French RL in the 70s

[Number 16]

The league structure forty years ago! Three times the number of clubs as now, and an almost national reach! Some famous old names in there that are no longer around...

​

National League 1

Pool A: XIII Catalan, Toulouse Olympique, Carcassonne, Avignon, Villeneuve, Roanne, Limoux, Lezignan, Albi, Saint-Esteve, Pamiers, Pia, Bordeaux, Marseille

Pool B: Carpentras, Saint-Gaudens, Villefranche, Tonneins, Entraigues, La Reole, Cahors, Salon, Paris 13, St Fons,  Carcassonne St Jacques, Cavaillon

 

National League 2

Pool A: Caumont, Ajaccio, La Paillade, Le Pontet, Cannes, Avignon Leo Lagrange, Nimes, St Cyprien

Pool B: AS Carcassonne, Ferrals, Lezignan, Aspet, Auterive, XIII Catalan, Montrejeau, Perpignan 13, Toulouse OAC, Toulouse Olympique

Pool C: Realmont, UO Albi, Chatillon, Clairac, Miramont de Guyenne, Pineuilh, Ste Livrade, Tonneins, Villeneuve SA

 

National League 3

Pool A: Bois D’Arcy, Fleury Merogis, Montgeron, Ezanville, Poitiers, St Maurs Stella

Pool B: Blanc Mesnil, Chatillon, Creteil, Grigny, Les Ulis, Paris 13, Paris AC

Pool C: Bastia, Carpentras, Charlieu, Cheval Blanc, Entraigues, Montpellier, Pelissanne, Plan de Cuques, Vedene

Pool D: Aussillon, Axat, Castres, Homps, La Redorte, Ornaisons, Rieux Minervois, Villegaihenc

Pool E: Ille Sur Tet, Palau, Salses, St Esteve, St Laurent la Salanque, Toulouges

Pool F: Miramont Comminges, Miremont, Muret, Rodez, St Jean Falga, Toulouse Jules Julien, Villefranche Rgue, Villeneuve Tolosane

Pool G: Begles, Duras, Le Mas, Lestelle Betharam, Ogeu, Pau, St Jean Luz, Talence

Pool H: Barie, Bias, Casseneuil, Facture, Limoges, Merignac, Trentels, Villeneuve SA

 

National League 4

Pool A: Angouleme, Carquefou, Nantes, Parthenay, Poitiers, Reze, St Sebastian

Pool B: Bois d’Arcy, Ezanville, Fleury Merogis, Montgeron, Orly, St Maurs Stella

Pool C: Charlieu, Le Couteau, Lyon Police SA, Mably, Roanne, St Etienne, Tarare

Pool D: Apt, Arles, Caumont, Le Thor, Montelimar, Morieres, Mouries, Orange, St Martin Crau

Pool E: Ajaccio, Balagne, Bastia, Bonifacio, Cervione, Corte, Ponte Leccia

Pool F: Claira, Estagel, Le Barcares, Le Boulou, Opoul, Perpignan 13, Rivesaltes

Pool G: Carcasses, Carcassonne St Jacques, Castelnaudary, Flassian, Ginestas, La Salvetat, St Juery, Val d’Orbieu

Pool H: Auterive, Ayguesvives, Cardeilhac, Lescure, Muret, Sauveterre Comminges, Toulouse St Cyprien, Valderies, Villefranche d’Albi

Pool I: Cahors, Le Mas, Lestelle Betharam, Monbahus, Ogeu, Pau

 

[PrimroseAndBlue]

Blimey, some dead zones there.  I note a team in Ajaccio- I reckon Corsica would be a great place to get RL going again.  I've had a look and there doesn't appear to be a union team of any note on the whole island, or at least none in the top 5 divisions.

 

Some places there as well that would be brilliant if RL re-emerged in a big way.  Bordeaux, Marseille, Lyon, Montpellier...it'd be fantastic if we had solidly supported teams from there again.  And equally if Avignon, Albi and Villeneuve could come into some money.

[Trailfinder]

What happened in the last 40 years that caused such decimation of the game in France?

[Hvy wg]

What happened in the last 40 years that caused such decimation of the game in France?

Union went pro. Also terrible management that saw several clubs disapear.

Prime example would be the crusade against Pia.

[The Daddy]

Union went pro. Also terrible management that saw several clubs disapear.

Prime example would be the crusade against Pia.

Was there a crusade against Pia? Explain

[Trailfinder]

Was there a crusade against Pia? Explain

I was wondering about that too

[Hvy wg]

"Oh dear, we are in trouble"

Pia, a little town near Perpignan, had an insane team with a lot of Queensland/NSW cup players. They destroyed the Elite 1, putting 40 past everybody. The budget was over 1 million at the time, or so I heard. 

They won the title, easily. The other teams were angry. 

First they were excluded from the Coupe. Then the president got suspended, after a conflict between him and the federation.

After the president was suspended (for 6 years), no one wanted to take the lead of Pia. The champion of France could take part in the next season after the incident. 


 

[Trailfinder]

"Oh dear, we are in trouble"

Pia, a little town near Perpignan, had an insane team with a lot of Queensland/NSW cup players. They destroyed the Elite 1, putting 40 past everybody. The budget was over 1 million at the time, or so I heard. 

They won the title, easily. The other teams were angry. 

First they were excluded from the Coupe. Then the president got suspended, after a conflict between him and the federation.

After the president was suspended (for 6 years), no one wanted to take the lead of Pia. The champion of France could take part in the next season after the incident.

Thanks

[kiwis 13 6]

With a well developed plan, hard work and sufficient funding the FFR 13 could get the game back in some form in places like Corsica, Cannes, Roanne, Bordeaux, etc. France defeated Australia in 1978 in home test series was not until 2005 tri nations when NZ won the series that Australia lost another series to any one.

 

Good administration is crucial for a sport to succeed. In the 80's in France poor administration caused a decline in popularity. There was a massive brawl in the opening minutes of the Nationally televised 1981 Grand Final and the game was called off!!! In the mid 80's Le Pontet one of the leading French Clubs had a dispute with the FFR13 and withdrew and joined rugby union. A game held in Paris to mark 50 years of league in France with the Northern Hemisphere Vs Southern Hemisphere featuring Wally lewis, Mark Graham etc it was televised around the League World with only about 500 people at stadium watching! French Tour of Southern Hemisphere was cancelled in 1987 which stuffed up the format of the world cup at the time.

 

Despite all this the French National side still had some respectability in the 80's they beat Great Britain in the UK in 1988. Against the 1989 Kiwi tourist they almost caused an upset in the opening test only a Kurt Sorenson break and offload to Gary Freeman saved NZ from defeat, NZ won the 2nd test comfortably though. But it seems the results of some very poor administration fully caught up with the France National team in the 90's onwards...    

[Henson Park Old Firm]

Real shame

[Jim from Oz]

The league structure forty years ago! Three times the number of clubs as now, and an almost national reach! Some famous old names in there that are no longer around...

​

National League 1

Pool A: XIII Catalan, Toulouse Olympique, Carcassonne, Avignon, Villeneuve, Roanne, Limoux, Lezignan, Albi, Saint-Esteve, Pamiers, Pia, Bordeaux, Marseille

Pool B: Carpentras, Saint-Gaudens, Villefranche, Tonneins, Entraigues, La Reole, Cahors, Salon, Paris 13, St Fons,  Carcassonne St Jacques, Cavaillon

 

National League 2

Pool A: Caumont, Ajaccio, La Paillade, Le Pontet, Cannes, Avignon Leo Lagrange, Nimes, St Cyprien

Pool B: AS Carcassonne, Ferrals, Lezignan, Aspet, Auterive, XIII Catalan, Montrejeau, Perpignan 13, Toulouse OAC, Toulouse Olympique

Pool C: Realmont, UO Albi, Chatillon, Clairac, Miramont de Guyenne, Pineuilh, Ste Livrade, Tonneins, Villeneuve SA

 

National League 3

Pool A: Bois D’Arcy, Fleury Merogis, Montgeron, Ezanville, Poitiers, St Maurs Stella

Pool B: Blanc Mesnil, Chatillon, Creteil, Grigny, Les Ulis, Paris 13, Paris AC

Pool C: Bastia, Carpentras, Charlieu, Cheval Blanc, Entraigues, Montpellier, Pelissanne, Plan de Cuques, Vedene

Pool D: Aussillon, Axat, Castres, Homps, La Redorte, Ornaisons, Rieux Minervois, Villegaihenc

Pool E: Ille Sur Tet, Palau, Salses, St Esteve, St Laurent la Salanque, Toulouges

Pool F: Miramont Comminges, Miremont, Muret, Rodez, St Jean Falga, Toulouse Jules Julien, Villefranche Rgue, Villeneuve Tolosane

Pool G: Begles, Duras, Le Mas, Lestelle Betharam, Ogeu, Pau, St Jean Luz, Talence

Pool H: Barie, Bias, Casseneuil, Facture, Limoges, Merignac, Trentels, Villeneuve SA

 

National League 4

Pool A: Angouleme, Carquefou, Nantes, Parthenay, Poitiers, Reze, St Sebastian

Pool B: Bois d’Arcy, Ezanville, Fleury Merogis, Montgeron, Orly, St Maurs Stella

Pool C: Charlieu, Le Couteau, Lyon Police SA, Mably, Roanne, St Etienne, Tarare

Pool D: Apt, Arles, Caumont, Le Thor, Montelimar, Morieres, Mouries, Orange, St Martin Crau

Pool E: Ajaccio, Balagne, Bastia, Bonifacio, Cervione, Corte, Ponte Leccia

Pool F: Claira, Estagel, Le Barcares, Le Boulou, Opoul, Perpignan 13, Rivesaltes

Pool G: Carcasses, Carcassonne St Jacques, Castelnaudary, Flassian, Ginestas, La Salvetat, St Juery, Val d’Orbieu

Pool H: Auterive, Ayguesvives, Cardeilhac, Lescure, Muret, Sauveterre Comminges, Toulouse St Cyprien, Valderies, Villefranche d’Albi

Pool I: Cahors, Le Mas, Lestelle Betharam, Monbahus, Ogeu, Pau

 

My oh my … incredible. I had no idea it was so widespread back then. What a total shame it is so much smaller now … :-(

[Jim from Oz]

The league structure forty years ago! Three times the number of clubs as now, and an almost national reach! Some famous old names in there that are no longer around...

​

National League 1

Pool A: XIII Catalan, Toulouse Olympique, Carcassonne, Avignon, Villeneuve, Roanne, Limoux, Lezignan, Albi, Saint-Esteve, Pamiers, Pia, Bordeaux, Marseille

Pool B: Carpentras, Saint-Gaudens, Villefranche, Tonneins, Entraigues, La Reole, Cahors, Salon, Paris 13, St Fons,  Carcassonne St Jacques, Cavaillon

 

National League 2

Pool A: Caumont, Ajaccio, La Paillade, Le Pontet, Cannes, Avignon Leo Lagrange, Nimes, St Cyprien

Pool B: AS Carcassonne, Ferrals, Lezignan, Aspet, Auterive, XIII Catalan, Montrejeau, Perpignan 13, Toulouse OAC, Toulouse Olympique

Pool C: Realmont, UO Albi, Chatillon, Clairac, Miramont de Guyenne, Pineuilh, Ste Livrade, Tonneins, Villeneuve SA

 

National League 3

Pool A: Bois D’Arcy, Fleury Merogis, Montgeron, Ezanville, Poitiers, St Maurs Stella

Pool B: Blanc Mesnil, Chatillon, Creteil, Grigny, Les Ulis, Paris 13, Paris AC

Pool C: Bastia, Carpentras, Charlieu, Cheval Blanc, Entraigues, Montpellier, Pelissanne, Plan de Cuques, Vedene

Pool D: Aussillon, Axat, Castres, Homps, La Redorte, Ornaisons, Rieux Minervois, Villegaihenc

Pool E: Ille Sur Tet, Palau, Salses, St Esteve, St Laurent la Salanque, Toulouges

Pool F: Miramont Comminges, Miremont, Muret, Rodez, St Jean Falga, Toulouse Jules Julien, Villefranche Rgue, Villeneuve Tolosane

Pool G: Begles, Duras, Le Mas, Lestelle Betharam, Ogeu, Pau, St Jean Luz, Talence

Pool H: Barie, Bias, Casseneuil, Facture, Limoges, Merignac, Trentels, Villeneuve SA

 

National League 4

Pool A: Angouleme, Carquefou, Nantes, Parthenay, Poitiers, Reze, St Sebastian

Pool B: Bois d’Arcy, Ezanville, Fleury Merogis, Montgeron, Orly, St Maurs Stella

Pool C: Charlieu, Le Couteau, Lyon Police SA, Mably, Roanne, St Etienne, Tarare

Pool D: Apt, Arles, Caumont, Le Thor, Montelimar, Morieres, Mouries, Orange, St Martin Crau

Pool E: Ajaccio, Balagne, Bastia, Bonifacio, Cervione, Corte, Ponte Leccia

Pool F: Claira, Estagel, Le Barcares, Le Boulou, Opoul, Perpignan 13, Rivesaltes

Pool G: Carcasses, Carcassonne St Jacques, Castelnaudary, Flassian, Ginestas, La Salvetat, St Juery, Val d’Orbieu

Pool H: Auterive, Ayguesvives, Cardeilhac, Lescure, Muret, Sauveterre Comminges, Toulouse St Cyprien, Valderies, Villefranche d’Albi

Pool I: Cahors, Le Mas, Lestelle Betharam, Monbahus, Ogeu, Pau

Can someone cross through the teams that no longer exist? Merci

[kiwis 13 6]

In that list the ones i can say no longer exist are Cannes which i read folded, the Corsican side Ajaccico as no league on Corsica anymore and Le Pontet club no longer exist in rugby league they may be still be playing another game though...

[barnyia]

In the national 3 poule d , there are 5 teams within 20 Kms of each other, rieux minervois is my village and I need to drive through la redorte which is 5 Kms away to get to homps which is the next village along,

There are a lot of very small villages on that list!

One thing that made rl struggle was the violence on the field plus the need of people to leave villages to go to cities to find work other than in the vineyards,

[Hvy wg]

Oh yes, I forgot to mention 1981 finale.

This one was on national TV, live. The game didn't last long, less than 5 minutes. Huge fight broke out and the game was stopped. No more TV for us!

[JonM]

The Corsican teams were basically a disgruntled union set-up that switched en-masse to RL. A couple of amateur teams (Widnes Tigers were one I think) toured there in the 1970s and maybe BARLA too. They went back to union eventually.

 

Some of those outposts have clung on - Roanne were formed in 1934 and are still going, still several hours from the heartland of French RL. Others, Lestelle Betharam for example, clung on until quite recently, but it's kind of a domino effect. If there's only 2 or 3 teams within an hour of you and one of them fails, you end up travelling huge distances for all of your games, your juniors have no-one to play against and it becomes increasingly likely that you can't put a team out.

 

Politics & violence started the decline, union going professional hasn't helped and the games administration has not been that great. Not sure the population shifts can take all the blame; the population of France is moving from the North to South and from the countryside to the cities. In Britain, that's helped RL to spread, in France it's had the opposite effect. The teams in cities seem to have a lot of players with North African roots rather than those who were paysans a generation back.

[PrimroseAndBlue]

Whilst they're moving southwards now, there was a real rural exodus in the 60s and 70s.  Especially around places like Cahors.

[audois]

National League 1

Pool A: XIII Catalan, Toulouse Olympique, Carcassonne, Avignon, Villeneuve, Roanne, Limoux, Lezignan, Albi, Saint-Esteve, Pamiers, Pia, Bordeaux, Marseille

Pool B: Carpentras, Saint-Gaudens, Villefranche, Tonneins, Entraigues, La Reole, Cahors, Salon, Paris 13, St Fons,  Carcassonne St Jacques, Cavaillon

 

Top 26 clubs above: Today missing what Pamiers, Bordeaux, Paris XIII, St Fons and Carcassonne St Jacques. Roanne still playing down the chain and Pia re-forming maybe.St Jacques other end of Carcassonne to Stade Domec.  The famous prop forward Mick Murphy of St Helens/Huddersfield fame played there years back. Paris Chatillon were playing more than a decade back with Kiwi packman Pongia on board. As barnyia says lots of village sides have gone but I still  get surprised by the reach the code still has considerating the battering it has received. Its a tough old boot.

[audois]

Just seen that Paris Chatillon played this last weekend at Federal level and elsewhere Marseille U20s have reached the Tabouriche Cup  final (Federal) against La Reole and have a lad in the Dragons Academy set-up too – Theo Lardot.

[Yosser]

This wiki list from 2013 badly in need of updating

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:French_rugby_league_teams

[EdinburghExile]

Didn't Le Pontet play against a British team for a cup a while back? Can't remember if it was the Anglo-French cup decades ago, or something more recent like when maybe Leigh Miners went over.

[JonM]

Didn't Le Pontet play against a British team for a cup a while back? Can't remember if it was the Anglo-French cup decades ago, or something more recent like when maybe Leigh Miners went over.

 

Much further back thatn that.

 

Le Pontet was/is a growing suburb of Avignon, the club had a lot of people who were new to rugby league, had a very strong junior section producing lots of international juniors and quickly became very succesful, including winning the French championship twice. This didn't win them any friends in the other clubs & federation who resented the club. Versions differ on who did what, but essentially some of their players were banned for a cup final, there was a big falling out and after winnning the double, the club switched en masse to RU.

 

The first international board sanctioned World Club Challenge (following the unofficial Wigan/Manly game) involved the champions of England & France playing each other in the European Club Championship to earn the right to play the Australian champions. Widnes travelled to Le Pontet to play the game, with thousands of Widnes fans traveling over to the South of France by coach (this being 1989, pre-Ryanair/Easyjet). However, Le Pontet switched to union a day or two before the game, with the result that Widnes easily a beat a French selection in a game played elsewhere in France, with most of the travelling fans arriving just in time for the final whistle. Widnes are still the first and only European Club Challenge winners. Le Pontet are now a fairly low level RU team.

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

The indication, a few posts back, that the violence in RL (circa the '70s and '80s) turned off many actual or would-be supporters (and perhaps a braodcaster too) will seem ironic to those of us who have read Mike Rylance's The Forbidden Game.  (incidentally, the best sports book on any sport that I have ever read)  As I recall, one of the points he makes is that violence in French RU had turned many people off it, and that helped to give the newly introduced RL a flying, pre-war start.

 

I also glean both from points above and the Rylance book that there sometimes seems to be a culture in French rugby of disenchantment in one code leading to a whole club migrating to the other (and possibly back again, as in Corsica)  Would that be affair conclusion?  If 'yes', does it still occur?

[Usera]

The indication, a few posts back, that the violence in RL (circa the '70s and '80s) turned off many actual or would-be supporters (and perhaps a braodcaster too) will seem ironic to those of us who have read Mike Rylance's The Forbidden Game.  (incidentally, the best sports book on any sport that I have ever read)  As I recall, one of the points he makes is that violence in French RU had turned many people off it, and that helped to give the newly introduced RL a flying, pre-war start.

 

I also glean both from points above and the Rylance book that there sometimes seems to be a culture in French rugby of disenchantment in one code leading to a whole club migrating to the other (and possibly back again, as in Corsica)  Would that be affair conclusion?  If 'yes', does it still occur?

 

Much further back thatn that.

 

Le Pontet was/is a growing suburb of Avignon, the club had a lot of people who were new to rugby league, had a very strong junior section producing lots of international juniors and quickly became very succesful, including winning the French championship twice. This didn't win them any friends in the other clubs & federation who resented the club. Versions differ on who did what, but essentially some of their players were banned for a cup final, there was a big falling out and after winnning the double, the club switched en masse to RU.

 

The first international board sanctioned World Club Challenge (following the unofficial Wigan/Manly game) involved the champions of England & France playing each other in the European Club Championship to earn the right to play the Australian champions. Widnes travelled to Le Pontet to play the game, with thousands of Widnes fans traveling over to the South of France by coach (this being 1989, pre-Ryanair/Easyjet). However, Le Pontet switched to union a day or two before the game, with the result that Widnes easily a beat a French selection in a game played elsewhere in France, with most of the travelling fans arriving just in time for the final whistle. Widnes are still the first and only European Club Challenge winners. Le Pontet are now a fairly low level RU team.

Funny how the IRB, now World Rugby, was not the slightest bit concerned that the French RU admitted a semi-professional club into 'amateur' union. 

[kiwis 13 6]

wasn't aware of Widnes vs Le Pontet game that never was situation, interesting story but talk about really bad organisation that allowed that situation to happen.

 

Another one I read about was 1989 Kiwi Tour a mid week game in Avignon between test matches was called off as Kiwi sides bus got lost or stuck in traffic and couldn't make it to the ground on time and game was called off apparently a crowd of a couple thousand showed up and weren't to happy!

 

In the time before the internet, google maps, cell phones, social media and language was even more of a barrier back then you can see how these things occurred but it still gives the impression of  things being a little bit crazy