Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Mr Plow

The England Brand

Recommended Posts

On 08/02/2020 at 15:47, Mr Plow said:

How easily identifiable is the England RL brand? Football use the three lions, union have the red rose, league have always used the St George’s cross which seems to be a pretty hard thing to build a brand around.

Id much rather them use the GB lion and be known as the Lions rather than the ‘wall of white’

I read the title wrong and thought you meant the FA had dumped this lot and they'd been signed up by the RFL, bad enough at Hillsborough and Headingley!

image.jpeg.08ef55710e10d971a5bb6e21aa4926bc.jpeg
 
 
 

Lions and rugby will always be synonymous with the other code, no matter how much people want to believe the "brand" will work

Edited by meast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

England are in position where they can start to build a brand. There is enough recognition that people know what it is, not so much that change is jarring or that risks cant be taken.

England, and RL as a whole, has a problem in that there is little to regularity or consistency. You can't build a brand on a shirt that is seen maybe 5 times in 3 years then a world cup.

You especially cant do that if it's something as plain as a white shirt with a red cross that looks like a football kit. 

We need england to be playing regularly and we need them to be distinctive. Thsts not really possible unfortunately whilst anything that deviates from how the game was in 1983 sees howling and wailing from its aging fanbase. 

Personally I think the wall of white is an awkward phrase and if it is retained it's the fans not the players. Lions, Roses, three lions are all indistinct, and associated with others, the knights are already the development squad. 

Not too worried about the nickname though, 

As for.colours the red and white hoops are distinctive and representative of the games heritage as colours of the Tudor rose and of the 1910 tour. 

That should be the shirt we build a brand around, a cotton, collard. Red and white hooped.shirt. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

England are in position where they can start to build a brand. There is enough recognition that people know what it is, not so much that change is jarring or that risks cant be taken.

England, and RL as a whole, has a problem in that there is little to regularity or consistency. You can't build a brand on a shirt that is seen maybe 5 times in 3 years then a world cup.

You especially cant do that if it's something as plain as a white shirt with a red cross that looks like a football kit. 

We need england to be playing regularly and we need them to be distinctive. Thsts not really possible unfortunately whilst anything that deviates from how the game was in 1983 sees howling and wailing from its aging fanbase. 

Personally I think the wall of white is an awkward phrase and if it is retained it's the fans not the players. Lions, Roses, three lions are all indistinct, and associated with others, the knights are already the development squad. 

Not too worried about the nickname though, 

As for.colours the red and white hoops are distinctive and representative of the games heritage as colours of the Tudor rose and of the 1910 tour. 

That should be the shirt we build a brand around, a cotton, collard. Red and white hooped.shirt. 

 

Red hoops people will complain it looks like a Wigan shirt. Red V people will complain it looks like a Saints shirt. All white people complain it’s boring.

I quite like England cricket playing in blue. It’s a bit alternative but still kind of traditional. They wear 3 lions as well. Maybe promote the knights moniker to the senior team

606E7B56-54E7-43AB-A496-7571F650037F.jpeg

Edited by Mr Plow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Mr Plow said:

Red hoops people will complain it looks like a Wigan shirt. Red V people will complain it looks like a Saints shirt. All white people complain it’s boring.

I quite like England cricket playing in blue. It’s a bit alternative but still kind of traditional. They wear 3 lions as well. Maybe promote the knights moniker to the senior team

606E7B56-54E7-43AB-A496-7571F650037F.jpeg

I think it looks distinctive enough, plus I'm not sure there needs to be a massive difference. England in football play in white and blue and its hardly like those are uncommon colours in football.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RP London said:

what you said you want is the traditional England RU kit... maybe less sports direct but very much more Union.

League socks used to be like that look at the centenary kit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Mr Plow said:

Red hoops people will complain it looks like a Wigan shirt. Red V people will complain it looks like a Saints shirt. All white people complain it’s boring.

I quite like England cricket playing in blue. It’s a bit alternative but still kind of traditional. They wear 3 lions as well. Maybe promote the knights moniker to the senior team

606E7B56-54E7-43AB-A496-7571F650037F.jpeg

Can't have light blue. Too much like St Helens. 😉

New-St.Helens-Away-Shirt-2015.jpg

 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep the design 'simple' and brand recognisable. 

I'd be happy with two red vee's - thats not traditionally Saints, who 'usually' have one.

I'd also be happy with hoops - regular, or irregular.

Also - a plain 'white' shirt, and if needs be some red piping. No blue. Its not our colour, don't care about football.

Its the 'badge' the brand, that matters.

The RFL, lost a clanger in disbanding GB completely over a decade ago. The Aussies, NZ and such can't distinguish between what GB is and England anyway (in the main) just take the Lions badge and done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am trying to find the England v Australia dates online. Google: England Rugby League.

Rugby-league.com doesn't have anything.

A bunch of newspaper links follow

loverugbyleague.com doesn't have anything.

rugbyleagueplanet says that we're having a 4 nations with France, Fiji and PNG

Cant find owt on BBC.

I dont want to complain for the sake it, but me! Shambles.

I want to buy tickets soon, this is not helping

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/02/2020 at 08:53, Boomer Bang Wool said:

What’s the lion’s relation to England? It’s an animal native to Africa. Shouldn’t your sports teams have foxes or whatever it is that is native to England? Typical English pillaging from others 

You must be an aboriginal Australian.

It’s 2020, and still Australia has “Australia Day” to mark the pillaging carried out by white folk that occupy the place.

Along with native Americans, blacks and Jews, aboriginal Australians are among the most wronged people on Earth, you have my sympathies.

On 09/02/2020 at 10:32, Allora said:

From an outsiders point of view the St George Cross looks outdated and cliched in this day and age.

All white shirts have never looked like a team of winners more like a team flying the flag of surrender before they get started.

Now All Blacks....

 

Unless you are Real Madrid..

From a rugby league standpoint though I don’t think an all white strip works. It works in football as it’s a much more graceful sport...ie. Zidane in all white was a perfect fit. A collision based sport suits more darker colours. Seeing big Sam Burgess in all white just didn’t look right...he didn’t look as intimidating as he should. Same applies to James Graham and any other enforcer. Certainly the socks could be changed, and possibly navy/dark blue shorts. 

Edited by DC77

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/02/2020 at 20:06, Leyther_Matt said:

There was a red alternative away shirt the other year (World Cup year?), but I guess as the main shirt it might get a little mixed up with the RU Lions and the Welsh. 

White with a double red chevron works for me if it is considered too controversial for England to wear a red & blue chevron and sack off the GB brand once and for all. 

Great shout, that. 

 

lion.jpg.80978c1641dcae6f9d870b78e3c8b5db.jpg This badge on a white shirt with a double Red V and dark blue trim/shorts

Edited by Tommygilf
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

England are in position where they can start to build a brand. There is enough recognition that people know what it is, not so much that change is jarring or that risks cant be taken.

England, and RL as a whole, has a problem in that there is little to regularity or consistency. You can't build a brand on a shirt that is seen maybe 5 times in 3 years then a world cup.

You especially cant do that if it's something as plain as a white shirt with a red cross that looks like a football kit. 

We need england to be playing regularly and we need them to be distinctive. Thsts not really possible unfortunately whilst anything that deviates from how the game was in 1983 sees howling and wailing from its aging fanbase. 

Personally I think the wall of white is an awkward phrase and if it is retained it's the fans not the players. Lions, Roses, three lions are all indistinct, and associated with others, the knights are already the development squad. 

Not too worried about the nickname though, 

As for.colours the red and white hoops are distinctive and representative of the games heritage as colours of the Tudor rose and of the 1910 tour. 

That should be the shirt we build a brand around, a cotton, collard. Red and white hooped.shirt. 

 

Play in all Red with a white V and call ourselves "The Red Wall" seems fitting...

In all seriousness though the red and white hoops we used against Oz in the 4 nations game looked great. The "paint stripe" England shirts from 2011ish also are modern classics imo.

I've suggested having a red version of the GB lions badge as a possibility but would take the Tudor Rose design too. I actually don't think the current one is too bad we just need to play more!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Play in all Red with a white V and call ourselves "The Red Wall" seems fitting...

In all seriousness though the red and white hoops we used against Oz in the 4 nations game looked great. The "paint stripe" England shirts from 2011ish also are modern classics imo.

I've suggested having a red version of the GB lions badge as a possibility but would take the Tudor Rose design too. I actually don't think the current one is too bad we just need to play more!

We do need to play more, it's a bit pointless putting too much thought in to it when we dont really play.

Something I've said before is that we dont really have an RL 'look'. NFL, NBA, MLB football, Aussie Rules, NHL, all have a distinct look that you can tell what sport it is immediately. We often just look like a cheap football shirt or a cycling shirt full of sponsors. 

I honestly think there is scope to create an RL look through the kit that helps us build recognition. 

One kind of already exists with the cotton style and cotton but ours look nothing like that anymore. 

Ive also seen old aussie shirts that are really distinctive with almost three quarter length sleeves. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

We do need to play more, it's a bit pointless putting too much thought in to it when we dont really play.

Something I've said before is that we dont really have an RL 'look'. NFL, NBA, MLB football, Aussie Rules, NHL, all have a distinct look that you can tell what sport it is immediately. We often just look like a cheap football shirt or a cycling shirt full of sponsors. 

I honestly think there is scope to create an RL look through the kit that helps us build recognition. 

One kind of already exists with the cotton style and cotton but ours look nothing like that anymore. 

Ive also seen old aussie shirts that are really distinctive with almost three quarter length sleeves. 

Thats true to an extent, but hoops, bands and Vees are almost exclusively Rugby League (especially in this country). I doubt we lose anything by anyone having anything similar to a Union club shirt either. Its telling that almost every new nation that plays RL I can think of incorporates a V or less commonly hoops onto their shirts. The identity is there it just needs pushing.

I do think the point about sponsors is valid though and I can see Elstone wanting to limit the numbers of sponsors on shirts. We aren't quite at French RU levels yet. Perhaps the sponsors, especially when poorly integrated, take away from the "brand image" of the club. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Thats true to an extent, but hoops, bands and Vees are almost exclusively Rugby League (especially in this country). I doubt we lose anything by anyone having anything similar to a Union club shirt either. Its telling that almost every new nation that plays RL I can think of incorporates a V or less commonly hoops onto their shirts. The identity is there it just needs pushing.

The V is synonymous with Rugby League. Hoops far less so, as a number of union and soccer teams have them. Get a V on the England shirt!

And get away from the white - make it predominantly blue or red. Rugby League having a predominantly white shirt is too similar to union. Most laypeople outside the heartlands don't really understand the 2 different sports, so don't confuse matters further by having kits that are too similar - make it very different. Otherwise it's akin to pepsi trying to compete with coca cola and using the same colour schemes on all their products.

When I first got into RL it was through watching internationals, and this was what the national team looked like compared to union:

Image result for gb rugby league 1990Image result for rob andrew 1990

There was a massive visual distinction between the two sports, so a novice could tell exactly what they were watching.

In contrast, the most recent England kits look like this:

Image result for tommy makinson 2018

Image result for owen farrell 2020

Far too similar for the uninitiated outside of the heartlands (i.e. who our target audience needs to be in order to raise our profile and grow). As a sport with a relatively low profile amongst the wider public, we really don't do ourselves any favours. 

If we don't develop a significantly different image, we run the risk of the wider public judging us in comparison to union like the examples below

Image result for aldi own brands compared to household goods

I don't really want Rugby League to be perceived by the wider public as Norpak...

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've said this before but I honestly don't understand why we couldn't have just used the GB kit design for England. Clearly the Lion and badge would have changed but the basic white shirt with a red/blue V could have been retained.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I preferred the Knight style shield logo previous to the Sports Direct esq one we have now. Is the mascot still a knight?

We should have just stuck with that........GB is the only logo with any credibility as it has been around a long time but I would not use that for England....it's the GB Lions logo.

3 Lions is too synonymous with football.

The current logo was part of the RFL rebrand that the Super league have got rid of so they may rebrand England again now

 

71R1FZNC0-L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

england-rugby-league-w2000h1160.jpg

RFL_logo_2017.jpg.png


england_identity2.jpg1921_button.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, tuutaisrambo said:

I preferred the Knight style shield logo previous to the Sports Direct esq one we have now. Is the mascot still a knight?

For me, the previous England logo screamed Sports Direct and knock-off England football supporters gear much more than the current one. It's virtually identical, and one of the reasons a lot of us hated it when it was launched. It just contributed to subconsciously reinforcing a market stall image for the sport for me.

image.png.27a798b0926dc1b61062789fe2809ebf.pngimage.thumb.png.6375f346de422ec39e32469da1c5daf8.pngimage.thumb.png.3bdf67c6ee6c13c66c25a6770587e1b4.png

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 19:56, Johnoco said:

Brazil which never changes - for a reason. 

It changed! It did change!

Ages ago, but still: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/world-cup-2014-meet-the-uruguay-fan-who-designed-brazils-iconic-yellow-kit-9569511.html

  • Thanks 1

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Johnoco said:

I never knew that.....but it is unlikely to change again. 

Aye. I just put it up for interest.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

The V is synonymous with Rugby League. Hoops far less so, as a number of union and soccer teams have them. Get a V on the England shirt!

And get away from the white - make it predominantly blue or red. Rugby League having a predominantly white shirt is too similar to union. 

England colours are red and white. The blue is purely from GB, which is a separate entity. Virtually everyone knows England colours are predominantly white, catering for one or two that might be confused is pointless. Union didn’t invent white shirts, they just use the predominant colour of the England flag, as should we - it’s really not copying. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Bert1 said:

League socks used to be like that look at the centenary kit.

I know they were but if you are wanting to steer clear of things that are "union" then copying their kit, no matter how much ours used to look like it many moons ago, is hardly the way to go is it?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

The V is synonymous with Rugby League. Hoops far less so, as a number of union and soccer teams have them. Get a V on the England shirt!

And get away from the white - make it predominantly blue or red. Rugby League having a predominantly white shirt is too similar to union. Most laypeople outside the heartlands don't really understand the 2 different sports, so don't confuse matters further by having kits that are too similar - make it very different. Otherwise it's akin to pepsi trying to compete with coca cola and using the same colour schemes on all their products.

When I first got into RL it was through watching internationals, and this was what the national team looked like compared to union:

Image result for gb rugby league 1990Image result for rob andrew 1990

There was a massive visual distinction between the two sports, so a novice could tell exactly what they were watching.

In contrast, the most recent England kits look like this:

Image result for tommy makinson 2018

Image result for owen farrell 2020

Far too similar for the uninitiated outside of the heartlands (i.e. who our target audience needs to be in order to raise our profile and grow). As a sport with a relatively low profile amongst the wider public, we really don't do ourselves any favours. 

If we don't develop a significantly different image, we run the risk of the wider public judging us in comparison to union like the examples below

Image result for aldi own brands compared to household goods

I don't really want Rugby League to be perceived by the wider public as Norpak...

 

wouldnt mind being POWER FORCE though!

 

Take that GB Shirt... turn the blue into red on shirt and the red into blue and I would go with that (dont mind a bit of navy on an england top, it would become the norm over a few years).. would put it with white shorts but maybe red (may be a bit much with red shorts though) and away we go.. 

Edited by RP London
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

England colours are red and white.

And yet England football have featured blue on their kit for years. England cricket wear blue in their one-dayers and have for 40 odd years. Australian sporting colours are green and gold despite neither being on the flag.

But if we were to stick to red and white. England hockey wear red as their home shirt. Perhaps the most famous English sporting image of all time is Bobby Moore lifting the World Cup wearing a red shirt. So there's no reason why we need to have predominantly white jerseys and risk increased confusion with RU.

55 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

catering for one or two that might be confused is pointless.

If it were one or two then I would agree with you, but unfortunately it's hundreds of thousands of armchair sports viewers who know extremely little about rugby league. Where I live, when I talk to the uninitiated about rugby league, the most common questions I get or used to get are "is that the one Jonny Wilkinson plays?" or "is that the one England plays?" (meaning RU in the 6 Nations).

57 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Union didn’t invent white shirts, they just use the predominant colour of the England flag, as should we - it’s really not copying. 

It's not about whether it's copying or not. It's about creating a distinct identity for our sport and our national team. Unfortunately we haven't got it at the moment, and the sport needs to be a lot smarter to get some easy wins in terms of increasing public awareness. As I mentioned earlier, you wouldn't have pepsi deciding to use all red cans in case consumers confused it with coca cola. The layperson out there has no clue why/how rugby league is different to union, so let's at least go for an easy win and have a visual distinction between the 2 sports.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...