Can Ralph Rimmer get Ottawa to the starting gate?

[The Parksider]

On 11/08/2019 at 02:18, Kayakman said:

Hey Parky...its been a while.   You are entitled to your opinion but I think that when you constantly recycle your old arguments it gets to people. 

You don't speak for "people", you are not the people's spokesperson.

As old as the arguments are they are not opinion - they are factual - No TV money and No players -  and they remain as questions to still answer. But you and the rest of the dreamers have spent 3 years pretending these serious issues do not exist as you can't answer them.

What is constantly re-cycled are so called achievements of TWP that you and other TWP fanatics invent that were never criteria for joining the RFL let alone Superleague. The glamour......The massive worldwide TV audience.......the brilliant Marketing..........

But not the massive multi-Million losses Argyle makes. Wow what a business plan to follow eh??

I'm entitled to an opinion on matters that could be debatable. I'm also entitled to state the facts and that's No NA players and No TV deal and an unsustainable business. You are of course quite entitled to spend 3 years ignoring the facts

20 hours ago, fighting irish said:

If a reserve grade team is compulsory for the Super League, how come there's no mention of Toronto in the 15 just named?

Surely they could run a reserve grade team in the UK? 

No they can't do this. Read it up. The reserves have to play home and away and so that means Toronto Reserves having to play at home in Toronto through the season, including ice and snow. 

Superleague have already pulled TWP on the first team being unable to play at home until Easter, let alone the reserves.

And the other big issue is that Argyle who has been paying for Championship clubs to travel to TWP says he won't pay for Superleague clubs to visit Toronto. You don't think for one second the Superleague bosses will pay do you?

Your pretty late to the debate aren't you, so maybe you can be excused for missing the signs and signals it's the end of the road for the American dream, even though McManus publicly said it was a few weeks ago. You just don't have to look far to understand it's over.

All that is left is do they carry on in the Championship, but I suspect on recent events, they won't, I suspect that as Ottawa didn't make any effort to organise starting in 2020 they too are gone before they even got going.

But maybe New York will come in in 2021 and show this tired old bunch of village clubs nobody has heard of run by parochial local businessmen come Dinosaurs whose world vision ends one way in St.Helens and the other way in Hull how to do it??

Where do we go with it on here? Probably 3 years of moaning about what a fantastic opportunity the game has thrown away.

If so perhaps I will be able to remind people they lost ££££Millions, they didn't produce any NA players (sacked a few mind) and they had to pay to be on TV (that's been turned off now) but I doubt anyone who was so enthusiastic about it all (to the point of clubs here suffering as they were replaced one by one by these dream clubs) will be still not be able to take such realities on board.

p.s.posted on RL fans Nobby resigned last Friday, this was shown on companies house online. Wether it's reet or not??

[Oxford]

On 11/08/2019 at 01:30, The Parksider said:

cowardice

 

On 11/08/2019 at 01:30, The Parksider said:

easy to be the tough guy under an anonymous name from a bedroom keyboard many miles away.

 

On 11/08/2019 at 01:30, The Parksider said:

Where is their integrity?

 

On 11/08/2019 at 01:30, The Parksider said:

childishly excusing your disgusting behaviour.

 

On 11/08/2019 at 01:30, The Parksider said:

Weasel words my friend...

Like most you fail to engage your brain, decide what you personally want to happen and chuck the insults at those who have a right to disagree, when pulled you provide the most insincere apology going........... 

 

On 11/08/2019 at 01:30, The Parksider said:

But such is the anonymous medium of the internet that no real discussion ever came out of that, just hundreds of posts declaring Parky is an idiot who should be put on ignore whilst "us lads" celebrate a new dawn for Rugby League here thanks to the innovation, foresight, genius, money etc of a couple of chancers.....

My name is Russell Johnson and I put Parky on ignore because this is his idea of what debate looks like. How's that for anonymous?

Parky?????

[Man of Kent]

43 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

Anyone know if there's any truth in the published Rumour in LW that  iLink Media are suing the TWP for unpaid bills?  iLink Media are their broadcast partner BTW......so it could be someone has added 1+ and got 3 due to the pulled games, or it could be another sign of their being a limit to their finances.

Don’t think it’s rumour but fact. It’s also been reported by the Canadian equivalent to the Press Association.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/citing-costs-the-toronto-wolfpack-cuts-broadcast-of-2-regular-season-games/ar-AAFufzY

[dealwithit]

33 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Don’t think it’s rumour but fact. It’s also been reported by the Canadian equivalent to the Press Association.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/citing-costs-the-toronto-wolfpack-cuts-broadcast-of-2-regular-season-games/ar-AAFufzY

Fact? How so?

Both parties think they are in the right. Might not even make it to court. 

Standard business activities and people jump on the bandwagon. 

[Kayakman]

9 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

To be fair to ALL posters on here, a great many have their own idea" what Rugby needs, be that expansion, P&R, Licences etc and we will never all see eye to eye. In the case of Parksider, he has simple repeated (like a gattling gun) the reality that Toronto are a loss making entity, who have no local players or player development program and who pay to have their games shown on TV.

Rather than put him on ignore, why not address his concerns that Toronto have failed to deliver a player or a TV deal. It is fair to be concerned, as it is in the cases of Wakefield or Castleford assuring the RFL that they would have new stadiums built "soon".....The promise of something inside the 5 year time line are looking just as weak, given we are 60% into that period and it has been reported that they are being chased for payment by their broadcast partner.
Putting someone on ignore because you disagree with them is pretty pointless. What you should do is debate them into seeing your point of view.

Perfectly reasonable if you are dealing with mature folks who are even willing to admit they lost an argument rater than responding to personal insult....sound familiar?

As for Parky..he simply has got to get some new material.   He is like an old standup comedian putting on the same show night after night to withering audience....he needs some new material.

[ojx]

23 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

Rather than put him on ignore, why not address his concerns that Toronto have failed to deliver a player or a TV deal. It is fair to be concerned, as it is in the cases of Wakefield or Castleford assuring the RFL that they would have new stadiums built "soon".....The promise of something inside the 5 year time line are looking just as weak, given we are 60% into that period and it has been reported that they are being chased for payment by their broadcast partner.
Putting someone on ignore because you disagree with them is pretty pointless. What you should do is debate them into seeing your point of view.

I agree, no point ignoring opinions that different from yours.The TV deal is a fair criticism, although it is something that would be negotiated behind closed doors and only unveiled when everything is agreed and Toronto are in SL. The local player argument is disingenuous because three years is not enough time to develop a pathway for local players. What I would like to see is a clear investment in the local community game and a transparent outline of how local players would be developed, even if that plan spans 15-20 years.TWP have not shown anything on this front.

Heartland clubs like Wakefield and Castleford can get away with it because they are already in SL and the game's governance is too weak to enforce standards. Like Widnes, if they weren't in SL, those teams would be part-time. As was stated on the BBC RL podcast a few weeks ago, the English game can probably only support about eight SL level teams at a high standard.

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, dealwithit said:

Fact? How so?

Both parties think they are in the right. Might not even make it to court. 

Standard business activities and people jump on the bandwagon. 

It’s a fact iLink is suing Toronto for an unpaid bill claim....

[Kayakman]

26 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

See, this is the point in question. Parksider hasn't "lost" anything, let alone an argument. He has repeatedly questioned two of the pillars of why Toronto were invited to play. He is correct that they have neither a development program nor a TV deal (at least not that we've been told about and TWP are never shy in coming out with big claims)

I Agree 100% with the poster who says development is too early to call, but other than a gimmick TV show, there's been little else other than piggy-backing on the Union lot.....a center for "Rugby Excellence" is one of the more clumsy things they've come out with.

In Terms of the TV deal. If Argyle is not paying for Travel and not delivering a TV deal than he's assuredly not seeing a cent from central funding in SL, which means his best hope is the other 10 sides carve up Torontos 1.8 million to cover those costs......but he's still left trying to polish Toronto v Wakefield in a sports world where none of the home fans or TV audience even know what "a wakefield" is?

Times change..things happen..the trick is to keep moving forward...as for the Wakefield thing its been mentioned before on here.  You have to understand that the fans over here don't really care where the English teams come from ....it all part of the karma over here.  Wakefield would draw the same as Leeds, as Wigan, as Salford and Castleford etc.  Its really not that important to people over here.

[The Parksider]

11 hours ago, ojx said:

No point ignoring opinions that different from yours.The TV deal is a fair criticism, although it is something that would be negotiated behind closed doors and only unveiled when everything is agreed and Toronto are in SL. The local player argument is disingenuous because three years is not enough time to develop a pathway for local players. What I would like to see is a clear investment in the local community game.

Thanks for your "opinions" Ojx.

Your wrong on the TV deal and are ignoring what Perez said about it. He was NOT talking about TWP finding a small paying deal on their own so they could "contribute" to the SKY deal. SKY do not want non-English clubs, they want English clubs whose English fans buy the English subscriptions.

When Perez explained what he meant by an NATV deal he explained it was a deal that would outstrip anything SKY could or would ever offer, because £200M was peanuts to NATV companies. He explained TWP would not get a significant TV deal on their own, he said (and my word this must be the 1000th. time I have quoted him saying this) he needed at least "5-6 North American clubs in Superleague to make Superleague transatlantic and give superleague enough American content to get that deal. That meant TWP, Hamilton, Boston, New York and Ottawa progressively coming into Superleague. 

That meant Salford, Wakefield, Castleford, Huddersfield and HKR being relegated to the championship.

Perez exposed himself badly for the utter dreamer he is if he ever thought this could happen, because here's another fact not an "opinion" - If SKY don't have at least 9 English clubs in, there is no SKY deal anymore. So Perez could not get to 5-6 NA clubs in Superleague as the SKY deal goes pop when 4 are in. (but facts don't worry the man) 

Here's another fact not an opinion - English SL clubs directors were never going to stand by and see their SL places and players shipped to America. Those SL clubs left in Perez's utter fantasy of a "plan" would not allow their SL partners to be relegated. FACT again. when HKR were relegated there was uproar amongst the SL bosses who tried to enlarge SL to get them back.

You say the "local player development is disingenuous" You know darn well the player development promised was not this at all. Perez promised to convert grid iron players to RL to provide the players, after his eight year stint with Canada RL getting nowhere growing the grass roots (so that's gone 10 years getting nowhere plus at least 10 more even if they bothered to set anything up now) He could not and did not say "oh Canadian players will be coming through in 10-15 years" HE SAID HE'D CONVERT GRID IRON PLAYERS "Pretty Quickly"....None appeared and what NA players TWP had they sacked.

None of what I post here is "Opinion" so don't try the game of pretending your alternative view of actual events is just as valid as mine.  I'm not forming "opinions" I'm trying to get you and Kayakman etc to admit the actual facts......The Perez plan is there for all to watch on You Tube.....but that's been ignored completely this last 3 years.

13 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

1. As I understand it (from the vague releases put out so far) the 11 UK based SL sides and a few Championship clubs have agreed to the reserve grade, as a way of offering kids a pathway to SL. As Toronto don't have any young prospects yet, it would seem they have been left out of it for now.

2. Anyone know if there's any truth in  unpaid bills?  

3. I Agree 100% with the poster who says development is too early to call, 

4. the "fans over there" that are the issue. 

Thanks for your support, go on You Tube and look up the Wood/Perez interview, listen to Perez's fantasies, and hear exactly what was promised in return for TWP entering the English game.

1. The 15 clubs who have entered reserves are now agreed and TWP did not join so TWP cannot enter Supereleague without reserves as the requirement was Mandatory. SL have stuffed them at the last minute. League Weekly's Danny Lockwood predicted this last week.

2. It appears there are mounting unpaid bills. The Billionaire may just well be cutting his losses from his limited Liability company, if he owed me anything I sure as heck would not bother making a claim for it, it would be my bad for trusting this "company" could ever turn a profit to pay bills.

3. Your wrong - again Perez never promised junior development because he was coming off the back of six years running  Canada RL trying to make that work and he failed badly - he had ONE success in Quin Ngwati whose now gone back to RU. Your falling for the trick they play on here where they change the required criteria for SL entry, to pretend TWP are meeting said criteria ........ It's grid iron conversions and TV money......it was never junior development "one day in the future" or "Eyeballs"........

4. The fans over there are NOT THE ISSUE -TWP fans pretend the fanbase and the 200 Million and growing worldwide TV eyeball audience they supposedly have are the successes of the club. This was never a measure of success at all, it was players and TV money the game here wanted not fans on free tickets 3,000 miles away.  Lenegan commented that it didn't matter how many fans they said they had if they aren't coming to click the turnstyles here. This is why TWP fans are now inventing this phoney army of English TWP fans who apparently swell crowds everywhere TWP play in England.

5. Ian Lenegan has now come out to follow Mr. McManus to support Toulouse in Superleague. ("I like toulouse and I rate them highly") (one home game a week in France would be very attractive for a french broadcaster")  Apparently Elstone wanted more money from Bein Sports so the latter pulled out. Superleague are now looking to sell that two club package deal to French TV. It's clear that they do not want Toronto Wolfpack in Superleague and rightly so.

6. It's looking like the unpaid bills, and cost cutting at TWP, and lenegan and McManus promoting Toulouse is telling the actual story.

7. Some time ago Argyle made a stupid inexplicable racist comment, that has enabled him to step down from the limelight, yet apparently his greatest moment was upon him - entry to SL - something he had never asked the Superleague for (so forget lawsuits because he has no automatic right to it as a guest club of the RFL only). It's my OPINION he found this a convenient way to leave the limelight before SL delivered the death blow to him publicly.

8. Someone pointed out on RL fans if you look on companies house Martin Vickers and Brian Noble are listed as officers of the TWP limited Liability company. Noble was down as resigning on the 9th. August. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10564680/officers

9. Although accepted to the RFL in principle, absolutely zero has happened at Ottawa and New York.

10. Who knows - maybe there'll be a last minute seizmic change of heart when TWP win the play off!!!

I'm not interested in "opinions" because there are enough actual facts to form an intelligent discussion on if they were just accepted and not conveniently ignored and altered, but we do not get that, because the facts are far too unpalatable for most TWP fans,who have put a lot of emotional capital in, to take.............

I'm very sorry about that (but less sorry to those who thought insults and calls for me to be banned were a great way to have a debate) but a Transatlantic league was never going to work, only destroy Superleague. (cue: it's dying anyway comments!!) well it's not dying....

But it would if it tried to go Transatlantic with neither the investment, the TV deals or the player resources. 

[TheReaper]

Have you ever considered writing short stories?

[krakauer]

19 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

Saying that people don't care which city a team comes from have little idea of the actual importance of history, heritage and location.

 

IMO and looking at the interest of certain games over the others, they do. 

Toronto has very little history, no heritage and, in opinion of some a bad location yet still gets crowds surpassing those that have plenty of above.

[Tommygilf]

27 minutes ago, krakauer said:

IMO and looking at the interest of certain games over the others, they do. 

Toronto has very little history, no heritage and, in opinion of some a bad location yet still gets crowds surpassing those that have plenty of .

You have to build history, heritage and tradition from nothing initially. 

Some day those OG Toronto fans might have a bit of fan culture based around them in the early days in years to come.

[krakauer]

12 hours ago, The Parksider said:

The 15 clubs who have entered reserves are now agreed and TWP did not join so TWP cannot enter Supereleague without reserves as the requirement was Mandatory. SL have stuffed them at the last minute. League Weekly's Danny Lockwood predicted this last week.

 

http://www.rlnews.co.uk/reports-rfl-to-make-reserves-mandatory-for-some/

"RFL will make running a Reserve grade mandatory for clubs with Category 1 Academy status".

Not sure if that's still valid as the article is from March 2019 but if so, does TWP have Academy 1 status?

 

 

12 hours ago, The Parksider said:

2. It appears there are mounting unpaid bills. The Billionaire may just well be cutting his losses from his limited Liability company, if he owed me anything I sure as heck would not bother making a claim for it, it would be my bad for trusting this "company" could ever turn a profit to pay bills.

 

Can we have factual source please.

 

 

12 hours ago, The Parksider said:

This is why TWP fans are now inventing this phoney army of English TWP fans who apparently swell crowds everywhere TWP play in England.

 

Define a valid (away) fan?

 

12 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Someone pointed out on RL fans if you look on companies house Martin Vickers and Brian Noble are listed as officers of the TWP limited Liability company. Noble was down as resigning on the 9th. August. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10564680/officers

 

So what if he did?

 

12 hours ago, The Parksider said:

9. Although accepted to the RFL in principle, absolutely zero has happened at Ottawa and New York.

 

Facts please...

 

12 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Who knows - maybe there'll be a last minute seizmic change of heart when TWP win the play off!!!

 

Thank you for your optimism!!

 

[Andy Capp]

On 01/08/2019 at 09:39, fighting irish said:

does he have a estimated time period where he is prepared to carry the cost until income overtakes expenditure.

If this is true, how long is that time period and how does he expect the income to grow to the point it exceeds the expenses.

He'd be a very unusual business man (in my experience) if he hasn't imagined the mechanism to achieve self sufficiency and calculated a rough timescale.

I read, somewhere else on here, "Kayakman" talking about a "Five Year Plan" for Toronto Wolfpack and that (if I remember rightly) they were currently in year four of the plan. So, if he's correct, there is a limited time scale. Which makes me wonder, if they don't do it in the five years, is it all over or is there a Plan B?

[krakauer]

6 minutes ago, Andy Capp said:

I read, somewhere else on here, "Kayakman" talking about a "Five Year Plan" for Toronto Wolfpack and that (if I remember rightly) they were currently in year four of the plan. So, if he's correct, there is a limited time scale. Which makes me wonder, if they don't do it in the five years, is it all over or is there a Plan B?

If you are in Toronto area you might want to ask this question tomorrow:

https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/tackle-talks-with-the-toronto-wolfpack-tickets-66479621337

This is a free event with RSVP.

[Andy Capp]

3 minutes ago, krakauer said:

If you are in Toronto area you might want to ask this question tomorrow:

https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/tackle-talks-with-the-toronto-wolfpack-tickets-66479621337

This is a free event with RSVP.

Thank you, looks like a great opportunity. Sadly I won't be anywhere near that vicinity tomorrow. I hope my question didn't seem snarky in any way, it was just based on what Kayak guy was asserting. I'm thinking if they win the play off's things could go like a rocket 

[Loup]

20 minutes ago, Andy Capp said:

I read, somewhere else on here, "Kayakman" talking about a "Five Year Plan" for Toronto Wolfpack and that (if I remember rightly) they were currently in year four of the plan. So, if he's correct, there is a limited time scale. Which makes me wonder, if they don't do it in the five years, is it all over or is there a Plan B?

TWP are currently in year 3 of the plan, that is, year 3 of fielding a side.

 

[CanadianRugger]

Yes, the 5 year plan was the "5 year plan to get to Super League"

We don't know if that was from time of incorporation or when they joined League 1.  It took a year to get the team off the ground before they even played a game so we are probably in year 4 of that plan. 

I love watching TWP and think it's been great that I have been able to watch top level Rugby League but I hope they are playing in Super League next season.  I don't think the concept works outside the Top Flight.

I know you don't have such a thing as Major and Minor Leagues in the UK but TWP are a Major League team playing in a Minor League Competition.  They just hammered the #2 team in the Division 56-6.  It isn't financially sustainable forever and no major sponsors are going to want to indefinitely sponsor a club who isn't playing in the top flight and getting coverage.

Here is a question - Are any of the Big 5 Canadian Banks heavily invested in the UK? They have a pretty good history of sponsoring Canadian Sports Clubs and would probably be a good sponsor for TWP to try and acquire.

[Jayme2020]

The Parksider

As with Ottawa there is alot going on right now not all to do with the rugby club alos if the Fury join the Canadian Primer League you going to have 3 major teams fighting over field time.

 

 

[TheReaper]

6 minutes ago, Jayme2020 said:

The Parksider

As with Ottawa there is alot going on right now not all to do with the rugby club alos if the Fury join the Canadian Primer League you going to have 3 major teams fighting over field time.

While you're right about the challenges of 3 teams playing there, I'm not sure it makes a huge difference if the Fury are in USL or CPL.

Either way,  I'd imagine that OSEG's own properties will get preference. 

[CanadianRugger]

10 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

While you're right about the challenges of 3 teams playing there, I'm not sure it makes a huge difference if the Fury are in USL or CPL.

Either way,  I'd imagine that OSEG's own properties will get preference. 

CFL shouldn't be too much of an issue.  A lot of games are played on Thursday and Friday and games that are played on the weekend are played late at night.  Simple scheduling fixes this.

[Kayakman]

29 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueMan said:

You remind me of a certain other poster....errmmm what's his name....Call Me..God i think or Gutterfax?... but I am probably way off the mark.

Please don't tell me that it is him....please tell him to go go back to his hole if it is.

[Kayakman]

1 minute ago, RugbyLeagueMan said:

Similar writing style to the other user on RLfans. First thing I noticed.

The guy is delusional and so full of himself it is beyond the pale.....time will tell....you have a good eye. 

Keep up the good work...Gods work~!

[TIWIT]

13 hours ago, Andy Capp said:

Thank you, looks like a great opportunity. Sadly I won't be anywhere near that vicinity tomorrow. I hope my question didn't seem snarky in any way, it was just based on what Kayak guy was asserting. I'm thinking if they win the play off's things could go like a rocket 

That will be Parky's head exploding.

Or, if he is correct and Super League refuse to admit TWP, David Argyle's.

[TIWIT]

12 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

CFL shouldn't be too much of an issue.  A lot of games are played on Thursday and Friday and games that are played on the weekend are played late at night.  Simple scheduling fixes this.

Artificial turf isn't it so the field won't be damaged by multiple users.