfair on Widnes.

But would also be incredibly hilarious to see some of their fans on here having heart attacks!

Oh, yeah. Never thought of that

[Maximus Decimus]

Widnes will stiffle the expansion of the game and be grossly unfair to the Crusaders

Just because you use smiley faces doesn't stop this being one of those attacks on Widnes that other posters have spoke of.

You're a man obsessed.