Widnes problems

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

VIQI is like LISA at Leigh and BISA at Bradford , they are idependant supporters assocoiations , where fans commit to pay usually by direct debit a fixed amount each month , which the club then calls upon as and when needed , but it can be denied if the committe deams so , but ALL the money going into it is for the club , usually for player contract payments

The main problem with relying on such a scheme is the money is in nowhere near guaranteed. How many signing up now will still be contributing in 3, 6 or 12 months time?

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Things like this will happen as the game has ultimately failed to properly increase commercial value, through sponsorship, media deals and this means that ticket income needs to cover the bills, but then we have created such a bargain basement base that we get little from them. 

Other sports in the local areas are similarly priced but commercially they are much stronger.

We haven't reall6 grown any income stream that well.

It could also be easily argued that the game is at its natural level. As I keep saying, just because you, me and a few 10s of thousands  of others think it's TGG doesn't make it so! That fact really has to be recognised before the game can grow in this country.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

11 hours ago, Dave T said:

In a thread called Widnes problems on an RL forum, it is a worthy discussion around what has happened and trying to understand why, so yes it matters. 

I'm not sure why people are being obtuse on this one. Almost all sports admin stories have articles detailing what happened, it is of public interest.

Companies go into admin all the time without someone calling in the debt. There are clear advantages of doing so before you really get into the mire. As I said folk in charge of sports clubs are castigated for not doing as they would in a normal business environment. As for public interest, they are a plc and only the shareholders have any real right to information.

[Rupert Prince]

3 hours ago, tuutaisrambo said:

but back then you had to go to the game on a horse

Back then you came by bus, in my case the No19.

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

VIQI is like LISA at Leigh and BISA at Bradford , they are idependant supporters assocoiations , where fans commit to pay usually by direct debit a fixed amount each month , which the club then calls upon as and when needed , but it can be denied if the committe deams so , but ALL the money going into it is for the club , usually for player contract payments

That is now way to run a business.

[Dave T]

36 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

It could also be easily argued that the game is at its natural level. As I keep saying, just because you, me and a few 10s of thousands  of others think it's TGG doesn't make it so! That fact really has to be recognised before the game can grow in this country.

I think that argument is easily dismissed. The fact we can stage a profitable World Cup with some very impressive crowds shows the potential that we just don't continue to capitalise on. Even the glimmers of good stuff in 2017 haven't been followed up on and England probably won't even play this year.

Then we have shoddy efforts around major events, and we shoot ourselves in the foot over things like the Challenge Cup this year.

The 'we are at our level' point only really works if you are doing your core stuff well. When you are performing worse than recent history shows you can, and you are making stupid mistakes it shows you are failing to capitalise and grow the game.

[JonM]

1 hour ago, WidnesSamatty said:

If twitter is to believed it seems like this is one of three remaining consortia trying to buy the Vikings. The complication appears to be that Steve Dale wants to buy the stadium too and the council don't want to sell.

[Oliver Clothesoff]

2 hours ago, WidnesSamatty said:

Who’s Terri Kearney?

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I think that argument is easily dismissed. The fact we can stage a profitable World Cup with some very impressive crowds shows the potential that we just don't continue to capitalise on. Even the glimmers of good stuff in 2017 haven't been followed up on and England probably won't even play this year.

Then we have shoddy efforts around major events, and we shoot ourselves in the foot over things like the Challenge Cup this year.

The 'we are at our level' point only really works if you are doing your core stuff well. When you are performing worse than recent history shows you can, and you are making stupid mistakes it shows you are failing to capitalise and grow the game.

I've watched the game for over 50 years and have been told over all that time that we will grow. Still waiting, and I'd wager I still will be when I go off to push up the daisies. We've had countless folk coming in as the 'saviour' and none have been successful - although some on here know all the answers! Fact is outside of the heartlands (and even in the heartlands if we're honest) very few folk are actually interested. The odd few games getting 'big' crowds and the WC making a profit could easily be put down to 'novelty' value. Let's take the more successful, bigger clubs who really should be shining examples. How much have they grown in the last 20 years?  

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

2 hours ago, WidnesSamatty said:

Strip what assets exactly?

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

The main problem with relying on such a scheme is the money is in nowhere near guaranteed. How many signing up now will still be contributing in 3, 6 or 12 months time?

People paying for a ticket isnt guaranteed either is it , especially if results dont go well , do you have a contract that guarantee's your income for life ?

Generally at Leigh we find they tend to stay until things pick up , then you do lose some , perhaps as their personal circumstances alter , as they tend to do , but many continue till they die , its called being a fan of your home town club , but then again we have a HKR fan who is still contributing after a decade , cheers Peter

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

Back then you came by bus, in my case the No19.

That is now way to run a business.

Havent a clue what you are talking about , these are supporters associations , they are run voluntary and dont take any money out , they are usually the focal point for the fans to help the clubs outside of just buying tickets and merchandice

They arent the clubs primary sources of income , and unfortunatly what tends to happen is the clubs will actually start to include these donations in their yearly budgets , when in truth they shouldnt , then again there's lots of things clubs shouldnt do , but they still do them

Have you ever been involved with the management/ownership of the proffessional sports club ?

[Dave T]

19 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

I've watched the game for over 50 years and have been told over all that time that we will grow. Still waiting, and I'd wager I still will be when I go off to push up the daisies. We've had countless folk coming in as the 'saviour' and none have been successful - although some on here know all the answers! Fact is outside of the heartlands (and even in the heartlands if we're honest) very few folk are actually interested. The odd few games getting 'big' crowds and the WC making a profit could easily be put down to 'novelty' value. Let's take the more successful, bigger clubs who really should be shining examples. How much have they grown in the last 20 years?  

Rugby League is no different to other sports. It is quite similar to another sport that has expanded pretty well. 

RL hasn't not expanded because people aren't interested, it is because of a whole myriad of reasons, politically, financially etc. 

As a pure sport though, there is no reason why RU can grow into new areas but RL can't. 

Saying people aren't interested isn't the root cause. As we have seen in Toronto, interest can be cultivated. Having the money, contacts and strategies to do that is the issue.

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Rugby League is no different to other sports. It is quite similar to another sport that has expanded pretty well.

RL hasn't not expanded because people aren't interested, it is because of a whole myriad of reasons, politically, financially etc.

As a pure sport though, there is no reason why RU can grow into new areas but RL can't.

Saying people aren't interested isn't the root cause. As we have seen in Toronto, interest can be cultivated. Having the money, contacts and strategies to do that is the issue.

Mostly the money Dave , you can then buy the rest

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I think that argument is easily dismissed. The fact we can stage a profitable World Cup with some very impressive crowds shows the potential that we just don't continue to capitalise on. Even the glimmers of good stuff in 2017 haven't been followed up on and England probably won't even play this year.

Then we have shoddy efforts around major events, and we shoot ourselves in the foot over things like the Challenge Cup this year.

The 'we are at our level' point only really works if you are doing your core stuff well. When you are performing worse than recent history shows you can, and you are making stupid mistakes it shows you are failing to capitalise and grow the game.

What happened to games down under? If Hull and Wigan made £500k each then suck it up and go down to offer some pre season. You could rotate teams annually.

Given the shoestring finances, that amount is decent to annual income. 

Beggars can't be choosers, but nothing is followed up.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Mostly the money Dave , you can then buy the rest

21k turned up for Sydney. Eventually we sold out Elland Road for the third test.

There is interest there. The game is simply run by Muppets on stupidly inflated salaries. 

 

[Padge]

Support for Widnes from strange places.

[gittinsfan]

7 hours ago, Leonard said:

Sorry - you have lost me. 

Me too

[Rupert Prince]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Havent a clue what you are talking about , these are supporters associations , they are run voluntary and dont take any money out , they are usually the focal point for the fans to help the clubs outside of just buying tickets and merchandice

They arent the clubs primary sources of income , and unfortunatly what tends to happen is the clubs will actually start to include these donations in their yearly budgets , when in truth they shouldnt , then again there's lots of things clubs shouldnt do , but they still do them

Have you ever been involved with the management/ownership of the proffessional sports club ?

It's no way to fun a business when you have to negotiate with a complete out side body.

[Dave T]

8 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Mostly the money Dave , you can then buy the rest

Agreed, however I'm not convinced we have invested even the money we have had that smartly! But it is easy to say that, and in the main when you are living hand to mouth you will make short term decisions.

[Dave T]

8 hours ago, Leonard said:

What happened to games down under? If Hull and Wigan made £500k each then suck it up and go down to offer some pre season. You could rotate teams annually.

Given the shoestring finances, that amount is decent to annual income. 

Beggars can't be choosers, but nothing is followed up.

Another good example of my point. I hope things change a bit with SLE in that they share the risk and the rewards, so that some initiatives that were dismissed as costly can be funded and the risk would be relatively small per club.

And whilst I disagree with scotchy on the central funding point, there is a question of what could be funded with that £4-5m per year routed outside of the top flight? I wouldn't want it just going to the clubs, but could it drive some real initiatives?

[Dave T]

8 hours ago, Leonard said:

21k turned up for Sydney. Eventually we sold out Elland Road for the third test.

There is interest there. The game is simply run by Muppets on stupidly inflated salaries. 

 

This is why I disagree with Les Tonk's original post that people are not interested. It isn't that they can't be made interest, its that we dont even bother with the vast majority of the population of the country and then the globe.

Since I moved to Edinburgh 10 years ago, it has surprised me how little a thing Rugby League is outside of towns like Warrington.

There is an odd narrative in RL that people are not interested in things. How about thee Roosters v Wigan crowd at the SFS a few years back - 31k there - their 2nd highest crowd of the year, and more than double their average that year. But hey, nobody is interested!

[RP London]

12 hours ago, WidnesSamatty said:

charge your phone!!!

[Guest]

https://forty20rl.podbean.com/

Finally listened to this week's episode.

The first 20 odd mins are of interest with regard to Widnes (if you can get past know it all RSW doing his usual).

Takeaways (quoting from memory) appear to be:

1. £1k in bank.

2. £375k of the £500k in parachute money gone.

3. Debts of £800k.

4. Already had a month's advance of championship money.

5. £120k or £130k (can't remember) per month on wages.

6. Rent is only £10k per month.

7. Super league money runs to December, so up until December they would have got a full allocation, even though they were relegated earlier. 

8. I think comments were made on Director salaries. Nothing specific but to the effect they had heard they were substantial.

9. Medical costs seem very high. They quoted it is £10k for an ACL. They injuries last season must have been ruinous to pay for - but the price of a gypsy artificial pitch. Given such risks, the club simply can't field a team without money to pay for these if they happen in future games. 

So we can probably say:

1. Between the Nov 17 accounts and the admin, there have been repayments to creditors of £900k ish (i.e. £1.7m less £800k).

2. This ignores any potential losses/profits made in the final Super League season. However, we know the wage bill must have been small.

3. We have no idea who these creditors were that were repaid, i.e. were they trade creditors pressing for repayment once the club went down or debts to Directors etc. 

4. We do know that Directors apparently wrote off £370k in loans. But we don't know if that was all they put in, i.e. were repaid an amount?, or even if it was actually money introduced and simply not accrued salary written off.

5. Income wise the season ticket money will be done. If you estimate 2k to 2.5k season tickets at £200 a pop that is £400k to £500k (might well be more). Merchandise money is gone and £375k of the parachute money and 3 months of their championship allocation are done.

6. In terms of prize money all I can find is the following as an indication from an old thread:

1st £750,000

2nd £700,000

3rd £500,000

4th £450,000

5th £275,000

6th £225,000

Clearly 9/12ths of that is not a lot when you add in £125k of parachute money left.

My guess is that they are due c. £350k to £400k more in money this season.

7. Leaving aside the unpaid rent, the Council has no option to wait, that leaves about £400k of creditors. They might well take a settlement or wait as well.

8. The killer is the wage bill. They have no hope of paying that with the money they have. Even if you shift moveable assets like Gelling and Inu - it is still massive and too big for the income stream.

The wage bill and the cost of games are the reason for the need to appoint administrators, with the inability to pay them appearing to stem from funds being used to pay off creditors.  

9. I would want to know who were the £900k of creditors paid off and how on earth they thought they could do that and run the current squad. The income from parachute payments, funding, season tickets etc would have been enough to run the club, but you can't do that AND repay the creditors. It seems like complete mismanagement. Never mind the comments made about the financial position.

Sure - if people are threatening to wind you up then pay them. But then don't go out and sign Harrison Hansen.

Moving forward, the issue then is what to do with the monies raised. Unlike Bradford it is ring fenced. 

My thought is that if the wage bill can't be cut then it would be throwing good money after bad. Especially when you can see that the drop in income next year from being even lower down the league will be sizeable. Putting in a couple of hundred grand now just delays a further day of reckoning later in the year with the same monthly wage bill..

I don't see the council being an issue, they have little choice but to wait and £10k per month is not huge for rent (if accurate), but they would need to cut a deal with other creditors and players to be viable. Is that possible?

The alternative is to simply liquidate the club, start in league one with a new slate and use the money to drive that - for example to retain youth sides and development. However, you then have issues of the council needing to write off £350k.

Of course this ignores someone coming in with cash to sort it out.

My tuppence worth and none of the above is supposed to be authoritative. Just some conclusions based upon the publicly filed accounts, some statements from the club, comments on a decent podcast and trying to join the dots.

 

 

[Spidey]

The £10k rent is the one I'm struggling with - doesn't seem a lot in the grand scheme of things, but then why do Widnes owe circa £350k to the council?  That's three years rent - must be more to it, things just don't add up (from my simple way of looking at things)

Also, interesting to know if the £120k wage bill includes the outgoing directors which could be (if rumours are true) £30k-£40k per month

[David Shepherd]

So when is D-Day?