The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

But you want a one way passport with no exit clause, sorry I can not get away from it being a sporting contest if you're in it to win it you should also be prepared to lose it ............... who ever you are, be it the Canadians, the French, even your club when it was possible they could suffer jeapordy, the clamour on these pages that it should not be allowed to happen was disgraceful, if over a season you prove not good enough, tough.

Fantastic also, but please have no pretence to care about the game's development by the same token

[PhilCarrington]

6 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Bob Hunter did say creditors were popping up all over so it's taking them time to investigate them all. Might be one of the things SL is concerned about.

As for backwages I have seen £1 million tossed about. SWB's deal is different as he has equity in the club.

Bad news for SBW then. Can''t see the shares being worth very much.

[Quolls2020]

2 hours ago, PhilCarrington said:

Bad news for SBW then. Can''t see the shares being worth very much.

If he has been paid in equity, is that now a liability making him partly liable.

[Niels]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Fantastic also, but please have no pretence to care about the game's development by the same token

The two are not mutually exclusive though Tommy.

I like some development teams but I would never endorse a system that was not dependent on performance on the field.

If you go down that road then you may as well watch the x factor where the judges decide who stays in.

I think it's very easy for fans of the big teams to claim exemptions are for the good of the game, as they are very unlikely to be relegated instead.

[Tommygilf]

6 hours ago, Niels said:

The two are not mutually exclusive though Tommy.

I like some development teams but I would never endorse a system that was not dependent on performance on the field.

If you go down that road then you may as well watch the x factor where the judges decide who stays in.

I think it's very easy for fans of the big teams to claim exemptions are for the good of the game, as they are very unlikely to be relegated instead.

This isn't a "big team" here in England though is it Niels? I agree the argument is weaker (though not implausible) if you start suggesting the same for Leeds, Wigan, Saints etc.

This is a club in a country where the sport has zero visibility at all. To even begin to garner playing interest in any numbers then the profile of the sport needs to be raised and a top flight team with TV exposure is essential to that. If we're asking the owners of TWP to pay for this stuff too we have to accept that it will take a backseat to securing a place in the top flight when threatened with relegation. There is a qualitative difference between swapping an English team for another English team or for an international side (and vice versa). Denying that is denying reality and indeed what SL themselves have said. It serves no purpose to compare the value of these clubs in terms of the game's development.

If TWP were one of a number of Canadian clubs in the RFL, then it would be less significant, as the sport wouldn't be reliant on them alone succeeding to develop in Canada. 

[Harry Stottle]

11 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Fantastic also, but please have no pretence to care about the game's development by the same token

By the same token Tommy protecting some clubs from jeapordy certainly devalues the concept that the league is a sporting contest.

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, Kayakman said:

But Harry you were singing a bit of a different tune when the Wolfpack won League 1 and then Championship and was promoted both times...You can't have it both ways.

Lost me K'man?

[LeeF]

8 hours ago, Quolls2020 said:

If he has been paid in equity, is that now a liability making him partly liable.

No he wouldn’t be

[RugbyFan99]

My understanding was that SBW was given equity - it wasn't part of his monetary package but was emphasised to show his belief that TWP would be a long-term success. Cost him nothing and is now worth nothing.

[Tommygilf]

54 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

By the same token Tommy protecting some clubs from jeapordy certainly devalues the concept that the league is a sporting contest.

Its not and never has been a "sporting contest" in the pure sense you desire. The teams challenging for trophies in any league are almost always the teams that spend the most and in the past 30 years and with professionalism the gap between "the challengers" and "the rest" is as wider than ever. Recognising that premise changes the perspective totally.

As I've said numerous times now H, you want a pure sporting contest devoid of outside influences, you'll be far happier watching the NCL than any professional sport. 

[Quolls2020]

2 hours ago, RugbyFan99 said:

My understanding was that SBW was given equity - it wasn't part of his monetary package but was emphasised to show his belief that TWP would be a long-term success. Cost him nothing and is now worth nothing.

Pretty sure his package is worth as much as his equity.

[Adelaide Tiger]

21 hours ago, Quolls2020 said:

You can have a successful team in a non traditional area without it having any, or very little increase or impact on the relevant Sport in that area.

melbourne storm in the nrl are a very good example with good crowds and great success, however after close to 25 years they still have no Victorian players and there is no growth in the local leagues.

but they are not too far from the top in the nrl popularity stakes.

so it can be done.

having said that.

storm had a real billionaire behind them for a long time....and he did lose a bit of money on them.
the South east coast base was fundamental...Perth and Adelaide both failed, and yes there was some sports politics involved, but if they were going to be anywhere near a going concern both would still be there.

livolsi still appears to be into product promotion and the product is not necessarily rugby.

and they call it tyranny of distance for a reason.

You missed out the most important factor that provided the opportunity for massive investment by Newscorp that led to long term stability and therefore growth ....... there is no relegation in the NRL.

[Kayakman]

5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Lost me K'man?

Well what I am saying is that you did not support the Wolfpack going up when they won League 1 and Championship because you implied they 'bought' it even though they won on the field...now you say if you win it on the field your club should go up....you can't have it both ways Harry...you either believe a club earns the right of promotion on the field or they don't.  The name of the club should not change your logic or else it exposes an implied bias.

[Robin Evans]

20 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Well what I am saying is that you did not support the Wolfpack going up when they won League 1 and Championship because you implied they 'bought' it even though they won on the field...now you say if you win it on the field your club should go up....you can't have it both ways Harry...you either believe a club earns the right of promotion on the field or they don't.  The name of the club should not change your logic or else it exposes an implied bias.

Well.... beating Fev last year in my opinion won you the right to promotion, regardless of whether the twp bankrolled that success with their recruitment.

BUT, it is a reality that your club did spend way more than other clubs to achieve that, just as my club did when we won the GF but weren't able to be promoted. Pointing out twp's spending to achieve is incidental in my opinion.....but it is correct.

Win the Championship GF = promotion to me.... regardless of what the club could afford to achieve that.

[Oldbear]

On 06/10/2020 at 06:40, Big Picture said:

It's more accurate to say that RL clubs exist at many universities, but unless I'm mistaken it isn't a university-funded varsity sport in any of them.

There are a few, both in USA and Canada, even my youngest sons team is part university funded, and they are only ranked #7 in Canada, the likes of UBC and UVic are funded to a much greater degree, even extending to bringing in players from overseas (usually South Africa).

[Oldbear]

Just now, Oldbear said:

There are a few, both in USA and Canada, even my youngest sons team is part university funded, and they are only ranked #7 in Canada, the likes of UBC and UVic are funded to a much greater degree, even extending to bringing in players from overseas (usually South Africa).

Sorry I meant RU, please forgive me, either way RL could apply for funding, even here if only

1. There was a demand

2. RL was much higher profile, hence the need for pro clubs as well as a grass routes to create the demand.

[Oldbear]

2 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

Sorry I meant RU, please forgive me, either way RL could apply for funding, even here if only

1. There was a demand

2. RL was much higher profile, hence the need for pro clubs as well as a grass routes to create the demand.

Oh I forgot point 3, assuming RU doesn’t block it, which I suspect they might if RU felt threatened, I don’t buy the all friends together story, in fact one of my customers, who is a former committee guy at a B.C. RU club told me he and his colleagues would fight to ensure RU was never threatened by RL (this was when the Wolfpack were promoted to SL, so it definitely awoke some people here).

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Oldbear said:

Oh I forgot point 3, assuming RU doesn’t block it, which I suspect they might if RU felt threatened, I don’t buy the all friends together story, in fact one of my customers, who is a former committee guy at a B.C. RU club told me he and his colleagues would fight to ensure RU was never threatened by RL (this was when the Wolfpack were promoted to SL, so it definitely awoke some people here).

This is the attitude that needs shouting from the rooftops, it'll either embarrass the Unionites into backing down, or rile up our game to support our brother Canuck league'ies 

[Oldbear]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

This is the attitude that needs shouting from the rooftops, it'll either embarrass the Unionites into backing down, or rile up our game to support our brother Canuck league'ies 

They are careful though, there’s an “all friends” image, and after all this guy was a former committee man who got very ###### off when his clubs RU players wanted to play RL in their offseason. I’m just saying you don’t have to scratch too far from the surface to find the old attitudes, and since the vast majority of Canadians don’t know or don’t care that there are 2 codes then there’s not exactly a lot said. Most Canadian rugby players come from pretty affluent families or at least middle class, not exactly the hotbeds of revolution, unless it’s concerning building in their backyards!

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

They are careful though, there’s an “all friends” image, and after all this guy was a former committee man who got very ###### off when his clubs RU players wanted to play RL in their offseason. I’m just saying you don’t have to scratch too far from the surface to find the old attitudes, and since the vast majority of Canadians don’t know or don’t care that there are 2 codes then there’s not exactly a lot said. Most Canadian rugby players come from pretty affluent families or at least middle class, not exactly the hotbeds of revolution, unless it’s concerning building in their backyards!

Absolutely, not surprised at all. Nimbyism at its finest, though the BC orientation of the Canadian RU should work in favour of the more Ontario/Eastern focus of RL

[Oldbear]

I have often wondered if there’s another story as to why TWP under Mr A never made any real RL development strides, wasn’t Mr A an RU man originally and was he gently reminded by the RU here that they didn’t mind a pro RL team as it helped raise the profile of rugby, but no roots please. Anyhow just a theory.

[Oldbear]

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Absolutely, not surprised at all. Nimbyism at its finest, though the BC orientation of the Canadian RU should work in favour of the more Ontario/Eastern focus of RL

Possibly, though I profess to having no knowledge of the working of Rugby Canada, even if I have a son playing in the structure!

[TheReaper]

22 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

Most Canadian rugby players come from pretty affluent families or at least middle class, not exactly the hotbeds of revolution, unless it’s concerning building in their backyards!

Could be different in BC, but that has not been my experience at all in Ontario. 

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, Oldbear said:

I have often wondered if there’s another story as to why TWP under Mr A never made any real RL development strides, wasn’t Mr A an RU man originally and was he gently reminded by the RU here that they didn’t mind a pro RL team as it helped raise the profile of rugby, but no roots please. Anyhow just a theory.

Wouldn’t spend the money, I suspect. The Canadian operation of Team t’Wolfpack was said to be slim to non-existent. 

[Tommygilf]

4 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Possibly, though I profess to having no knowledge of the working of Rugby Canada, even if I have a son playing in the structure!

Haha, tbf I only know from what I've read, heard and watched. Basic point being that in recent times the game's leadership has been increasingly Vancouver focused even though this has been to the detriment to the national team and the wider game at all levels elsewhere. I'm sure there's a few videos on YouTube about it. Probably worth you investigating a little with your son's involvement!

Opportunity knocks for RL?