The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[briggyq]

2 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

https://www.totalrl.com/one-rule-for-one-another-for-the-rest-if-elstone-wants-to-scrutinise-toronto-he-should-look-closer-to-home-too/

It’s incredible that Shaw has an inability to understand why a team who would be based in a different continent for three and a bit months of a season need to be judged slightly differently than sides from opposite sides of the M62. 

Its pretty much what he was saying on the podcast last week,he got a little hot under the collar 

[Oldbear]

2 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Oldbear the honey is always sweeter in the other tree....the two provincial associations are certainly different.  Ontario used to be taken more seriously by BC but not these days...serious problems in the upper echelons between the two which I witnessed on numerous occasions.  In BC there are lots of working class folk who play and are good but the 'uppers' and their denoted clubs always get the nod for rep sides (thats for sure).  This thinking permeated its way into Ontario and that is one of the obstacles to continued growth.  I once had a lad who was the best young talent I ever saw...best numerous refs ever saw...the complete package from top to bottom....wasn't picked for the Ontario rep side though (told he lived too far from Toronto even though he finished at the top in the trails for speed etc.)....he was very disappointed and went onto a good long career in professional hockey.  A scout from a top Welsh side saw him play and offered him a contract but he chose hockey instead.  He could be picked to play top level rugby in Wales for a big club but could not make the Ontario rep side...the fix was certainly in on that one.  Best tackler I ever coached.  Great speed and ball handling skills...fantastic runner in both traffic and open field.  Was 6'4" and about 220...not good enough for Ontario though (the coach put one his own players from his home club at 8).   Imagine if that young man could have had a crack at League? 

Same thing happened with my youngest son when he was at U18 level, he was considered good enough to get a university scholarship playing flanker but was pushed out of the rep side by the coaches son (who also attended one of the top expensive private schools), it was amazing how many members of that rep side were from private schools and had links to the coach, most of the kids overlooked were from the state school system. There’s a whole bunch I have seen over the past few years who would have made good league players and is perhaps one of my frustrations that TWP didn’t do more development wise, as I genuinely think the talent can be found and RC is so political that these kids talents are wasted. The RFL really needs to decide if it wants to try to promote the game over here or not and if the answer is no then do it quickly. I’m not asking for RFL money, they have none plus I’m sure that Canada can handle that side providing we are careful who is involved, however a commitment to junior development from the Canadian side is essential, it’s controversial but I would honestly give a Canadian SL team a 3 year exemption from relegation in return for a requirement to put a development plan in place, hopefully with RFL technical support.

[Tommygilf]

3 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

https://www.totalrl.com/one-rule-for-one-another-for-the-rest-if-elstone-wants-to-scrutinise-toronto-he-should-look-closer-to-home-too/

It’s incredible that Shaw has an inability to understand why a team who would be based in a different continent for three and a bit months of a season need to be judged slightly differently than sides from opposite sides of the M62. 

I think his point is rather salient, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[CanadianRugger]

5 hours ago, Oldbear said:

I bow to the knowledge of my Ontario friends, I think CR is the most accurate in that in BC RU is dominated and controlled by alumni of top private schools like Shawnigan Lake and St George’s, perhaps that’s another reason RU has never achieved a huge amount in Canada in that the contrast between West and East is staggering, and therefore no common ground a lot of the time. Have to say that since my youngest son moved to Ontario for his studies his team mates seem to be from more normal families, whereas in BC his team mates came from families with at least 2 homes and disposable income that would make your eyes water.

I've played Rugby in 4 different provinces.  I've also lived in 4 different provinces and worked and travelled to every single province and territory except the Yukon. 

Lower Mainland BC and Victoria are like their own little world.  My personal opinion is RC has their head so far up their own asses they don't actually know what's good for the sport.

BC still controls the sport but all the good players now come from Central Canada.  Ontario has  4x the playing base of BC and I believe BC has recently been usurped by Alberta as well. 

I live and work in Victoria now and it's a place that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.  I plan on leaving as soon as I can because the place is overrated in many ways.

[Kayakman]

16 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

I've played Rugby in 4 different provinces.  I've also lived in 4 different provinces and worked and travelled to every single province and territory except the Yukon. 

Lower Mainland BC and Victoria are like their own little world.  My personal opinion is RC has their head so far up their own asses they don't actually know what's good for the sport.

BC still controls the sport but all the good players now come from Central Canada.  Ontario has  4x the playing base of BC and I believe BC has recently been usurped by Alberta as well. 

I live and work in Victoria now and it's a place that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.  I plan on leaving as soon as I can because the place is overrated in many ways.

AIN'T THAT GODS OWN TRUTH!!!

[Man of Kent]

Cross-code?

[TheReaper]

More relevant to TWP than a lot of stuff in this thread.

Their fans came significantly from the existing union base, and if you ever want to see players come from Canada,  they too will majority come the existing union base to begin with.  How that base is formed, operates and is treated are all aspects that affect leagues chances.

[Man of Kent]

9 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

More relevant to TWP than a lot of stuff in this thread.

Their fans came significantly from the existing union base, and if you ever want to see players come from Canada,  they too will majority come the existing union base to begin with.  How that base is formed, operates and is treated are all aspects that affect leagues chances.

I jest. It’s very interesting. The onion talk shows how Canada is not virgin territory to be conquered by the first rugby code who can plant its flag. 

Indeed, I remember when Canada were one of the better RU nations outside the top rank.

It also shows there are the usual socio-economic, ie class, factors at play and that a mass switching seems unlikely.

There are some pretty deep roots in what was, after all, legally a British dominion until as recently as 1982. God save your Queen!

[Kayakman]

56 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I jest. It’s very interesting. The onion talk shows how Canada is not virgin territory to be conquered by the first rugby code who can plant its flag. 

Indeed, I remember when Canada were one of the better RU nations outside the top rank.

It also shows there are the usual socio-economic, ie class, factors at play and that a mass switching seems unlikely.

There are some pretty deep roots in what was, after all, legally a British dominion until as recently as 1982. God save your Queen!

 

I hate to say it Man of Kent but this is a poor post.  EVERY assumption you make in the post is, indeed,  factually incorrect.  You simply have to do better.

P.S. The full name of my country is "The Dominion of Canada", we are our own dominion and have been since 1867 for the Love of Mike!

[Oldbear]

3 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

Lower Mainland BC and Victoria are like their own little world.  My personal opinion is RC has their head so far up their own asses they don't actually know what's good for the sport.

I live and work in Victoria now and it's a place that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.  I plan on leaving as soon as I can because the place is overrated in many ways.

This is so true. I’m actually currently working on leaving Vancouver and moving to the Okanagan because Vancouver is making less and less sense unless you are a millionaire. It’s not just RC who have their heads up their asses but the same goes for the private school alumni dominated BC Rugby, who are perpetuating an old boys network which in turn puts more kids off the sport. Oh and before MoK comes along to say cross code again I’m trying to highlight that IF RL could get a decent foothold in Canada and IF some genuine RL development were to take place then players could be found and it might not be that long before a few made it to the pro game, however that will depend on

1. does anyone in RL want Canada as part of the family (not sure)

2. Can TWP and the Aces find dedicated owners who are not only interested in the highest level, but will also spend time and $ developing juniors.

3. can the RFL offer (non monetary) support? I floated the idea of a 3 year exemption from relegation in return for real development but also maybe a couple of development officers (supplied by the RFL but paid for by Canadian clubs), that way the locals get to see how to run development programs from experienced people rather than stumbling blind

What worries me is that the driver for having Canadian teams in the RFL has come from the perspective of “how much money will this make us”, when the reality is that it could be years before British clubs see any significant financial payback, and many clubs can’t think that far in advance due to their own financial limitations. The main benefit of expanding the sport to Canada would be in adding a meaningful name to the international game, which hopefully in turn increases the sports credibility and financial clout when negotiating with broadcasters, however that will add very little to SL clubs bottom line for several years. It’s a little like why do we have a World Cup, I’m sure there are many that think that monies spent organizing World Cups could be better spent propping up M62 clubs and I fear that the same attitude will apply to expansion in Canada.

[TIWIT]

Needless to say that in Canada all forms of Rugby save 7s are pretty far down the sports hierarchy. Which means little media attention and gov't money.

But TWP were making noise all on their own. Shame to give it all up after just 5 years. 

[Robin Evans]

5 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

Needless to say that in Canada all forms of Rugby save 7s are pretty far down the sports hierarchy. Which means little media attention and gov't money.

But TWP were making noise all on their own. Shame to give it all up after just 5 years. 

As said before, the greatest casualties should TWP's demise happen, would be the fans who have taken to the game would feft without a club to watch. That would be a crying shame. But there are many other considerations. The game must make the right decision.... whatever that decision is

[Man of Kent]

6 hours ago, Kayakman said:

 

I hate to say it Man of Kent but this is a poor post.  EVERY assumption you make in the post is, indeed,  factually incorrect.  You simply have to do better.

P.S. The full name of my country is "The Dominion of Canada", we are our own dominion and have been since 1867 for the Love of Mike!

‘Our own dominion”. Lolz. Dominion = colony. As in, the British colony of Canada.

Until 1982, UK Parliament had the power to change the Canadian constitution & any changes wanted by Ottawa required formal approval by the UK. 

1982!  I’ve been around longer than Canada has been technically an independent nation!!

[Oxford]

Soon there'll be more locked threads than open ones on this forum.

"I drew a map of Canada
Oh, Canada"

 

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Cross-code?

Most defiantly, it's bad enough whe people mention the domestic game over here,  or even the internationals, but here we have a competition being discussed that is so substandard it would be as interesting as watching a canal bank fishing match.

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Most defiantly, it's bad enough whe people mention the domestic game over here,  or even the internationals, but here we have a competition being discussed that is so substandard it would be as interesting as watching a canal bank fishing match.

I prefer the Crocodile Dundee fishing system

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, TheReaper said:

More relevant to TWP than a lot of stuff in this thread.

Their fans came significantly from the existing union base, and if you ever want to see players come from Canada,  they too will majority come the existing union base to begin with.  How that base is formed, operates and is treated are all aspects that affect leagues chances.

C'mon Reaper, do you not think if there were any good enough union players in Canada capable of making the switch to the Wolfpack do you think they would not be there or even enticed by the Wolfpack if only for a Public Relations excersize.

I have said it before, I have spoken to lads ( TWP player's at the time) who went along to assist in the many auditions that were held in the early days, it was said there was some 'fine physical specimens' that attended but they were as wooden as a tree stump in the abillity required to play rugby league.

[Tommygilf]

9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

C'mon Reaper, do you not think if there were any good enough union players in Canada capable of making the switch to the Wolfpack do you think they would not be there or even enticed by the Wolfpack if only for a Public Relations excersize.

I have said it before, I have spoken to lads ( TWP player's at the time) who went along to assist in the many auditions that were held in the early days, it was said there was some 'fine physical specimens' that attended but they were as wooden as a tree stump in the abillity required to play rugby league.

The last tackle guys were mainly low level CFL/NFL players iirc, so not like for like with Canadian union.

As has been suggested by some on here I wonder if the Wolfpack don't want to ruffle too many feathers with Canadian RU, especially given the at times ethereal nature of support from the SL and other RL clubs.

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

https://www.totalrl.com/one-rule-for-one-another-for-the-rest-if-elstone-wants-to-scrutinise-toronto-he-should-look-closer-to-home-too/

It’s incredible that Shaw has an inability to understand why a team who would be based in a different continent for three and a bit months of a season need to be judged slightly differently than sides from opposite sides of the M62. 

Yep he has most definitely got a bee in his bonnet about the Wolfpack, but he does bring up some very relevant points about the false standards and complete lack of scrutiny that is applied to the other incumbant SL clubs, and indeed Elstone's own department.

And I agree with him that TWP will get a reprieve, FWiW I wouldn't agree with it, but it may be the best way SL clubs could avoid a proceedure and standards being set that they will all have to adhere to. 

It could even be called "Framing the future" a system with a set degree of merits and excellence that must be adhered to.

[Hela Wigmen]

9 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think his point is rather salient, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

You think we shouldn’t be asking for more information from clubs with financial irregularities and clubs that are transatlantic and plan on spending anywhere between two months to three and a half outside of the UK?

I take it you aren’t happy we treated Catalans Dragons differently either? Granted, it was on the pitch more than off it but still, they were afforded luxuries that Widnes and Cas (IIRC) were not. Whether the onfield luxuries afforded to Catalans should have been afforded to Toronto is another issue. 

I also don’t think there is a fair one list fits all for criteria for Super League either. There’s not a list that unifies relative new start clubs in Toronto with the established clubs like your Leeds’, Saints’, Wigan’s etc and your clubs with ambitions to be in Super League in Leigh, Featherstone, York, Newcastle etc. 

It’s remiss to suggest that all clubs should be treated the same and it’s crazy that Shaw has an inability to understand this. 

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

The last tackle guys were mainly low level CFL/NFL players iirc, so not like for like with Canadian union.

As has been suggested by some on here I wonder if the Wolfpack don't want to ruffle too many feathers with Canadian RU, especially given the at times ethereal nature of support from the SL and other RL clubs.

They could always switch codes Tommy. 

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

You think we shouldn’t be asking for more information from clubs with financial irregularities and clubs that are transatlantic and plan on spending anywhere between two months to three and a half outside of the UK?

I take it you aren’t happy we treated Catalans Dragons differently either? Granted, it was on the pitch more than off it but still, they were afforded luxuries that Widnes and Cas (IIRC) were not. Whether the onfield luxuries afforded to Catalans should have been afforded to Toronto is another issue. 

I also don’t think there is a fair one list fits all for criteria for Super League either. There’s not a list that unifies relative new start clubs in Toronto with the established clubs like your Leeds’, Saints’, Wigan’s etc and your clubs with ambitions to be in Super League in Leigh, Featherstone, York, Newcastle etc. 

It’s remiss to suggest that all clubs should be treated the same and it’s crazy that Shaw has an inability to understand this. 

Not disagreeing with any of that Hela, but how far down does your 'leniency' meter go before it is decided if a club is not a good fit for SL. 

[Hela Wigmen]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Yep he has most definitely got a bee in his bonnet about the Wolfpack, but he does bring up some very relevant points about the false standards and complete lack of scrutiny that is applied to the other incumbant SL clubs, and indeed Elstone's own department.

And I agree with him that TWP will get a reprieve, FWiW I wouldn't agree with it, but it may be the best way SL clubs could avoid a proceedure and standards being set that they will all have to adhere to. 

It could even be called "Framing the future" a system with a set degree of merits and excellence that must be adhered to.

Toronto should be judged differently. They’re the only transatlantic club we have and as such, have different requirements and needs that others simply do not and after financial issues that have dogged them for longer than 2020, I don’t think it’s a big issue to ask them (or any club who have had financial issues, for that matter) for different things and that’s not just based on the fact they’ll be in Canada for anywhere between two and three and a half months. 

I also find it hard to say that all clubs should be judged off of the same one list fits all criteria. Comparing a new start in Toronto to established clubs is simply daft and even comparing Toronto to self proclaimed “ambitious clubs” in Leigh, Featherstone and York to name three, is remiss. 

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

You think we shouldn’t be asking for more information from clubs with financial irregularities and clubs that are transatlantic and plan on spending anywhere between two months to three and a half outside of the UK?

I take it you aren’t happy we treated Catalans Dragons differently either? Granted, it was on the pitch more than off it but still, they were afforded luxuries that Widnes and Cas (IIRC) were not. Whether the onfield luxuries afforded to Catalans should have been afforded to Toronto is another issue. 

I also don’t think there is a fair one list fits all for criteria for Super League either. There’s not a list that unifies relative new start clubs in Toronto with the established clubs like your Leeds’, Saints’, Wigan’s etc and your clubs with ambitions to be in Super League in Leigh, Featherstone, York, Newcastle etc. 

It’s remiss to suggest that all clubs should be treated the same and it’s crazy that Shaw has an inability to understand this. 

Mate I think you're missing my (and his) point. 

It's about the attitude of judgement of certain clubs by the "value" they bring to Super League. Toronto is actually an irrelevance to the point tbh it applies the same to Halifax, Widnes, Leigh etc. It however seems never to apply to Wakefield, Castleford, even Wigan or Leeds.

Ironically it is the clubs proposing this reductive "what do you bring to the table" judgement who actually would stand to lose most should that judgement be cast upon them.

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

They could always switch codes Tommy. 

Which would be a terrible loss for Rugby League I'm sure you'll agree.