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yipyee

Bring back the 4 nations

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1 minute ago, southwalesrabbitoh said:

 

 The people who only have grand parents, tough, they can't play for Ireland. 

Why? Because you say they don't have a close enough connection to their heritage?

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13 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

I didn't mind the Tri-Nations, but I think Four Nations is better. The problem with Tri-Nations is that one team has nobody to play (although I suppose they could arrange a game against someone else), and for me it's too many games against the same two teams.

Suppose GB were to reach the final, that would mean us playing, say, NZ twice and Australia three times in the space of what - five weeks?

I feel that's too much to do annually. I'd rather have a Four Nations and play Aus, NZ, and maybe France/Tonga once, and then a final (if we get there). Plus, including either France/Tonga will hopefully help their development.

If cost is an issue, include Tonga in the 4N when it's play in the southern hemisphere, and France in the 4N when in the northern hemisphere.

I agree totally, my only difference would be that from going to and watching the 4 nations tournaments we've had I think the time was right to implement a 5th nation. In the 2014 and 2016 editions, Samoa and Scotland respectively challenged the big 3, with the latter earning a draw against NZ and in our one and only test between the 2 nations being ahead of England at half time. Now with the rise of Tonga and PNG/Fiji always being in and around that discussion we have scope to expand the tournament.

Realistically a Northern hemisphere 5(or 6) nations/confed cup of Eng, Oz, NZ, plus 2 qualifiers from Europe and 1 from the pacific then with that flipped for the southern hemisphere. Host it in the autumn in the years before and after the World cup leaving the "2 years to go" window open for teams to organise matches as they see fit - whether that be tours of single nations or whatever is down to the individual nations to decide.

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8 nations. 4 from each hemisphere.

1 preseason game, 1 mid season game, 1 post-season game against your own hemisphere.

Points carry over

4 weeks of magic style weekends of 2 double headers post season.

Bottom team from each hemisphere relegated

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

8 nations. 4 from each hemisphere.

1 preseason game, 1 mid season game, 1 post-season game against your own hemisphere.

Points carry over

4 weeks of magic style weekends of 2 double headers post season.

Bottom team from each hemisphere relegated

Can we have a WC spread over 4 years please.

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56 minutes ago, southwalesrabbitoh said:

No, because quite a few are born in the PI or have parents who were born there, they have relatives who they are in contact with whom they visit. That's completely different to Luke Ricketson and David Barnhill who played for Ireland through a grand parent and i bet have hardly spent time in Ireland and aren't close to any relative in Ireland. Also the Cook Islands is effectively a part of NZ and i feel the PI are part of Australia, the connections between them are so close, totally different to Australia and Ireland, Australia and Wales etc. 

Also many can speak some Tongan, as J Taumalolo did after the Aussie match recently. Patrick Richards was a different case as he has an Irish parent i believe and has a Celtic name, so i had no issues with Pat Richards playing for Ireland. IMO RL should adopt a parent rule, Tyson Frizell's father is from South Wales, so i have no issue with Tyson playing for Wales.

"He has a Celtic name" killed me 👏


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1 minute ago, southwalesrabbitoh said:

Well it's true. If his name was Deontay Wilder, you'd be thinking..............

That people meet other people that don't just come from their own small village? That there is a huge wide world out there of many different cultures that couple possibly mix?

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6 minutes ago, Click said:

That people meet other people that don't just come from their own small village? That there is a huge wide world out there of many different cultures that couple possibly mix?

Yes, but it would make you think if a brown guy turned up at Wigan saying his name was Deontay Wilder, his mother is Irish and he wants to play RL for Ireland. If he is caucasian and his name is Patrick Richards you would be less likely to question it. Tyson Frizell is brown and obviously isn't a a stereotypically sounding Celtic name, but i have no issue with him playing for Wales if he wants to. 

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41 minutes ago, southwalesrabbitoh said:

Yes, but it would make you think if a brown guy turned up at Wigan saying his name was Deontay Wilder, his mother is Irish and he wants to play RL for Ireland. If he is caucasian and his name is Patrick Richards you would be less likely to question it. Tyson Frizell is brown and obviously isn't a a stereotypically sounding Celtic name, but i have no issue with him playing for Wales if he wants to. 

I don't understand what point you're making - Why is Frizell fine, but Wilder not? Frizell has it's routes in English & Irish hertitage (as in the names) rather than Welsh, which is who he played for previously?

Is it because WIlder is American? I don't understand the difference between the two at all.

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2 hours ago, southwalesrabbitoh said:

 

 The people who only have grand parents, tough, they can't play for Ireland. 

What, even if they've got like 3 out of 4 grandparents that are Irish? That's a lot of heritage to knock back. 

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1 minute ago, Smudger06 said:

What, even if they've got like 3 out of 4 grandparents that are Irish? That's a lot of heritage to knock back. 

Nope, grandparents aren't enough. They must not connect enough with that national identity, or they would of moved back to said country the moment that they could.

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10 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

What, even if they've got like 3 out of 4 grandparents that are Irish? That's a lot of heritage to knock back. 

whats their name... does it sound Irish???

it would appear we have jumped back to the 1970s with some of the descriptive language on here!

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8 minutes ago, RP London said:

whats their name... does it sound Irish???

it would appear we have jumped back to the 1970s with some of the descriptive language on here!

Colour of the skin is important, too, according to some user here 🙆‍♂️

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On 08/11/2019 at 21:00, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Erm... Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, PNG, France, Wales

Plenty of their players showing passion for their heritage over the Aussie dollar

France and Wales have practically 0 heritage players.

Pretty sure Ireland are putting in rules to limit heritage players.

Aus, NZ and England all bend the rules on selection anyhow 

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On 11/11/2019 at 13:40, MatthewWoody said:

Colour of the skin is important, too, according to some user here 🙆‍♂️

What? No. I said i don't have a problem with Tyson playing for Wales. And it's the difference between Richards and Wilder.

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36 minutes ago, yipyee said:

France and Wales have practically 0 heritage players.

Pretty sure Ireland are putting in rules to limit heritage players.

Aus, NZ and England all bend the rules on selection anyhow 

Seven heritage players on the current squad list (including Morgan Knowles who isn’t on the list)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales_national_rugby_league_team#Current_squad

Thats fine though, for two reasons;

1.there is a core Welsh representation in the squad.

2.the sport has some tangible roots/profile in Wales.

So, even with six or seven players from outside Wales, as they are intermingled with Welsh players it feels Welsh, there is a connection to the Welsh public, and the sport has roots in Wales and gets coverage as a result.

 

Whenever this heritage debate gets rolled out, those two factors are often missed out. This especially happens by those in favour of entire heritage teams where other sports are brought up to justify it, when there is no comparison. The England cricket team for example...Ben Stokes (who happens to be British in any case, and having come up through the English cricket system, he’s a product of England), Eoin Morgan...that’s two players in a team of eleven. So nine bona fide English players (more than meeting the core English representation/identity), and in a sport with a major footprint in England (naturally as the birthplace of the game). 

Having thirteen blokes from overseas, represent a country (so no native representation/identity), and in a sport which has practically zero roots/profile/media coverage in the country, it’s incomparable to an England cricket team (or any other with a core group of natives and a sport with roots/profile). 

36 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Pretty sure Ireland are putting in rules to limit heritage players.

That would be a big step forward. It should be a sport-wide limit. 

Having a core group of natives automatically means the sport has some roots in that place, has a connection to the locals, and is more likely to get some media coverage and public interest as a result. 

Edited by DC77
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On 11/11/2019 at 12:56, Click said:

I don't understand what point you're making - Why is Frizell fine, but Wilder not? Frizell has it's routes in English & Irish hertitage (as in the names) rather than Welsh, which is who he played for previously?

Is it because WIlder is American? I don't understand the difference between the two at all.

Richards and Wilder i'm comparing not Wilder and Frizell. Richards is considered a Celtic surname, so are Williams, Davies, Thomas, Ellis, Lewis, Johns, Bowen, Pritchard etc. 

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10 minutes ago, DC77 said:

Having thirteen blokes from overseas, represent a country (so no native representation/identity), and in a sport which has practically zero roots/profile/media coverage in the country, it’s incomparable to an England cricket team (or any other with a core group of natives and a sport with roots/profile). 

How many heritage players do Tonga use versus players born in and playing in Tonga?

11 minutes ago, DC77 said:

That would be a big step forward. It should be a sport-wide limit. 

Would that instantly rule out Tonga and Samoa from being competitive?

12 minutes ago, DC77 said:

Having a core group of natives automatically means the sport has some roots in that place, has a connection to the locals, and is more likely to get some media coverage and public interest as a result. 

Again, how many of the Tonga team are natives of Tonga? And how have the Tongans done in terms of media coverage and public interest?

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17 hours ago, southwalesrabbitoh said:

Richards and Wilder i'm comparing not Wilder and Frizell. Richards is considered a Celtic surname, so are Williams, Davies, Thomas, Ellis, Lewis, Johns, Bowen, Pritchard etc. 

How is Richard's a Celtic name? Richard as a name has Norman roots in terms of its introduction to Britain and is of French derivation.... 

Wilder as a surname on the other hand is found in Anglo Saxon England and means Wild Animal...

this predates the introduction of Richard and therefore the surname Richard's (belonging to/son of Richard) into the British Isles... 

Edited by RP London
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27 minutes ago, RP London said:

How is Richard's a Celtic name? Richard as a name has Norman roots in terms of its introduction to Britain and is of French derivation.... 

Wilder as a surname on the other hand is found in Anglo Saxon England and means Wild Animal...

this predates the introduction of Richard and therefore the surname Richard's (belonging to/son of Richard) into the British Isles... 

Yeah,  but it sounds American, and Richards sounds Celtic - That's all that counts, right?

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1 hour ago, Click said:

Yeah,  but it sounds American, and Richards sounds Celtic - That's all that counts, right?

indeed... what worries me is that Owen Farrell could not sound more Irish as a name but he is supposed to be English... this is going to get very tough... 

It must be tough to be Australian trying to work this out... whats an Australian sounding name again?

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18 hours ago, southwalesrabbitoh said:

What? No. I said i don't have a problem with Tyson playing for Wales. And it's the difference between Richards and Wilder.

to be fair you brought the colour of their skin into the debate, really randomly, and it does sound a little "off".. If its not important then dont mention it, by mentioning it you made it part of the conversation.. i have no idea why as it added no weight to your argument either way.. 

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8 minutes ago, RP London said:

indeed... what worries me is that Owen Farrell could not sound more Irish as a name but he is supposed to be English... this is going to get very tough... 

It must be tough to be Australian trying to work this out... whats an Australian sounding name again?

Owen Farrell is about as English Emmanuel Macron, his mother's surname is O'Loughlin. 

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