Rugby League - man's game!

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, DoubleD said:

I thought this thread wasn’t about free speech? 

Jeez, the sooner this thread is locked the better 

Nah.

Just delete the off topic posts and crack on with discussing the OP.

[Tommygilf]

25 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think if you are going to present divisive views so prominently in your paper I would personally be doing it off the back of something directly related to RL - this was driven by Darts removing the walk on girls, and ended up with a rant about burqas in Bradford.

In the week of the Womens SL launch I find it a bit disappointing.

I agree to be fair mate which is why I put the last and most important sentence on its own. 

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Just seen Danny Lockwoods article from the rival RL newspaper to the LE.

I wont quote it all, but here's a few snippets:

Being critical of the Hearns stopping using the walk on ladies in Darts "thats all we need - a feeble turncoat who runs scared from the braying feminist banshees, suddenly running a mans sport".

Following a rant about PC: "Rugby League is a mans sport, even when it is being played by women, people in wheelchairs, or under 7s".

Referring to coveribg cheerleaders up, "making them dress up in the full black Zorro outfits like the ladies wear in Dewsbury and Bradford".

"If the walk on totty is out"...

 

Seems a good bloke writing a lovely opinion piece. Is he right?

 

 

My problem is the general misuse of the language here.. "mans sport", "feminist banshees", "feeble turncoat". 

so lets look at them:

Mans sport:- i think he means a tough sport, hard sport, one of the toughest sports where you have to be physically taking a pounding, physically strong but also very fit across the park (a fine balance not struck in many other sports). He has put it badly, very badly, and in a way that today is bordering on unacceptable (agree or disagree if that should be the case but times move on and it is). 

Feminist banshees:- without wanting to get into the "feminism" side of this and the argument from that side, there was a great show on Radio 5 Live a few months ago about the "Grid Girls" in formula 1 and is worth a listen. Is this decision made purely on "feminist grounds" or is there much more behind it? what may they be replaced with? is the sponsor saying I dont think this is a great image for us to be associated with?  what may be worth looking at more so is why he is doing this as there may be a business sense to it too.

Feeble turncoat:- turncoat from what? these things werent happening way back when, they are all relatively knew into our sport, cheerleaders are from the Super League era this wouldnt be taking away the essence of the game.. 

we then move on to the casual racism which just isnt necessary... actually the more clothing idea for "grid girls" is being used as you can fit more sponsors logos on it, plus it makes people in general feel a little more comfortable.. equally they are not that scantily clad in the depths of february as they get given a little more to wear at those times thank god. 

and last but not least on language... Totty... I think that pretty much sums the man up!

If he changed some of the language or maybe researched it a bit more I wouldnt mind so much but he has made some big assumptions and he has used outdated language to describe what could be a fair point. 

Cheerleading is an unbelievable sport if you look at proper cheerleading and would complement RL very well at half time etc.. but they dont need to be wearing next to nothing and there are many blokes who do it too.. all of which is fine by me. What we see with the scantily clad ladies on the side of the pitch (that I think are the ones he is talking about) is a distraction to the game, one I can take or leave happily, for many people they are too far away to see them anyway. The girls themselves might love being part of the occasion etc and that is fantastic but none of what he says justifies them being there, if they are there because everyone likes it and the girls are happy to do it fine but not because "its a mans game" or that getting rid of them is bending over for the "feminist banshees".. the article has some fair questions but the way it is written isnt very good and the points he makes are poorly put across. 

However, describing them as Totty (i know he is talking about the darts girls here) and wanting to see them in next to nothing worries me as at many RL clubs you are looking at a fair few girls under the age of 16.. 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I agree to be fair mate which is why I put the last and most important sentence on its own. 

Your post was right, that view will be pretty common, and I suppose an interesting discussion is whether we want that to be the perception of the game or whether we want ti challenge it 

I suggest that things like the Women in League round in Oz, the Family game tag, the emergence of Womens RL etc suggests we dont want it to be a prominent perception (even if it currently is).

My issue is less around the actual playing, it is around the fact that it is just telling my mum, three sisters, handful of aunties and cousins and my wife that this isnt a game for them. Its a mans game. I agree that he may mean it in a tough masculine way, but many of my favourite rl players were not the masculine brutes some worship.

I wonder if Mark Chapman said the same on CC Final day on the BBC if we would be happy with it, and if not why not.

[damp squib]

I wish people wouldn't confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom to be published in a nationally circulated magazine".

[JohnM]

Had to look up Danny Lockwood on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Lockwood  Nice guy!

The extracts reads like beer-talk to me.

Being critical of the Hearns stopping using the walk on ladies in Darts "thats all we need - a feeble turncoat who runs scared from the braying feminist banshees, suddenly running a mans sport"

TBH, the walk on girls don't add anything to the spectacle that aficionados could not find on more specialised web sites ( I am reliably informed). Sure, there are at the moment lots of braying feminist banshees at the moment but they do actually have something to bray about in a number of areas. To be honest, I don't give an arrer about darts anyway.

 

Following a rant about PC: "Rugby League is a mans sport, even when it is being played by women, people in wheelchairs, or under 7s".

Speed, strength, fitness, vision, skill, intellect, determination, pride, the will to win are not the exclusive preserve of the male species. I don't and probably wont watch womens RL, or women's, soccer et as is just not my interest..i don't have enough time to watch all the SL games and Premier League games as it is. That does no mean that no one else should watch, or that the game should not be appreciated by others,

 

Referring to covering cheerleaders up, "making them dress up in the full black Zorro outfits like the ladies wear in Dewsbury and Bradford".

Having watched cheerleaders on cold , wet and windy days , no wonder they want to cover up!  In fact, i thinks that the game could do much better on the cheerleader front, without changing the kit they wear. A dozen young girls don't provide much of a spectacle ..they seem to get lost on the pitch. Need  at least 20 or 30 for a decent dance routine as a spectacle. If I ran an SL club I'd be promoting the hell out of the cheerleading side of things by promoting local groups, competitions, with much large cheerleader squads as a way of attracting more girls to our sport ..and they bring their families along with them

 

"If the walk on totty is out"..

pub talk, oaf.

 

[DoubleD]

32 minutes ago, Dave T said:

More sarcasm im afraid. Sorry.

Its a very valid discussion - not a clue why a couple of you are finding it such an issue tbh.

The issue I had was your sarcastic comment at the end which whether deliberate or not, was likely to incite a reaction. It was unnecessary.

I agree with some, although not a lot of what he says (particularly the language he uses), although without sitting down and having a conversation with him, I wouldn't be able to make a full judgement on his opinions. Sadly though society has become all too intolerant - you only have to look at the AOB for that

[Dave T]

I found the "people in wheelchairs" point unnecessary. Are the males that play in wheelchairs not men anyway? Or do they just count as half?

[Mattrhino]

Ridiculous article that shouldn't have been published.

Although I agree about the initial point regarding the darts getting rid of the page 3 girls as silly.

[Dave T]

Just now, DoubleD said:

The issue I had was your sarcastic comment at the end which whether deliberate or not, was likely to incite a reaction. It was unnecessary.

I agree with some, although not a lot of what he says (particularly the language he uses), although without sitting down and having a conversation with him, I wouldn't be able to make a full judgement on his opinions. Sadly though society has become all too intolerant - you only have to look at the AOB for that

I didnt give the sarcastic comment much thought tbh. But had i been more explicit as per my follow up, it wasnt to incite a reaction - it was a one-liner of my view. 

I'm not a fan of Lockwood from what little i have seen and heard of him.

[Spidey]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Just seen Danny Lockwoods article from the rival RL newspaper to the LE.

I wont quote it all, but here's a few snippets:

Being critical of the Hearns stopping using the walk on ladies in Darts "thats all we need - a feeble turncoat who runs scared from the braying feminist banshees, suddenly running a mans sport".

Following a rant about PC: "Rugby League is a mans sport, even when it is being played by women, people in wheelchairs, or under 7s".

Referring to coveribg cheerleaders up, "making them dress up in the full black Zorro outfits like the ladies wear in Dewsbury and Bradford".

"If the walk on totty is out"...

 

Seems a good bloke writing a lovely opinion piece. Is he right?

 

 

I find most of his columns rubbish. These sorts of comments doesn’t surprise me in the slightest 

[gingerjon]

Just now, Dave T said:

I found the "people in wheelchairs" point unnecessary. Are the males that play in wheelchairs not men anyway? Or do they just count as half?

Contrary to what some think I'm not a huge fan of 'gotcha' because people can easily mis-speak or even badly phrase something and put across an implied meaning they didn't intend.

But ...

... our man Danny is both the writer and publisher here. He has, according to a video I've just watched of him with Tommy Robinson, several decades experience in journalism. He will know what he is writing and what it means.

And there is no way to read that other than disabled people's contributions simply being unimportant compared to able bodied. And, frankly, that's an attitude that can do one.

[Tommygilf]

18 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Your post was right, that view will be pretty common, and I suppose an interesting discussion is whether we want that to be the perception of the game or whether we want ti challenge it 

I suggest that things like the Women in League round in Oz, the Family game tag, the emergence of Womens RL etc suggests we dont want it to be a prominent perception (even if it currently is).

My issue is less around the actual playing, it is around the fact that it is just telling my mum, three sisters, handful of aunties and cousins and my wife that this isnt a game for them. Its a mans game. I agree that he may mean it in a tough masculine way, but many of my favourite rl players were not the masculine brutes some worship.

I wonder if Mark Chapman said the same on CC Final day on the BBC if we would be happy with it, and if not why not.

Exactly. I personally view RL as a game that should be and generally is as inclusive as possible to all regardless of x, y or z. I don't think the sport has an image of not being 'tough enough' so in essence its a nonsense point with no basis and as you've said its been used as a preclude to a view on the darts rather than RL. Indeed I totally agree with JohnM, this is oafish pub talk at best and should really have not made it to publication in its current form. 

To be fair it makes life a bit more interesting if controversial ideas are just floated out (and I don't know the readership stats for LW but I would think they are significantly lower than a live CC broadcast on the beeb) but I sincerely hope that Lockwood and LW won't run a campaign along these lines. Having said all that I personally read LE as I prefer the tone and don't read Lockwood because I don't have to. 

[RP London]

11 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Had to look up Danny Lockwood on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Lockwood  Nice guy!

The extracts reads like beer-talk to me.

Being critical of the Hearns stopping using the walk on ladies in Darts "thats all we need - a feeble turncoat who runs scared from the braying feminist banshees, suddenly running a mans sport"

TBH, the walk on girls don't add anything to the spectacle that aficionados could not find on more specialised web sites ( I am reliably informed). Sure, there are at the moment lots of braying feminist banshees at the moment but they do actually have something to bray about in a number of areas. To be honest, I don't give an arrer about darts anyway.

 

Following a rant about PC: "Rugby League is a mans sport, even when it is being played by women, people in wheelchairs, or under 7s".

Speed, strength, fitness, vision, skill, intellect, determination, pride, the will to win are not the exclusive preserve of the male species. I don't and probably wont watch womens RL, or women's, soccer et as is just not my interest..i don't have enough time to watch all the SL games and Premier League games as it is. That does no mean that no one else should watch, or that the game should not be appreciated by others,

 

Referring to covering cheerleaders up, "making them dress up in the full black Zorro outfits like the ladies wear in Dewsbury and Bradford".

Having watched cheerleaders on cold , wet and windy days , no wonder they want to cover up!  In fact, i thinks that the game could do much better on the cheerleader front, without changing the kit they wear. A dozen young girls don't provide much of a spectacle ..they seem to get lost on the pitch. Need  at least 20 or 30 for a decent dance routine as a spectacle. If I ran an SL club I'd be promoting the hell out of the cheerleading side of things by promoting local groups, competitions, with much large cheerleader squads as a way of attracting more girls to our sport ..and they bring their families along with them

 

"If the walk on totty is out"..

pub talk, oaf.

 

covering up also adds sponsorship opportunities (so they said on the Radio 5 show) which is interesting.. plus I am unlikely to buy my daughter hot pants and a crop top but leggings is a possibility.. so actually more merch opportunities.. 

obviously what I really want to buy both kids is a mug but thats not happening anytime soon!!

[Hopping Mad]

So, you're saying rugby league has more than one trade newspaper? Some sort of rival to League Express? Wow. Who knew?

[Bedford Roughyed]

22 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Had to look up Danny Lockwood on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Lockwood  Nice guy!

He was on Newsnight a few weeks ago.  

[Desert Skipper]

Anyway, back to Women’s RL...   is it a man’s game only for men?   Not in my opinion, but I will only pay big money to watch the men’s game because by natural default men are bigger, stronger and therefore PURELY IN MY OPINION I think I enjoy the man’s game more.   I’m not sexist, bigoted I just enjoy it the way it is.

It’s the same reason I wouldn’t enjoy watching a team of short, unskilled guys with thinning hair (like myself) playing in the NBA.   I’m not against it, just wouldn’t be as fun to watch (in my opinion).   On second thoughts ?

[Copa]

Even Muslim women are made for rugby league. It’s a sport for everybody. This is in Sydney.

 

 

[Spidey]

Just now, Copa said:

Even Muslim women are made for rugby league. It’s a sport for everybody. This is in Sydney.

 

 

Best not show this to Lockwood....

[gingerjon]

8 minutes ago, Desert Skipper said:

It’s the same reason I wouldn’t enjoy watching a team of short, unskilled guys with thinning hair (like myself) playing in the NBA.   I’m not against it, just wouldn’t be as fun to watch (in my opinion).   On second thoughts ?

I think there may be some value in seeing short unskilled guys have a go at basketball. It'd keep YouTube in comedy clips for a while anyway.

 

[jacksy]

2 hours ago, RabbitRhinoovOZ said:

But for some reason I find women playing RL very off putting so I don't watch it, There for RL to me is still very much a mans game.

Off putting? Can you not admire the toughness, resilience and bravery of the  Jillaroos and the Fearns?

[Bob8]

6 minutes ago, jacksy said:

Off putting? Can you not admire the toughness, resilience and bravery of the  Jillaroos and the Fearns?

It is rare that I can defend  RabbitRhinoovOZ, but he can find things off putting if he likes.  As long as he is not blaming whomever is playing for his reaction, that is fine.

[Chrispmartha]

Danny Lockwood comes across to me as a bit of a dinosaur with some pretty abhorrent views on certain issues, he is perfectly entitled to those just as I am perfectly entitled to comment on his rants.

 

That out of the way, I think it's great that there is an emphasis on getting women involved in the sport both on and off the pitch, RL is a sport and our history shows it is inclusive and prepared to embrace change, quite the opposite of Mr Lockwood.

[Kayakman]

8 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Danny Lockwood comes across to me as a bit of a dinosaur with some pretty abhorrent views on certain issues, he is perfectly entitled to those just as I am perfectly entitled to comment on his rants.

 

That out of the way, I think it's great that there is an emphasis on getting women involved in the sport both on and off the pitch, RL is a sport and our history shows it is inclusive and prepared to embrace change, quite the opposite of Mr Lockwood.

His views are really outdated...get as many women involved as possible in Rugby League....they bring a flair and energy that only the girls can harness.  I love women and I love womens rugby.

I enjoy watching womens hockey more than mens in many ways, and many other Canadians do also...watch our ladies rip up the Olympics!

GO GIRLS GO!

[Chrispmartha]

6 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

His views are really outdated...get as many women involved as possible in Rugby League....they bring a flair and energy that only the girls can harness.  I love women and I love womens rugby.

I enjoy watching womens hockey more than mens in many ways, and many other Canadians do also...watch our ladies rip up the Olympics!

GO GIRLS GO!

Agreed I want as many people watching and playing RL as possible and some of the women RL was really good.

 

I find his other comments more telling though, not liking women RL is one thing but his obviously sexism, intolerance to people from different ethnic backgrounds and his content for disable people is just abhorrent and archaic.