A low salary cap is impacting on our quality

[John Fisher]

Saints were well outclassed by a young roosters team and my feelings are that the salary cap is just to low to attract real quality with a few exceptions.

We keep the cap artificially low to protect the weakest but that also keeps our great teams average also.

Let's see if Wigan youngsters can compete tonight

So where s this "real quality" going to come from? Multi-talented sports people will choose Football (Association) over anything else because of the money to be made and given the choice would probably pick Union over League partly because they will probably earn more money, but also because of the bigger profile both Nationally and Internationally.

[LeeF]

I'm all for increasing the cap on a club by club basis on the proviso that any club who requests an increase commits to spending double the increase on youth programmes including the local community game. Anything else is just paying the same players more money for no return.

I would also add genuine Development Officiers if they want to spend over say the £1.8m basic. Any increased limit being say no more than 50% of genuine income

In addition to paying the same layers more you would also see more average overseas players playing

Another idea is to tie in any extra spend or central fund distribution to the number of genuinely home developed players you play in first team games

It's not easy to solve but is solvable with a bit of thought and a lot of hard work

[LeeF]

You cannot run a vibrant and expanding sport on survival of the weakest methodology. The sport needs more cash, its up to the clubs and the RFL to get that cash, a good start would be an unlimited cap and RFL to run Academies from 14 up from central funds. replacing all bar Leeds and Wigan, possibly Saints/Wire/Hull also. Make the game sexy with some huge signings, a cap set at the Sky funding is very poor and shows little ambition

Which vast pot of central funds are these?

[LordCharles]

Title of Thread : A low salary cap is impacting on our quality

 

The salary cap has nothing to do with the quality of player we produce, it does however impact on the players we attract or retain at the top level, i.e Super League.

[eal]

Super League collectively probably has the talent of three NRL teams. May as well just establish London, Manchester, and Liverpool NRL franchises and send the best players to the NRL.

[MattSantos]

Are you really surprised that the level of depth isn't there anymore?

Over the past few years steps have been taken to scale back the depth of players available for Super League.

Reserve Grade was ripped apart (yes it's sorta back this year), DR was introduced meaning instead of every club having a full squad, you would have 1.5 squads between 2 teams. Academy was cut back... its now just one grade (so not all clubss have an Academy side) and it's only one age bracket (use to be two).

Across all these changes possibly cut between 100-200 players from the production line.

Meanwhile in that same time, NRL has expanded its U16s and U18s competitions, forced all NRL teams to have an U20s side and of course built up its Reserve Grade competitions.

Now whilst some might say the steps taken in England were designed to sharpen the pyramid and focus on pushing only the most talented to the top, the cuts also have limited opportunities for those players who weren't the standouts at the Jnr level.

Look at Cam Smith and Jonathan Thurston. We all know their stories, overlooked by many junior representative teams, Thurston struggled to even get an NRL contract anywhere, yet thankfully for Australia there were systems for them to continue to play in until someone recognized their potential. There are plenty of others like that.

These players whilst might not always be superstars add depth, put pressure on the more talented players not to take their spots for granted and thus help raise the standard.

 

This.

[The Parksider]

Are you really surprised that the level of depth isn't there anymore?

Over the past few years steps have been taken to scale back the depth of players available for Super League.

Reserve Grade was ripped apart (yes it's sorta back this year), DR was introduced meaning instead of every club having a full squad, you would have 1.5 squads between 2 teams. Academy was cut back... its now just one grade (so not all clubss have an Academy side) and it's only one age bracket (use to be two).

Across all these changes possibly cut between 100-200 players from the production line.

 

But wasn't the argument that the Superleague clubs taking hundreds of players out of the junior and youth game was a big problem?

 

This (an interesting, informative and welcome view) sets out how the Superleague clubs have maybe put that right??

 

As for depth, we can have a very deep structure below SL first team at SL clubs but are we not talking quality here. That's what we want.

[JoneslessBishop]

A pretty depressing weekend. At interntional level, we have been inches away from the Auusies recently and beaten the Kiwis. When we are talking about a player pool of 20-30 players we can just about to compete.

However, when we get the the WCS series, which interrogates the player pool down to a deeper level to say 60-70 players, we don't look so good. However, it should be noted that due to the economics of SL V NRL, SL doesn't have access to c. 10 of our best players as NRL wages attract them down under.

But just becuase the NRL salary cap is 3-4 times bigger, doesn't mean the NRL teams should be 5-6 times better. The size of the salary cap down under means wages down there are inflated. I think you probably get much better value on £100k wages in SL than you do in the NRL.

For me, SL has got into a bit of a cartel situation in that because it's always the same big teams challenging at the top, they don't feel the need to spend aggressively against each other, and are happy to replace top players with talented rookies knowing that over a long season, they will have enough time to have develop to be strong at the business end of the season. However, they are not in that position at the start of the season.

In the NRL, all teams spend at cap and teams finishing in the lower half last season are frequently contenders the following season.

Whilst the dependency on youth in SL is good for the England team as it allows the likes of Watkins, Hardaker, Williams, Joe Burgess, etc flourish early, continual dependency on youth means we have little chance of competing with the Aussies at the start of the season. Whilst Sts, Wigan and Leeds were unlucky not to have Roby, Tomkins and McGuire fit, the likes of Knowles, Hampshire and Lilley are never going to cut it at WCS level yet. Whilst I wouldn't expect teams to have like-for-like replacements of the same quality and experience, there aren't enough experienced leaders and match winners across the squads.

To conclude, it's not so much the disparity in the salary cap, but the failure of all teams to spend it. When more are doing so, and the top teams have a real marquee addition the squad, we'll see youth developed at the right pace and not men against boys which was too often the case over the weekend.

The RFL have put their money where there mouth is re the England team, spending big on facilities like St Georges Park and hiring Wayne Bennett. About time the clubs opened the purse strings a little as well. This weekend they let their country down.

[iangidds]

The salary cap needs significantly increasing.Over the years it has not kept up with inflation while our competitors the NRL and the various union competitions have significantly increased theirs.

The standard of SL is on the slide and some top leadership is required to arrest this.

The farcical status of reserve teams at the moment is an example of the state our game is in.

The game needed to Aspire to Wigan not bring Wigan down to the rest, we have an ok competition but its shown to be well short of a good one! Many years ago I said we would end up with a Ford fiesta cup where the cars(teams) have the same engine etc etc and they go around the track at a similar speed ! Put these boys against the F1 boys and you can see the consequences!!

Lack of ambition and a bunch of cronies at the top earning far more than the stars , I cannot get that out of my mind!!!

[The Parksider]

For me, SL has got into a bit of a cartel situation in that because it's always the same big teams challenging at the top, they don't feel the need to spend aggressively against each other, and are happy to replace top players with talented rookies knowing that over a long season, they will have enough time to have develop to be strong at the business end of the season. However, they are not in that position at the start of the season.

The RFL have put their money where there mouth is re the England team, spending big on facilities like St Georges Park and hiring Wayne Bennett. About time the clubs opened the purse strings a little as well. This weekend they let their country down.

 

I think your Cartel idea is quite a good one.

 

I do not see that the top chairmen want to compete with the Australian Salary cap that is set to be double ours.

 

They can indeed hide behind the low cap and compete for all the domestic trophies, without causing each other to have to reach into their own pockets for a £Million or so every year.

 

Because that money isn't in these clubs businesses.

 

So really I suppose your calling for tight chairmen to stand down and give way to Chairman who will pull out the £Millions.

 

But like there are no big stars available to sign, there are very few rich chairmen wishing to sign them.

 

Except one. Who I suspect is allowed to spend more as long as he doesn't start taking the top players off the cartel.

 

Good thoughts JLB

[sweaty craiq]

If your weekly household bills are higher than your income your choices are get more income or spend less, spending less is not the sign of any prosperous business ie saving money does not make money. RL is seen as the budget sport, attracting budget sponsors with budget fans and a budget media deal. These traits are not consistent with the owners own business so why do they choose this way?

We have a highly watchable sport, not just to the converts, due to its speed, athleticism and simplicity - TV ratings compare very well against all sports except soccer. Mutual partnerships are needed to make our sport what it could be by changing the image - get rid of the terrible Sky teams, raise the cap, ensure refs are aware of their duties to the sport, stadia, investment. The bar must be raised.

[GeordieSaint]

Just read about the work that the wolves foundation are doing in promoting grass roots involvement. All 72 junior schools and 10 senior have coaching given and with an emphasis on joining clubs. Each amateur club has 2 first team players designated to them.

Sounds like an excellent scheme. I believe Leeds has excellent links to schools and the grassroots in the city. Do other clubs have something similar? If not, they should and it should be a mandatory requirement... If Manchester Rangers link into schools then the professional/semi-pro clubs should...

Increasing the salary cap doesn't increase the elite standard playing pool. All you end up doing is overpaying average players. The strategy needs to be long term and increase the base size at the bottom of the pyramid. Until those issues are address salary increases at the top won't help

Absolutely agree. Simply paying players more isn't going to improve professional RL in his country; it might retain a few players but they aren't going to dramatically improve the sport. It's going to need the player base to increase, skills to improve, facilities to get better, coaching standards to improve dramatically and a comprehensive/encompassing structure across the game.

[JoneslessBishop]

I'm not saying chairmen are tight for not dipping into their own pockets, I'm suggesting clubs spend more of their own money. Leeds happily finished 5th to win the SL for years, and was Williams really ready to replace Blake Green at the highest level, Gelling re Carnont, etc?

That said, as a comp, do we really want all the top talent concentrated in 3 teams so they can compete with Aussie teams 1 weekend a year in the WCS or do we still want the likes of Luke Gale at Cas so they can compete domestically. As long as we have a competitive national team, which we now do, I suspect people want a more even SL.

My mood has calmed a little since my initial post, and hopefully given the increased intensity provided by the super 8s, a reduction in our inferiority complex due some increased interntional success, the focus Saints, Wigan and Leeds have placed on youth really starting to bear fruit, the likes of Warringtons increase spend improving them, and getting some real marque signings onboard, we can improve against the NRL in future WCS.

I think in the short-term, the RFL should meet the SL clubs to see what can be down to close the gaps. I'm sure Mr Lenigan in particular will suggest a full reserve grade, and he may be right, as maybe at the moment the top clubs are having to find space in their first teams for young players too much. But Leeds don't seem to want reserve grade. Time will tell.

[deluded pom?]

The game needed to Aspire to Wigan not bring Wigan down to the rest, we have an ok competition but its shown to be well short of a good one! Many years ago I said we would end up with a Ford fiesta cup where the cars(teams) have the same engine etc etc and they go around the track at a similar speed ! Put these boys against the F1 boys and you can see the consequences!!

Lack of ambition and a bunch of cronies at the top earning far more than the stars , I cannot get that out of my mind!!!

Your initial thoughts may be right in the ideal world but how were the rest of league going to compete with Wigan without throwing the baby out with the bathwater? Widnes tried but soon hit the rocks and had to sell their best players to their rivals. Even Wigan couldn't sustain their dominance without winning virtually everything every year and they had to eventually sell Central Park for the privilege. It's easy to suggest everyone else should aspire to Wigan's level but a lot harder to actually implement. In theory shouldn't a SC set at the level that all clubs can reach not spread the talent around? It doesn't do this to the same degree it does in Australia. We are told that Leeds players will allegedly accept a lower wage to stay at a club that is going to be almost guaranteed to be in the mix up at the end of the season. That shouldn't be happening. Older players should be moving on to other "lesser" clubs as the younger players start to fulfill their potential and so demand more money. Either that money has to come from somewhere by older players leaving or the young player is released. Thus spreading the talent around. All we see are the same clubs monopolising the SL with slight variations.

[nadera78]

England, France and Wales (plus the imports of course) only produce enough talent for a 10 team competition, so we're going to have to move to a 10 team Super League. Padding it out with 2, sometimes 4, extra teams just creates a few meaningless games of a lower standard. The £3million quid saved by losing 2 clubs gets split between the remaining 10 to compensate for the loss of 2 home fixtures.

 

The added benefit is that we'd finally stop working our players like pack horses. The spare 4 weekends would give them a longer off season to recover from one season and then prepare for the next.

 

If the game still wanted P&R in some form then that would be the second stage of the conversation.

[St Reatham]

England, France and Wales (plus the imports of course) only produce enough talent for a 10 team competition, so we're going to have to move to a 10 team Super League. Padding it out with 2, sometimes 4, extra teams just creates a few meaningless games of a lower standard. The £3million quid saved by losing 2 clubs gets split between the remaining 10 to compensate for the loss of 2 home fixtures.

The added benefit is that we'd finally stop working our players like pack horses. The spare 4 weekends would give them a longer off season to recover from one season and then prepare for the next.

If the game still wanted P&R in some form then that would be the second stage of the conversation.

I agree. Also, I think the bit about working the players like pack horses resonates. All three of the SL teams seemed to have players with strappings etc. It's the start of the season so there are obviously quite a few players who haven't fully recovered.

[morley101]

 In Australia when teams go on the field to warm up before games there appears to be more staff than players on the field.  The more affluent clubs have bigger

 football departments to give them an edge over other clubs as it is not part of the salary cap.