The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[OzWelsh]

Moneyball is my favourite film; there are only 29 full-time MLB teams in the US, with all the players that want to play in it and the money they receive.  How can we justify 14 full-time teams in SL?  We don't have enough very good players.  The Championship should be made more high profile and winning it should be quite an achievement.  Yes I would prefer 12 teams in SL but the reality of the situation seems to be that 10 is the right number.  Less quantity more quality.  Add an early season cup competition. 

 

The 10 teams could be Wigan, Leeds, Warrington, Hull FC, Catalan Dragons, Hull KR, Bradford, Saints, Salford, Huddersfield

[jpmc]

Anyone who thinks away support is irrelevant is a fool.

Anyone who thinks clubs dont factor in away support into there season budget is a fool.

Huddersfield wouldn't be here without away support,Wigans average would be down quite a lot without saints and wire.

It could quite easily be worth £200k a season

[gingerjon]

Ask the Cas or Wakey CEO which home fixture they'd prefer...Catalan or Fev? It's a no brainer

 

They'd prefer the one that brings in the greatest TV revenue.

[Terry Mullaney]

Anyone who thinks away support is irrelevant is a fool.Anyone who thinks clubs dont factor in away support into there season budget is a fool.Huddersfield wouldn't be here without away support,Wigans average would be down quite a lot without saints and wire.It could quite easily be worth £200k a season

You beat me to it jpmc. Budgets and projections are worked out based partly on a club's average attendance the previous season, a fair proportion of whom are away fans. It's not rocket science

[Terry Mullaney]

They'd prefer the one that brings in the greatest TV revenue.

Not with you on this. What factual difference in TV revenue would there be that you are so sure about.

[jpmc]

They'd prefer the one that brings in the greatest TV revenue.

Naturally but i cant believe swapping one northern clubs for another would alter the tv revenue,nor would losing catalan.

Increasing clubs from France or other parts of the UK might do

Edited January 7, 2014 by jpmc

[Griff]

You beat me to it jpmc. Budgets and projections are worked out based partly on a club's average attendance the previous season, a fair proportion of whom are away fans. It's not rocket science

 

Funnily enough, I was talking to someone in Fev about this only yesterday.  Budgets need to be set based on your minimum crowd level so that everything above that is a positive.   Clubs tend to set their projections too optimistically and then find haven't enough money.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

1. St Helens Recreation were full league members and were located in ST Helens as the Pilkington glass works team.

2. Featherstone Rovers were admitted to the league in the 1920's. I am sure you will leap to correct me if I am wrong. Therefore, at the time of any promotions from CC1 for example to the Championship they were members of the league structure.

Admitted? Surely they should have been promoted and another club relegated: it's only fair and just. How was the decision taken? In a smoke filled room?

 

Your mention of Pilkington recs doesn't seem to answer my question.

[jpmc]

Funnily enough, I was talking to someone in Fev about this only yesterday.  Budgets need to be set based on your minimum crowd level so that everything above that is a positive.   Clubs tend to set their projections too optimistically and then find haven't enough money.

I agree thats the safest way of going about it but FEVs average was 2400 this season,if they had been promoted do you think they would have worked off that average for the coming season?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Anyone who thinks away support is irrelevant is a fool.

Anyone who thinks clubs dont factor in away support into there season budget is a fool.

Huddersfield wouldn't be here without away support,Wigans average would be down quite a lot without saints and wire.

It could quite easily be worth £200k a season

Factoring it in whatever that means is one thing

Depending on it is another

 

It also works the other way. One of the reasons behind the big clubs forming their own super league in that late eighties was the debilitating effect of subsidising some clubs who in turn didn't bring many away supporters in turn. Check out the lowest attendances for teams like leeds and wigan during the pre sl era.

 

The only thing a club can realistically and justifiably depend on is its own support base. Away support is a bonus.

 

Also big games between big clubs attract neutrals.

[Dave T]

What Catalan attract at home is of no financial benefit to the 'heartland' SL clubs is it? Ask the Cas or Wakey CEO which home fixture they'd prefer...Catalan or Fev? It's a no brainer

And this is why the game should not be run by the CEO's.

 

Thaksfully many people see the bigger picture.

[jpmc]

Factoring it in whatever that means is one thing

Depending on it is another

 

It also works the other way. One of the reasons behind the big clubs forming their own super league in that late eighties was the debilitating effect of subsidising some clubs who in turn didn't bring many away supporters in turn. Check out the lowest attendances for teams like leeds and wigan during the pre sl era.

 

The only thing a club can realistically and justifiably depend on is its own support base. Away support is a bonus.

 

Also big games between big clubs attract neutrals.

Surely the only home support you can rely on are season ticket holders?

[Griff]

I agree thats the safest way of going about it but FEVs average was 2400 this season,if they had been promoted do you think they would have worked off that average for the coming season?

 

OK - minimum expected crowd level then.  They shouldn't be working off their expected average crowd.

 

There are sometimes exceptional circumstances but the principle stands.

 

Few clubs get promoted - even in the days when promotion and relegation was automatic.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Griff

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Surely the only home support you can rely on are season ticket holders?

Clubs should be able reasonably gauge their home support

Especially these days with data bases and so on

[Terry Mullaney]

OK - minimum expected crowd level then.  They shouldn't be working off their expected average crowd.

 

There are sometimes exceptional circumstances but the principle stands.

 

Few clubs get promoted - even in the days when promotion and relegation was automatic.

I did say worked out partly on their previous seasons' average Griff. To err on the side of caution goes without saying. Whatever the figure arrived at will include away support, is the point I was trying to make

[yipyee]

And the cost of a coach for most teams for a visit to Leigh compared to air fare to Perpignan and a hotel for 30 people for at a day or two is much different. Which do you think is he cheaper for those paying the bills.?

 

Firstly how long do they stay in a hotel? If traveling on ryanair and staying in a travelodge bunking up 15 rooms at 20 a room is 300 quid flights 60 quid return x 30 1800 quid? plus a 500 quid coach?

Therefore 2 nights 600 plus 1800 plus 500 is 2900.....take that off the extra 100000 made from the return homeleg and a nice profit of 97100 per game! 

 

oh looking at that they may be able to afford to pre-pick their seats and extra leg room?

If Thatto Heath apply and are admitted into the RFL's pro levels, then, should they win promotion, they should be promoted. Keighley applied as did Featherstone and both joined the pro leagues.

 

So you are therefore stating that you are a fan of licensing and a club should 'apply' to be promoted?

 

do you not find it a travesty that some smoking fellas in a backroom will decide Thatto heaths fate? 

 

As you say they won promotion fair and square?!?!?!!?

 

I think you are a closet fan of licensing and if Keighley were in the SL you would be shouting from the roof tops to pull up the drawbridge!

 

Your latest comments on Heath proves this!

[l'angelo mysterioso]

What Catalan attract at home is of no financial benefit to the 'heartland' SL clubs is it? Ask the Cas or Wakey CEO which home fixture they'd prefer...Catalan or Fev? It's a no brainer

It's of great benefit to the game of rugby league : see posts passim where this has been explained.

 

By the way games between your club and Wakefield don't exactly have a history of them hanging from the rafters

 

On the other hand lets keep it nice and parochial and narrow minded and self interested. That should take the game forward.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

And this is why the game should not be run by the CEO's.

 

Thaksfully many people see the bigger picture.

Sadly there are those who don't want there to be a bigger picture

[Terry Mullaney]

And this is why the game should not be run by the CEO's.

Thaksfully many people see the bigger picture.

I'm not implying that Fev would be a better bet than Catalan for the image of SL. My point is the constant inference on here that Rovers, Fax and Leigh would bring no value to the competition is clearly wrong. In terms of away support any single one of them would provide many more than the sum total of Catalan, London and Toulouse put together. As for the CEO's? They are charged with the responsibility of paying the bills and keeping their respective clubs afloat and judging by the constant struggles I'd say they need every penny they can lay their hands on. Edited January 7, 2014 by Terry Mullaney

[Terry Mullaney]

It's of great benefit to the game of rugby league : see posts passim where this has been explained.

 

By the way games between your club and Wakefield don't exactly have a history of them hanging from the rafters

 

On the other hand lets keep it nice and parochial and narrow minded and self interested. That should take the game forward.

Change the record Chris for God's sake

[yipyee]

What Catalan attract at home is of no financial benefit to the 'heartland' SL clubs is it? Ask the Cas or Wakey CEO which home fixture they'd prefer...Catalan or Fev? It's a no brainer

 

Catalan dont need away fans, neither do Leeds, Saints, Warrington, Hull, Wigan...

 

If clubs need away fans to operate then they are in a league higher than they should be!

 

Dont get me wrong away fans cash will add nicely to the coffers.....but the clubs i mentioned would still break even paying full cap if away fans boycotted their grounds!

 

Also the travelling team will get a cut of the fans they take!

 

Their are a second list with rich chairmen who are happy to make up the short comings.....

 

If Cas need away fans just to pay the bills this adds strength to the argument for a ten team top division!?!

 

How do hull know how many fans HKR will bring?

 

I bet saints thought they would get a full house vs Wigan and it was only around 14K (their average)......

 

Catalan can survive without being 'propped up' by away support....they are therefore worth their weight in gold!

 

13 clubs who can average the same or more than catalan (remember with v. little away support) and the SL would be a healthy place indeed!

Edited January 7, 2014 by yipyee

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Change the record Chris for God's sake

Open your mind and put your own self interest to one side for God's sake

 

 

Edit

Anyway that's a bit rich coming from you

Edited January 7, 2014 by l'angelo mysterioso

[Griff]

I did say worked out partly on their previous seasons' average Griff. To err on the side of caution goes without saying. Whatever the figure arrived at will include away support, is the point I was trying to make

Fair enough, Terry. But I still say you shouldn't work on the average - even if you don't change divisions.  And that's the point I was making, really - the average is too high a figure.

[Terry Mullaney]

Open your mind and put your own self interest to one side for God's sake

Aye ok Chris

[GIANTSTRIDES]

At long last someone is actually wearing his heart on his sleeve and venting his feelings, not may I add feelings for the game as a whole, but by trying to protect what they consider is best for their own club, i.e. if they are in SL and receiving the benefits that go along with it, or they are a club on the fringes and would like to be part of SL.

 

Mr. Strides expresses that he wants the SL Chairmen to close ranks, and yes ring fence SL in as much as break away from the RL, because that will be the only scenario open to them if they do not agree with any proposed restructuring.

 

What would that do for the game globally, Imagine the England/GB International Team being made up of players from other than SL clubs, this is what would happen as the SL players would not be part of  the GBRL or RLIF, Infact this may suit Sky as they proved this year they have no interest in International RL.

 

Mr. Strides, in other posts I have seen you reference your longevity of being a Fartown/Giants supporter through very thin times, when I presume you longed for a return to former glories. Please read through your post again and rewind back 10 years ago, it does not take much imagination to put Huddersfield in place as your example as one of those clubs with ambition and hope.

 

In fact I don’t ever think I have come across a more NIMBY statement of self protection/gratification.

 

We are what we are being RL fans, we all care for the game but parochialism is our main criteria, which (quite rightly) comes across loud and clear with Messer’s Yipyee and Mysterioso’s backs to the wall defence of Bradford, and Mr Keighley’s desire to have the opportunity to see the best players at a revamped Cougar Park.

 

Being parochial is for me the main reason that Mr Parksider’s campaign for merger’s would not work, not in the short term at least, I would consider that the fans of the club that is being asked to relocate to what is historically the “best of enemies” would stay away in their droves, does any one imagine that if say Bradford were asked to go to Headingley there would be attendances in the region of 21K from the home support only, I doubt it, and even then that would represent a loss of paying public from the average attendances of each club, and for what it's worth I feel this would be the same whether in Cheshire or Calder or Hull or wherever.

 

The decision being made this month is massive in terms of how will the SL Chairman take it, if they go along with Mr. Strides suggestion and believe themselves to be bigger than the game itself, then we will have some very interesting times ahead.    

 

 

Well thanks for the responce mate, You have got it a bit wrong here and there, If you had read any more of my posts you would have seen , I have never championed my own club over another , I have repeatedly said i know exactly where we would be without KD. 

 

I have also always stressed It makes no difference whatever to me who the clubs are in Super league, and it doesn't. If the Giants benefacter wanked away tommorrow and we tumbled down the League to finish in the lowest  league , I would still watch Fartown  ( as i always have ) but i can tell you straight out it would not stop me wanting to watch SL on TV played to the highest standards it can be.  I don't want to switch on and watch Leeds or Saints  stick 60 points on Leigh or whoever every week, And don't tell me that it wont happen cause it happened to my team for 4 years, And that was a team with serious money behind them.

 

The reason i want the SL  chairmen to make a strong stand, Is becuse i have a lot more faith in them than i do in the RFL, as far as i can see The RFL has been sat on it's thumbs long enough, Dreaming up fancyful systems ,that replace other half tried systems, each one  claimed to be what is going to change the game to what it used to be, and bring back Fans in Thousands.

 

It's all a Dream, They may bring it in , But if they have any thoughts about it Revitalising the game , at all the clubs who are barely existing, and somehow take us back to the 50s while still being Magically in 2014, then it is a masive dream, There is not one thing other than an idea, That says one extra penny will be generated  in the game as a whole. There may well be a few quid in it for a few certain clubs , but it will inevitably come from other clubs.

 

Why do people not grasp the facts, Super league crowds have increased , CC are going backwards ,Sky don't want to know them, There own fans dont want to know them ( again i know the feeling ) Thats been happening for a long time now. A new format is going to put all this right in no time at all, 

 

Suddenly Sheffield are going to become a big club because they are going to be playing the likes of Wigan a few times, They beat Wigan at wembley years ago ,and pushed on to where exactly.

 

Gary , Yes i have supported Fartown for 60 years, some of those years worse that you want to know,  Before KD came along Huddersfield would never  ever have got to the top clubs in the game again, I believe that to be a fact, but i still watched them and would have done till they disapeared , But  i would still have " and did" watch all the top clubs on TV, Just because the Giants were not there didn't make the Leeds ,Bulls games any less enjoyable on TV.

 

You can believe me or otherwise as you see fit, but i feel the same now, I don't want anything to dillute the Elite game in any way, It's the flagship comp and It's what will keep the game alive at worst, and take it forward at best

 

I don't want to hold back any club Fev Fax , Leigh, Sheffield (I don't care who the Super league clubs are) But i want them to get to the same level before they go in, Rather than reduce the Elite level to accomodate them, ( which i think is a danger ) becuse anyone who thinks that a CC without either a huge amount of money ( could happen ) Or a huge crowd every week ( won't happen ) will be able to compete with  multy million clubs ,i would say are Dreamers.

 

I don't know what the decision will be any more than anyone else, I just hope that the SL chairmen make a strong case for keeping SL " Super", As far as i can see  ( world Cups apart ) it is the only bit of Rugby League anyone is interested in commecially, the main money generator, The providor of by far the majority of junior players, What people buy Dishes to watch.

 

What is to be gained by reducing the quality , or even risking it , Just to show a world ( who by and large don't give diddly  about League ) how fair we are , to all the smaller clubs whose fans are deserting them, because they dont get to play clubs who will just thrash them.

 

Perhaps my way may be best. I go to watch my club at whatever level it's playing (Years of at Bottom ) and i get to watch the elite teams on TV.