If we brought back licensing....

[Gooleboy]

My point was regarding Leeds RU is the level of support, the RL fans have never watched them, the same as RU fans down South, the Midlands or wherever won't go to watch RL, as has already been proved with previous expansionist efforts.

[GUBRATS]

4 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

My point was regarding Leeds RU is the level of support, the RL fans have never watched them, the same as RU fans down South, the Midlands or wherever won't go to watch RL, as has already been proved with previous expansionist efforts.

You mean that despite being located on a large city surrounded by litterally hundreds of amateur union clubs they havent grown to any real size , quite possibly because they are located in a RL and football city , in the same way as plonking a RL club in a primarily football and RU city will most likely not result in that club becoming ' Mahoosive ' just because its in a city ?

[TIWIT]

12 hours ago, SL17 said:

...and theres nothing super about the expansion clubs either.Possibly if they are around for another 125 years they may add weight to your comment.

Get real. Without new ideas and new leadership this game will be lucky to be alive at all in 25 years.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, TIWIT said:

Get real. Without new ideas and new leadership this game will be lucky to be alive at all in 25 years.

You're a picture of ' happiness ' arent you ?

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Get real. Without new ideas and new leadership this game will be lucky to be alive at all in 25 years.

It all depends on the movers and shakers, as many as 5 or 6 NA clubs will lessen those 25 years you suggest.

[yipyee]

14 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Leeds RU did not fail as such. Their £Billionnaire owner Mr. Caddick still runs them for what they are, a Rugby Union club with substance not a rich man's fantasy. They have to do the business on and off the field and Mr. Caddick appears to be be happy with that which is fair enough. North Leeds and north of Leeds is very much a Rugby Union area and historically has been such. They had an audience when they used to be called "Headingley". They are a proper club not a "failure" read on.....

Thanks for your politeness. I have included points you made on another thread for expedience.  

I don't think you understand the concept of M62 clubs if you include Liverpool and Manchester.  Both cities were Rugby Union cities and their major RU clubs dated back long before Rugby League. In terms of which M62 RL clubs have "failed" I can find Bramley, Normanton and Brighouse Rangers "failing" in the professional ranks many years ago, but they are still very much alive and kicking in Amateur RL. In terms of other clubs "failing" they have their up's and down's.......

But they don't collapse like a pack of cards and disappear first time they hit the money buffers do they?

Whilst owners may come and go the support systems in the various M62 RL communities keep things going through thick and thin. You appear to believe "central funding" keeps some clubs alive when the Championship operated without central funding pre-1996 and for many years post 1996. Most of our clubs date from 1864 to 1890 so I do not think surviving for well over 100 years is failure especially where cups and trophies have been won over the years and those clubs have developed an RL infrastructure.

The phoney baloney clubs all survive on money alone, and when that is pulled everything disappears.

I agree with you that we have some substance in France, Wales and London, but we also have history there. In London we first started putting on big games in 1907 and before the advent of Fulham when playing RL was a sin, the Southern Rugby League was operating  in and around London. Equally France date back to the 1930's and in 1908 there were six Welsh clubs in the Rugby League. Where we do not have history and some roots of some sort the only thing that keeps the game alive there is money and it takes shed loads of it and once it runs out the whole thing dies as it never built anything of any substance.

And as you see with latest richest ever "expansion" club it isn't building any roots either. 

Your last paragraph I don't agree with at all. There is NO surplus business cash in RL and mergers won't create any, only large cheques gifted from private owners and directors creates a surplus to spend more. If you go to Hawai and gift Honolulu RLFC $$Billions I am sure they will survive for decades whether anyone but you as the owner is that bothered or not. But they won't "grow" they won't put down "roots".

And this is where the M62 succeeds, Widnes, York and Bradford go pop, and not long after they are back on the horse. Outside the M62 when the owner falls off the horse that's it. Yes let's bring back licensing and make it plain on the licence we will admit clubs that have a substantial RL infrastructure of support, not clubs like Honolulu RLFC dependent on a single wallet with no roots at all. 

The RFL/SL do not have surplus cash but they have a lot of money they distribute.

It does make me chuckle when people go irate at them for including Catalans in SL as they bring no away fans when in reality they are one of the top 6 supported clubs in SL and should break the attendance record this year.

Anyhow I digress my point is SL generates Sky money and some sponsorship money. This has been generated because of  a handful of top clubs. This money is then paid to some clubs who are making up the numbers. 

I agree that there are a few that are financed by millionaires but that is a red herring when you look at how and to whom the central funding is distributed. 

For me SL should look at a project area and have a 5 year plan hit the area hard central fund a SL team employ development officers, promotional teams,  host magic weekend there etc. Develop ameatur clubs and buy land to site these clubs on. This however is a topic for a seperate thread. 

[M j M]

 

15 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Leeds RU did not fail as such. Their £Billionnaire owner Mr. Caddick still runs them for what they are, a Rugby Union club with substance not a rich man's fantasy. They have to do the business on and off the field and Mr. Caddick appears to be be happy with that which is fair enough. North Leeds and north of Leeds is very much a Rugby Union area and historically has been such. They had an audience when they used to be called "Headingley". They are a proper club not a "failure" read on.....

Someone else quoted you so this bypassed my ignore user setting.

But FWIW:

Caddick is not a billionaire.

Caddick does not own Leeds RUFC. He has no shares in the company or its parent, he isn't a director.

They are continuing to rack up more losses at a frightening rate.

North Leeds isn't a rugby union area.

Headingley RU's crowds were tiny.

Over the past 20 years Leeds RUFC have probably racked up more losses than the entirety of the RL Championship clubs put together, including Bradford and Widnes. By any measure of the word they are an absolute, stinking, horrendous failure.

 

Apart from that you were your usual accurate self.

[Niels]

On 3/3/2019 at 7:14 PM, Smudger06 said:

Speaking as someone who invaded the pitch at post office road a few times in mass protest when the proposal was under consideration as a teen.....absolutely nothing has changed. The Clubs would seriously consider it, the vast majority of fans of all 3 Clubs would strongly oppose it. Therefore the clubs would not form a Joint Venture. These 3 Clubs muster 15k fans together each and every week out to the Rugby League grounds. 

I'd say 4k may follow a Calder Joint venture + maybe 2k new fans = 6k, 5k would continue to follow the 3 Clubs in a closed off from SL forever Championship.....a net loss of 4k fans in one of its strongest heartlands immediately....The realisation of a door never reopening for the Championship and dreams crushed forever would see a further loss of fans to the game....whilst the Calder team may get net gains at a rate comparable to the 3 Championship teams losses so no gaining back of the 4k loss in the 1st Place, not for at least 10 years anyhow. As Memories fade and hopes of p&r returning disappear then that new club may reach the 15k original level after about 15 to 20 years......will support grow after that? Who knows.

That, id guess is roughly the same across cheshire, cumbria, manchster, hull and S. Yorks So not much point in mergers........

I agree with your post. Also if there were mergers then there would be less local derbies which are the most profitable games attendance wise. Sky seem to prefer these also. 

 

[TIWIT]

3 hours ago, M j M said:

 

Someone else quoted you so this bypassed my ignore user setting.

But FWIW:

Caddick is not a billionaire.

Caddick does not own Leeds RUFC. He has no shares in the company or its parent, he isn't a director.

They are continuing to rack up more losses at a frightening rate.

North Leeds isn't a rugby union area.

Headingley RU's crowds were tiny.

Over the past 20 years Leeds RUFC have probably racked up more losses than the entirety of the RL Championship clubs put together, including Bradford and Widnes. By any measure of the word they are an absolute, stinking, horrendous failure.

 

Apart from that you were your usual accurate self.

You have to admit, being an absolute stinking horrendous failure for over 20 years is something of an accomplishment.

[Tommygilf]

20 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

You mean that despite being located on a large city surrounded by litterally hundreds of amateur union clubs they havent grown to any real size , quite possibly because they are located in a RL and football city , in the same way as plonking a RL club in a primarily football and RU city will most likely not result in that club becoming ' Mahoosive ' just because its in a city ?

They haven't grown because they've been poor and in general the northern rugby union demographic tends not to be your typical hardcore fan as you'd find in Football or RL. I've been around it for years and they're up against a lot of people who in spite of being RU to the bone, just don't care about pro club rugby in any real heartfelt sense. Success breeds success and they haven't had any either.

The city thing is a total misnomer - they're called "Yorkshire Carnegie" because they draw most of their support between far north Leeds and north Yorkshire ie Harrogate. They're barely visible, through choice I expect, in a lot of the rest of the city.

[Harry Stottle]

11 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They haven't grown because they've been poor and in general the northern rugby union demographic tends not to be your typical hardcore fan as you'd find in Football or RL. I've been around it for years and they're up against a lot of people who in spite of being RU to the bone, just don't care about pro club rugby in any real heartfelt sense. Success breeds success and they haven't had any either.

The city thing is a total misnomer - they're called "Yorkshire Carnegie" because they draw most of their support between far north Leeds and north Yorkshire ie Harrogate. They're barely visible, through choice I expect, in a lot of the rest of the city.

As I presume are the Rhino's Tommy, a quick check on the population of the city of Leeds in 2018 returns 809,372, averaging about 13 to 14,000 gates (taking the away fans into account) roughly 1.5% of the populas attend, also taking into account apparently they have a number of 'out of town' fans, not a very good return or interest from the 'locals'.

Just saying, not looking for any arguments or discussions simply pointing out the facts. 

[Oliver Clothesoff]

Mergers would turn more away from the game than it would gain. 

[Tommygilf]

19 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

As I presume are the Rhino's Tommy, a quick check on the population of the city of Leeds in 2018 returns 809,372, averaging about 13 to 14,000 gates (taking the away fans into account) roughly 1.5% of the populas attend, also taking into account apparently they have a number of 'out of town' fans, not a very good return or interest from the 'locals'.

Just saying, not looking for any arguments or discussions simply pointing out the facts. 

Whilst what you say is right Leeds do underperform in regards to crowds, (as do the football team in the largest 1 club city in Europe iirc), they're still visible in the city. Billboards near major roads posters in pubs, plenty of fans in the city centre wearing merch. One thing I think they should have done is get a shop in the city, whether on their own or shared with LUFC or Yorkshire cricket for example. 

Equally the 13-14k fans is from whilst half the ground hasn't been there. Realistically back when we had a full compliment of Stands Leeds were getting 15 to 19k every week.

[fevtom]

I agree that the problem isn't visibility. Leeds is a big city and would cost a fortune to plaster Leeds Rhinos everywhere, much more than it would to make Wigan or Leigh visible in their towns but in my experience the Rhinos do a decent job on a relatively small budget in sporting terms.

I would like to have seen them have a presence in the trinity shopping centre though. Instead of a small Leeds United store they could've shared a larger unit with Rhinos and maybe even had a few Yorkshire Carnegie and Yorkshire cricket shirts in there.

[GUBRATS]

13 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

A club in Toronto, New York, Florida? Robert Elstone and a new governance structure?

Widnes? Leigh? Keighley? You sure these clubs will survive?

Well certainly more chance than if we merged with Saints[Liverpool ], Wigan [ Manchester ] and Bradford as some loons have suggested

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Your point was nonsense with no relationship to the facts.

The 2nd biggest club in the comp financially, the current holders of the challenge cup are a new club, a merged club, a French club. Widnes are coming out of administration leigh reneged on their contracts and had to borrow players to finish the season.

Yes they are a new club , but not a combination of existing RFL pro clubs , our best go at that was Sheffield, Huddersfield,Hull and Gateshead , that worked really well

[Tommygilf]

16 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Leeds are fat and happy. Nowhere near operating at full capacity. Not really trying to do so. What would ge the point? Why stretch yourself or push boundaries when you can do nothing and still be the biggest club in the game? What's the point in strai ing yourself to get 20k every week when you can brake the richest club in the game and make a profit on 14/15k every week.

Leeds are a cash cow growth isn't really necessary. They can just sit back and milk the corporates. 

That's not a criticism of them by the way, it makes business sense for the environment they are in. 

I still think standing still is moving backwards to an extent. Headingley hasn't been full for a while. Equally Leeds have had minimal competition from Leeds United for the past 15 years - a point which we could see change dramatically. I still think we should be aiming to host at least 1 game a season at Elland Road due to the capacity at Headingley not being big enough.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I agree, though I think the lufc competition thing is hugely overstated. But we do little to reach out and grow to the mass market in Leeds. Though the club do do huge amounts of outreach in other ways

If they're in the premier League though they're going to be much more able to compete and take a big chunk of that mass market.

[GUBRATS]

19 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The were a merger of two clubs. The only reason they weren't RFL clubs is because they are French.

None of those you mention were mergers in real life, they were never really intended to be.

So nothing at all like the ' mergers ' suggested on these threads about ' mergers' , and yet they are used as an example for ' mergers ' by people who havent a clue

Oh so now its ' real life ' mergers , strange at the time they were mergers and like all the mergers suggested , they dont work , they are stupid idea's by stupid people

[GUBRATS]

21 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I mean other than widnes already dying twice and leigh existing at the whims of a scumbag who has no problem with not paying players and keighley spending all this off-season at deaths door, sure.

But still in existence , and next week , next year , and in twenty years time , still here

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Yes the hull and hudds mergers are nothing like what people are suggesting and yes Les Catalans are a merger like people are suggesting.

Just saying they are doesnt make it true , since I pointed out the difference nobody except you has even questioned it , because they know I am right , its the equivalent of HULL FC and HKR merging to have 1 club continue playing SL out of New Craven Park and a new club playing in the NRL out of the KC

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Like Bramley.

And widnes dont exist anymore. Nor Bradford. New clubs have taken their place. Like Crusaders and West Wales.

Somebody better tell the RFL

[M j M]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

If Leeds RUFC were a heartland RL club they would he held up as a reaso  for the absolute necessity for P+R and for the potential for growth in the heartlands. 

Call Leeds RUFC Halifax RLFC and it's a roaring success the very same people are holding up as a reason to focus on the heartlands.

Leeds RUFC have lost about £12m over the past 20 years. Nobody would call them a success if they were an RL club.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, M j M said:

Leeds RUFC have lost about £12m over the past 20 years. Nobody would call them a success if they were an RL club.

They call Toronto a success for something similar over 3 years

[RP London]

19 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Just saying they are doesnt make it true , since I pointed out the difference nobody except you has even questioned it , because they know I am right , its the equivalent of HULL FC and HKR merging to have 1 club continue playing SL out of New Craven Park and a new club playing in the NRL out of the KC

taking people's silence as some sort of affirmation that you are correct is an interesting way to go... i think most people are bored of the thread to be honest.

which BTW i am happy to admit i added to the boredom and it was during discussion i was having with you and Scotchy about Parky that this thread drifted away from most people.. it just seems to be 2-3 people now arguing in a circle. so i wouldnt say people agree, they just dont want to get further involved in a thread that should probably just die off.