2019 structure

[Wellsy4HullFC]

3 hours ago, Big Picture said:

They don't need to do any such thing, they're well established in the UK's most popular sport which isn't facing any sort of decline, so you're comparing apples and oranges there.

So Saints and Wigan are not established or well known? Most sports fans in this country will know that they're rugby league clubs.

In America, I hardly think they'll know much about Crystal Palace, West Bromwich, Aston Villa, etc. which all play in suburbs of much larger areas. It has never been an issue for those clubs or the league.

Rugby league is not facing decline because it has clubs in suburbs or towns, and changing their name to local big cities is not going to change that our fool anyone.

[Just Browny]

1 hour ago, Bob8 said:

 

Okay, so Saints are in Super League because of the float glass technique and Sheffield are in because of Heaven 17.

Anyone else?

Warrington have a triple claim: first UK Ikea, Kerry Katona and Mr Smith's.

[Bob8]

Just now, Just Browny said:

Warrington have a triple claim: first UK Ikea, Kerry Katona and Mr Smith's.

I am worried we only have a three team league.

How should we select the other teams?  Perhaps franchising or maybe promotion and relegation?

Perhaps this should be a new thread?

[Just Browny]

4 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I am worried we only have a three team league.

How should we select the other teams?  Perhaps franchising or maybe promotion and relegation?

Perhaps this should be a new thread?

There has to be P&R. You need to give the lower teams the dream that, one day, they will have their own Z-list celebrity or obscure invention to propel them to the top.

[bobbruce]

3 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I am worried we only have a three team league.

How should we select the other teams?  Perhaps franchising or maybe promotion and relegation?

Perhaps this should be a new thread?

So we need some kind of top trumps card for each town. If we have five categories starting with the two we’ve already had. Best 80s band and size of heavy industry. Then there’s always one about speed so time to m62 could be one so we just need two more. 

[bobbruce]

I’ve got another most famous fan. 

[Harry Stottle]

12 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I am worried we only have a three team league.

How should we select the other teams?  Perhaps franchising or maybe promotion and relegation?

Perhaps this should be a new thread?

Don't be ridiculous Bob, neither of those would ever work, what we need is a dart board and its projectiles, a map of North America and drawing pins, and just to make things fair a blindfold so there is no cheating?

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

There has to be P&R. You need to give the lower teams the dream that, one day, they will have their own Z-list celebrity or obscure invention to propel them to the top.

Got yeh, you mean a littke like Moran at Warrington, Davy at Huddersfield, Pearson at Hull, Guasch at Catalan and that is only 4 of them, what a great idea, pity no else has ever thought of that, top of the class for you Browny.

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Perez himself concedes he needs a huge TV deal to justify North American clubs into Superleague, he asked for Superleague's patience over the next 10 years whilst he gradually introduces 5-6 clubs into Superleague to give it the Transatlantic flavour he believes will attract the $Billions. The thing is this comes with no guarantees except the destruction of English clubs who must make way. So Red Rooster and SL certainly can and should ask to see the money first.

As the facts that don't suit are constantly ignored then the fantasy builds and builds to a point where we now are on a path to transferring the game out of it's northern enclaves in Hull, the Leeds-Bradford area and the central Lancashire area. 

Professional RL in this country is apparently going to be moved wholesale into London, New York, Birmingham. Toronto, Coventry,  Hamilton, Manchester, Boston, Liverpool and Jacksonville, to create a Transatlantic League that will then see those $$$Billion dollar deals flow into this revolutionary venture.

That the traditional north of England will have only two pro clubs located in cities that have roundly rejected Rugby League whether that was Liverpool City or Belle Vue Rangers only makes all this stuff more incredulous.

Of course the rich owners of the current clubs will not stand in the way of such progress. They will surely support it by selling their grounds for housing like Oldham, Swinton and York did and putting that revenue towards the costs of all the new stadia we need to build or rent. They will bus all their academy kids down to London, Birmingham and Coventry to open the new academies there. Perhaps the RFL can organise transport deals for the fans to go see the games, or maybe they will be happy to watch it all on TV so we can pick up their revenue that way.

Over in North America will Pro-14 close once the staid and boring Union game is exposed by all action Rugby League which will surely turn the heads of investors and players alike. Could that then be the catalyst for a wholesale shift of Union to League. At one time I may have said you could not make this stuff up, but it seems you can.

I am now convinced that some of the suggestions on here are just wind-up's, probably propogated by someone in the office of TRL to keep the boards momentum turning over.

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Whilst this is all true, there is sense in what big picture is saying. 

We do need clubs based in areas with big populations and big markets. That can be Wigan or Saints. There is no reason they can't be the teams for Manchester and liverpool. Its a question of marketing and branding. 

It's not impossible to sell saint Helens to Liverpool or Wigan as manchester. It might be a little more difficult and im not sure you you would even consider it for very long if you were starting from scratch but it's definitely possible. 

Rugby Leagues location problem is that we have a couple of towns selling to a larger area. It's that we don't have enough clubs from anywhere selling in to big cities and have too many clubs selling to small areas in a small area styling each other's growth and cannabilising each other's markets. 

Are you suggesting leaving Wigan and Saints where they are and just doing a renaming job?

[sweaty craiq]

2 hours ago, Bob8 said:

 

Okay, so Saints are in Super League because of the float glass technique and Sheffield are in because of Heaven 17.

Anyone else?

Leigh are nailed on due to the Buzzcocks (everyone loves Shrek) and the Spinning Jenny

[Kayakman]

4 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

So Saints and Wigan are not established or well known? Most sports fans in this country will know that they're rugby league clubs.

In America, I hardly think they'll know much about Crystal Palace, West Bromwich, Aston Villa, etc. which all play in suburbs of much larger areas. It has never been an issue for those clubs or the league.

Rugby league is not facing decline because it has clubs in suburbs or towns, and changing their name to local big cities is not going to change that our fool anyone.

I like the current names, they have a real appeal to North Americans...rename new franchises yes but keep the old names for the established teams.   This constant renaming/rebranding in Rugby League is odd and there is too much tinkering; especially with the uniforms..

Like they killed that team from Wales named the Scorpions and I really liked that name...what a shame.

And i don't want the TWP to change their jerseys all the time like some teams, some of the kits look really stupid, once or possibly even twice a season for special occasions but thats it!

And keep the proud names of the old clubs...thats really important!

[Big Picture]

4 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

So Saints and Wigan are not established or well known? Most sports fans in this country will know that they're rugby league clubs.

In America, I hardly think they'll know much about Crystal Palace, West Bromwich, Aston Villa, etc. which all play in suburbs of much larger areas. It has never been an issue for those clubs or the league.

Rugby league is not facing decline because it has clubs in suburbs or towns, and changing their name to local big cities is not going to change that our fool anyone.

I agree that  St Helens and Wigan are established and well known to UK sports fans: known as small towns which whether we like it or not have no box office appeal in London, etc. and won't to broadcasters in North America.  In the words of Red Rooster, "a canadian broadcasteer will look at any deal and think yeah lets do a deal because Toronto will be playing London, Brimingham, Cardiff etc in the UK superleague - um no you will be playing Featherstone, Castleford and Wakefied. Once explained the tight geographical location the broadcasters response will be - yeah right..."

So as Parksider and some others here have suggested, a league blending small town traditional clubs with big city teams over here wouldn't really be  viable because it wouldn't attract the level of TV rights and sponsorship needed to underwrite all that transatlantic travel.  However as Captain Survival has stated, the transatlantic aspect is a key part of the appeal which the Wolfpack have generated so its fundamental to making a breakthrough in this part of the world.

So then, how to make that happen?

My answer is not that existing traditional clubs should rebrand or relocate, I say that by all means let them stay in a local league just as they always did.  Instead my answer is that the transatlantic concept is most likely only workable with a new, separate league comprised of new franchises started afresh like Toronto along with Toronto, Toulouse and Catalans (but relocated to Barcelona).  A London franchise would need a complete rebranding at minimum and likely new ownership too.

To those who say it couldn't be done, I would point out that Toronto has already done things which no one here (me included) thought possible when the news about their initiative came out.  If they had enough investor groups for 10-12 franchises (and indications from Rimmer and Woods suggest that there could be half that number already) and a solid plan of how to structure and operate such a league, with well thought out franchise locations to maximize its appeal to broadcasters and big money sponsors, then I have no doubt that they could do it successfully.

[Mattrhino]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Not really branding and marketing are much bigger than just your name. Wigan and saints have relatively recognisable brands. There is no real reason with a little time effort money and skill they couldn't be the brands for Manchester (or more likely a substantial part of) and liverpool. 

I think Saints and Wigan are the go to teams for people from Liverpool and Manchester.

 

[redjonn]

7 hours ago, Bob8 said:

 

Okay, so Saints are in Super League because of the float glass technique and Sheffield are in because of Heaven 17.

Anyone else?

Well I prefer to think of Beechams and its first product,  Beecham Pills - a Laxative (Beecham's pills make all the difference one of its marketing slogans), when it comes to St Helens & Wigan.... In that Beechams Pharmaceuticals first factory was in St Helens and its first retail shop in Wigan (prior to the factory) making and selling those Laxative Pills...

Not made anymore since late nineties so who knows what they use there nowadays, chuckle.

[emesssea]

To say the Warriors and Saints needed to drop Wigan and St Helens and replace with Manchester and Liverpool is pretty short sighted. If the Super League is going to sell its product to North Americans its going to want two of its premier leagues up front in the marketing. Regardless of their location their history in the game will sell itself. Like I said for the average American when it comes to England its London and everyone else.

 

Likewise I doubt Pittsburgh is on any European's top US destination locations (hell is not on anyone in the US' either) to visit, but I'm sure European NFL fans would love nothing more than to see the hypothetical NFL London franchisee host the Steelers so they can seem them in person.

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

You'e going to find it much harder to build an entire new league of entirely new clubs than you would to sell the Warriors to and as Manchester and The Saints to and as Liverpool and trying to sell a new club over the top of Leeds and Hull. 

For a start that's two teams in northwest England when initially there would probably only be room for one it they were going down that route.

Rimmer and Woods have let it be known that Toronto has stimulated a lot of interest from this side of the Atlantic, and it might not be exclusively from this side.  The ones over here clearly see a ground floor opportunity in the pro sports business, one which they can get into for much less money than buying into any of the established sports here and which (because of the transatlantic aspect) has huge potential upside.

So conceivably if Toulouse and a relocated Catalans are in the mix there are could already be enough investor groups interested for something like 8 franchises in such a new league.  If so, only 4 more for English franchises (one each in London, the Midlands, northeast England and northwest England) would be needed to make a 12-team start with 6 in Europe and 6 here in America, and a setup like that could well interest Marwan Koukash which would only leave buyers needed for 3 more franchises.

That structure would mean that the league schedule would be full of international and intercontinental blockbuster matches of the kind seen in the Champions' League, UEFA League and Copa Libertadores, every week of every season rather than just a few times in a season full of lesser matches as in those competitions.  The punters in the English cities lucky enough to host franchises in such a league would be getting something bigger and bolder than anything seen or heard of before in sports — conceivably every English team's home opener might be against an opponent from another country.  Crucially, ditto for the TV partners and sponsors who would be vital to the big launch needed and to ongoing operations, the sponsors would get exposure in as many as half a dozen countries for being involved.

So yes, it could work and RL could finally get the better of RU in the process.

[Kayakman]

And it ' IS' doable!

[Big Picture]

Just now, Kayakman said:

And it ' IS' doable!

Of course it is.  It only needs the right planning and right investment, the rest would fall into place naturally.

[Kayakman]

Just now, Big Picture said:

Of course it is.  It only needs the right planning and right investment, the rest would fall into place naturally.

And the right vision?

[Big Picture]

2 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

And the right vision?

Of course.  Vision first, plan second, then line up franchise buyers, TV partners and sponsors and go from there.

[Kayakman]

Just now, Big Picture said:

Of course.  Vision first, plan second, then line up franchise buyers, TV partners and sponsors and go from there.

I believe you and i think it would work...do you actually think this is the plan?

[Big Picture]

1 minute ago, Kayakman said:

I believe you and i think it would work...do you actually think this is the plan?

Maybe, maybe not, I don't know if the new guys like Pérez have thought that far ahead yet or if they appreciate how much the English game is hamstrung by limited perspectives and small-time thinking as we saw in those concerns about "no away fans" etc.

I remember Mike Mayer (a former NFL player who had big ideas for RL in the US a few decades ago) telling me once when we were in contact that although English administrators at the time were supportive, they really didn't appreciate the possibilities of commercial TV back then, and they had the odd idea that GB had to become more competitive with Australia for their views to matter much within the game.

[Kayakman]

2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Maybe, maybe not, I don't know if the new guys like Pérez have thought that far ahead yet or if they appreciate how much the English game is hamstrung by limited perspectives and small-time thinking as we saw in those concerns about "no away fans" etc.

I remember Mike Mayer (a former NFL player who had big ideas for RL in the US a few decades ago) telling me once when we were in contact that although English administrators at the time were supportive, they really didn't appreciate the possibilities of commercial TV back then, and they had the odd idea that GB had to become more competitive with Australia for their views to matter much within the game.

It will be very interesting to watch it develop/great potential but needs to be initiated.

[Big Picture]

7 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

It will be very interesting to watch it develop/great potential but needs to be initiated.

Some signs are not the best, e.g. new teams potentially being based in Hamilton and Boston.  Hamilton certainly won't have the kind of market appeal needed (though maybe Pérez sees Hamilton as becoming a Toronto farm team) and that might be true of Boston too, plus I would think that Philadelphia's a bigger sports rival for New York than Boston so Philadelphia would be a better location.