Rugby League - man's game!

[Evil Homer]

18 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

By the way I don't have a vested interest so if modelling of all types dissapeared tommorow it wouldn't be missed by me. But I don't see the massive moral schism between the F1 grid girl getting a few thousand quid for a weekends work wearing a tight dress or the Armani model in her underwear. 

I guess because one is advertising a specific type of product and the other is an attempt to titillate a predominantly male audience at a sporting event.

[Mattrhino]

46 minutes ago, Evil Homer said:

I guess because one is advertising a specific type of product and the other is an attempt to titillate a predominantly male audience at a sporting event.

No I get it, but I don't see the big moral schism between the two.

It's all about selling the glitz and lifestyle of the product. Wether its boxer shorts, rolex watches or watching F1.

[Evil Homer]

6 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

No I get it, but I don't see the big moral schism between the two.

It's all about selling the glitz and lifestyle of the product. Wether its boxer shorts, rolex watches or watching F1.

Not really, again one is an advertisement and the other is a sporting event. I don't have any problem seeing an advert involving a shirtless Calvin Klein model but if I was to attend a netball match and at halftime a bunch of oiled-up bodybuilders in trunks came out and started flexing and showing off for the predominantly female audience I would probably feel a little awkward and uncomfortable to be there.

[Mattrhino]

44 minutes ago, Evil Homer said:

Not really, again one is an advertisement and the other is a sporting event. I don't have any problem seeing an advert involving a shirtless Calvin Klein model but if I was to attend a netball match and at halftime a bunch of oiled-up bodybuilders in trunks came out and started flexing and showing off for the predominantly female audience I would probably feel a little awkward and uncomfortable to be there.

But the sporting event is a product that is advertising itself and to be fair the women are not oiling themselves up and dancing around.

[Evil Homer]

25 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

But the sporting event is a product that is advertising itself and to be fair the women are not oiling themselves up and dancing around.

I don't know what they do, I don't watch F1, but that I guess is the basic thinking behind removing them. Also not sure what they really need to advertise to people who are already watching, especially by using sex appeal which has absolutely no relevance to the product. With underwear adverts etc the implication is that you'll look as good as those people if you buy the underwear, what is the implication with F1, become a racing driver and you will be surrounded by hot women? It's not really the same thing at all, they're there to add 'glamour' which is another way of saying they're there for the fans to ogle. If you want an advertising equivalent it would be like buying insurance and getting a free topless calendar.

[Dave T]

31 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

But the sporting event is a product that is advertising itself and to be fair the women are not oiling themselves up and dancing around.

But what is it selling? The lifestyle and idea that you too can be a rich man and have fast cars and beautiful women.

At least men and women in skimpy underwear are actually selling that underwear which are a product people. They are physically modelling the clothes.

Sex sells. And i think people get that. But I think the context needs to be there.

If i go to a strip club i expect to see naked women. If i see underwear ads i expect to see models in their underwear. If I go to watch darts or motor racing Im not sure there is a fit that there should be a lod of hot women hanging around for rich or drunken men to perv at.

A bit like Page 3 in the Sun. Its what people always saw as harmless fun amd those women also lost their jobs, but when you think back now it was bizarre.

Times move on.

[Mattrhino]

30 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But what is it selling? The lifestyle and idea that you too can be a rich man and have fast cars and beautiful women.

At least men and women in skimpy underwear are actually selling that underwear which are a product people. They are physically modelling the clothes.

Sex sells. And i think people get that. But I think the context needs to be there.

If i go to a strip club i expect to see naked women. If i see underwear ads i expect to see models in their underwear. If I go to watch darts or motor racing Im not sure there is a fit that there should be a lod of hot women hanging around for rich or drunken men to perv at.

A bit like Page 3 in the Sun. Its what people always saw as harmless fun amd those women also lost their jobs, but when you think back now it was bizarre.

Times move on.

That is exactly what it is selling Dave "fast cars,fast women" go hand in hand.

I don't massively disagree with you, but I can guarantee that if I go to Silverstone this year there will be hundreds of pretty women selling Martini, Red Bull, Monster, Johnnie Walker, Tag Heur, working as hostesses in hospitality, podium and corridor girls the list goes on. So what has getting rid of 24 grid girls done? 

I think a Massive Armani advert with a model in her underwear in a shopping mall for everyone to see is much more of a moral issue than a woman in a cocktail dress at the Darts or F1. And that scantily clad woman is not just selling to women it is selling the Brand. Blokes will think if I buy Armani products I could have a girl like that or if I buy my wife lingerie she will look like that.

As I said I am not a bastian for the modelling industry. My gripe is with these silly token gestures that achieve nothing really other than less job oppurtunities for the women that have chosen modelling as a profession.

[RP London]

DP didn’t realise I had already replied to a commemt

[Mattrhino]

26 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

What about the women who work in F1. Perhaps they don't feel comfortable with the grid girls. Perhaps they feel it gives the wrong impression.

And perhaps its not the end point but simply a step in a particular direction. As the grid girls go the corridor girls and podium girls will look more and more incongruous.

And as the image of the sport changes from one of trying to sell things to rich men to make them feel like James Hunt drinking and shagging their way around the world women will feel more comfortable as fans of the sport opening up new sponsorship opportunities for the owners, and more women will see the sport as a realistic profession opening up job opportunities for women. 

 I feel like I am playing devils advocate here.

I have not heard ladies like Claire Williams or Monisha Kaltenborn say anything about the grid girls before if they have then fair play I don't think anyone should have to feel uncomfortable at work.

I think it is rather naive to think this is anything but a token gesture and suddenly we will stop selling sex. 

I also find it a little incredulous that grid girls is the reason a women is interested in F1 or not. I see plenty of women at F1 events on TV and I'm sure millions around the world.

[RP London]

On 31/01/2018 at 7:35 AM, MZH said:

 

When the Titanic was going down and they said women and children first. Was that prejudiced? Should it have just been a free for all with the strongest (the men) surviving? At least it wouldn't have been sexist.

Off topic but you do realise the sense in this surely?

It s about giving the most people the best chance to survive and generalisations in quick decision making under pressure are needed. 

Children are not strong swimmers in general they are also more susceptible to the cold of the sea.. they are also the future generation which needs to be preserved... any parent would say they would die for their child..

The women first bit is a harp back and is sexist however you are looking at trying to make snap decisions in moments hence generalisations are needed. you need the mothers of the children not needing to fight to prove they are the mothers, pregnant women not needing to prove they are pregnant etc etc.. 

[Mattrhino]

I also think people should give women a bit more credit and feel like we need protect thier sensibilites. 

The media is great at whipping up a frenzy. When the average woman probaly is not bothered in the slightest.

My wife likes watching the F1 with me and we went to Monte Carlo 2 years ago. She was interested in what the PR women were wearing, but that was a minute part of the experience which she loved. I will take her word over any talking head in the media.

[damp squib]

13 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

I also think people should give women a bit more credit and feel like we need protect thier sensibilites. 

The media is great at whipping up a frenzy. When the average woman probaly is not bothered in the slightest.

How would you know? Part of the problem is that you don't see the insane levels of abuse that women get for speaking out about anything related to sexism. That's why more women don't speak out. It takes a critical mass of voices for women to feel safe expressing themselves like what's happening in Hollywood.

Your point about the girls serving drinks etc. seems to be that if we can't change everything for the better we shouldn't change anything for the better.

[Mattrhino]

Also what we shouldn't do is group this in with sexual assualt and sexism at work.

[Mattrhino]

5 minutes ago, damp squib said:

How would you know? Part of the problem is that you don't see the insane levels of abuse that women get for speaking out about anything related to sexism. That's why more women don't speak out. It takes a critical mass of voices for women to feel safe expressing themselves like what's happening in Hollywood.

Your point about the girls serving drinks etc. seems to be that if we can't change everything for the better we shouldn't change anything for the better.

Didn't see this before my last post, but it was answered by it.

[nec]

I have no problem with Mr Lockwood having free speech for his casual approval of objectifying women and casual islamophobia. My issue is him doing this in one of the two dedicated weekly publications for my favourite sport. A sport with a history of inclusiveness, that needs to up its game in terms of the women's game and where many heartland towns and cities have substantial Muslim populations.

[RP London]

2 hours ago, Mattrhino said:

I also think people should give women a bit more credit and feel like we need protect thier sensibilites. 

The media is great at whipping up a frenzy. When the average woman probaly is not bothered in the slightest.

My wife likes watching the F1 with me and we went to Monte Carlo 2 years ago. She was interested in what the PR women were wearing, but that was a minute part of the experience which she loved. I will take her word over any talking head in the media.

The vast majority may not have an issue or be affected by it... but if there is a minority that are struggling because of it or are being objectified etc by a small proportion of men because of this sort of thing (ie a small minoroty of men look at nice looking girls, think bimbo and don't employ them for any thing else but being a "dolly bird") then surely in a civilised society it is up to the majority to stand up for the minority?

 

[Dave T]

4 hours ago, Mattrhino said:

That is exactly what it is selling Dave "fast cars,fast women" go hand in hand.

I don't massively disagree with you, but I can guarantee that if I go to Silverstone this year there will be hundreds of pretty women selling Martini, Red Bull, Monster, Johnnie Walker, Tag Heur, working as hostesses in hospitality, podium and corridor girls the list goes on. So what has getting rid of 24 grid girls done? 

I think a Massive Armani advert with a model in her underwear in a shopping mall for everyone to see is much more of a moral issue than a woman in a cocktail dress at the Darts or F1. And that scantily clad woman is not just selling to women it is selling the Brand. Blokes will think if I buy Armani products I could have a girl like that or if I buy my wife lingerie she will look like that.

As I said I am not a bastian for the modelling industry. My gripe is with these silly token gestures that achieve nothing really other than less job oppurtunities for the women that have chosen modelling as a profession.

The thing is that each little step adds up and suddenly companies still doing these things start to look out of place and dated.

I should add I dont have issues with companies using this kind of tactic, sports need to decide whether that is what they want, i dont think it should be banned but sports make their own choices. In both instances the sports in conjunction with broadcasters have decided to move on from this.

Darts are within their rights to keep walk on girls and fans can choose whether yo support that sport, and broadcasters and sponsors can decide if they want to support them.

[Oxford]

I don't care about darts or whether or not it has walk on women but a sport that prefers Danny Lockwood to some others I could mention deserves all it gets!

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

The thing is that each little step adds up and suddenly companies still doing these things start to look out of place and dated.

I should add I dont have issues with companies using this kind of tactic, sports need to decide whether that is what they want, i dont think it should be banned but sports make their own choices. In both instances the sports in conjunction with broadcasters have decided to move on from this.

Darts are within their rights to keep walk on girls and fans can choose whether yo support that sport, and broadcasters and sponsors can decide if they want to support them.

With the grid girls argument I do wonder if it is as much about f1 seeing that they could use the “grid girl” role for other, better, purposes. It’s not going to do them huge harm but now buy not having “grid girls” that opens the circuits options for how they do what “grid girls” used to do... commercial opportunities etc. For example could Dove resurrect its “real women” campaign and pay to have them hold the placards etc (this is just an example and I use it because it is almost the atithesis of the “grid girl”) therefore making more money for the track instead of them having to hire the girls.. 

equally is it levelling the playing field... seem to remember Abu Dhabi girls are dressed in fly emirates uniforms.. is it a case of just making the option of not having them available to all tracks... plus it’s good publicity. 

[RP London]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42950040

Grid girls being replaced by Grid Kids.. up and coming motor racers... if they had announced this all in one announcement half the argument of "pandering to feminism" would have disappeared as this seems an eminently sensible idea and quite exciting for the kids... of course the argument would have been that you could have had both but it would certainly have taken some of the sting out of it. for a group that is supposedly so media savvy it seems a bit of a mess up.

[Mattrhino]

14 hours ago, RP London said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42950040

Grid girls being replaced by Grid Kids.. up and coming motor racers... if they had announced this all in one announcement half the argument of "pandering to feminism" would have disappeared as this seems an eminently sensible idea and quite exciting for the kids... of course the argument would have been that you could have had both but it would certainly have taken some of the sting out of it. for a group that is supposedly so media savvy it seems a bit of a mess up.

Just as I thought, they are removing PR girls only from the grid. Hardly a revolution of ethics from the F1 bosses. Alot of former grid girls have spoken out saying "this is not defending women, but defending the women who feel threatend by other women in a career they know nothing about" most said they loved the job and never felt uncomfortable and the outfits were tasteful.

Seems a good idea in theory but in practice how are you going to put kids in 40 + degree heat of a F1 track.

[Mattrhino]

On 03/02/2018 at 3:28 PM, RP London said:

With the grid girls argument I do wonder if it is as much about f1 seeing that they could use the “grid girl” role for other, better, purposes. It’s not going to do them huge harm but now buy not having “grid girls” that opens the circuits options for how they do what “grid girls” used to do... commercial opportunities etc. For example could Dove resurrect its “real women” campaign and pay to have them hold the placards etc (this is just an example and I use it because it is almost the atithesis of the “grid girl”) therefore making more money for the track instead of them having to hire the girls.. 

equally is it levelling the playing field... seem to remember Abu Dhabi girls are dressed in fly emirates uniforms.. is it a case of just making the option of not having them available to all tracks... plus it’s good publicity. 

The grid girls were usually dressed in oufits of the sponsors of that race i.e Fly Emirates or Santander etc.. or in traditional dress of that country to promote tourism. They do not wear bikinis or lingerie, that is why these analogies with strip clubs etc is ridiculous.

[Oxford]

On 2/3/2018 at 8:39 AM, Dave T said:

A bit like Page 3 in the Sun. Its what people always saw as harmless fun

And much the same can be said for Danny Lockwood's constant sneaky referencing to cultural/religious clothing ... What harm does it do?

While we seem unable to make the connection between accepted behaviour patterns and crimes, abuse and mistreatment this is what we're going to get.

And if you're not part of any solution what exactly are you?

[Ackroman]

On 03/02/2018 at 12:49 PM, RP London said:

The vast majority may not have an issue or be affected by it... but if there is a minority that are struggling because of it or are being objectified etc by a small proportion of men because of this sort of thing (ie a small minoroty of men look at nice looking girls, think bimbo and don't employ them for any thing else but being a "dolly bird") then surely in a civilised society it is up to the majority to stand up for the minority?

 

No they need to get over themselves. It's a Victorian attitude. The human body should be celebrated. Looking at a near perfect form is a joy to behold and can brighten up the dullest of sports, particularly F1.

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

No they need to get over themselves. It's a Victorian attitude. The human body should be celebrated. Looking at a near perfect form is a joy to behold and can brighten up the dullest of sports, particularly F1.

That’s all well and good, but why no men doing the same role? Or should only women’s forms be celebrated?