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superten

how to improve home nations

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Ireland , Scotland and Wales need improving . Unfortunately neither at the moment can compete at the top table or have a club side in their country which can . Now if we introduced player quotas this might help them and develop them . If every super league had to have at least 2 players from Ireland, 2 from Scotland and 2 from Wales that would give each nation 24 players playing in top league . Then if every championship club had to have at least one player from each nation that would give each country another 14 players giving each nation at least a squad of 38 players from the top two divisions .

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Chief Crazy Eagle

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I don't really see how Scotland or Ireland playing against anything close to a full-strength England would help 'improve' them

Even England Knights would absolutely annihilate Scotland or Ireland - assuming they didn't get a load of guys from the NRL with heritage grandparents.

Supertens idea has some merit, albeit I doubt that there would be anything like the numbers of potential players to make it feasible. Perhaps on a smaller scale to start with?

In the end it's going to need someone with serious money to invest in starting up a genuine Scottish or Irish based semi-pro team, with a fully-costed plan to graduate to full-time pro over time. Same goes for Wales, really - because its' hard to see NWC or WWR producing genuine home-grown indigenous players of a good standard at the moment

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Improve in what sense? If you are talking about genuine long term growth you need investment in those countries with more players, clubs and getting the game played in schools.

If you are talking about solely improving the national teams then scour Super League and the NRL for players with grannies and grandad from those countries. They will only ever be England's reserves standard and will have zero credibility in those countries mind.

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if we can start by taking them at academy level and then into reserves . It might take five years but I would be worth it . To have an international European calendar of fixtures that are at least competitive would be priceless .   Once you get players playing for there country regular and competing it can only inspire others. 

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Chief Crazy Eagle

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As opposed to a quota system I feel a development slot may instead be beneficial, salary cap exemption for a domestic player from a Northern hemisphere country other than England. Obviously there would have to be certain stipulations worked out to ensure you don't have a situation where say Theo Fages or Reagan Grace just don't count on St Helens' cap, however it would certainly provide more of an incentive to take on players closer to the Quinn Ngawati level in the squad.

If not in SL it's definitely something the NRL with their greater resources should look to implement imo with their development list system to foster domestic players from outside the big 3. Probably looking to align more with the NFL international player pathway in that case, but even in that situation you could get French or Welsh guys getting a look in for a few seasons downunder at no cost to the clubs cap.

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14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I'm not sure that is the case, look at Tonga.

I'd also argue that a competitive international scene would act as a catalyst for more players in these areas to not only start playing the game but to stay with those nations.

 

Tonga and the Pacific Islands are a very different case and it should be obvious why. It should also be very obvious why Ireland, Scotland and Wales will never do a Tonga. I knew someone would say that though. There are occasions when Ireland and Scotland have done well and have barely got a mention. Without any proper domestic activity then heritage teams will have zero credibility in those countries and will never attract real support.

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8 minutes ago, Damien said:

Tonga and the Pacific Islands are a very different case and it should be obvious why. It should also be very obvious why Ireland, Scotland and Wales will never do a Tonga. I knew someone would say that though. There are occasions when Ireland and Scotland have done well and have barely got a mention. Without any proper domestic activity then heritage teams will have zero credibility in those countries and will never attract real support.

you could argue that for the rest of England outside the heartlands


Chief Crazy Eagle

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1 hour ago, superten said:

Ireland , Scotland and Wales need improving . Unfortunately neither at the moment can compete at the top table or have a club side in their country which can . Now if we introduced player quotas this might help them and develop them . If every super league had to have at least 2 players from Ireland, 2 from Scotland and 2 from Wales that would give each nation 24 players playing in top league . Then if every championship club had to have at least one player from each nation that would give each country another 14 players giving each nation at least a squad of 38 players from the top two divisions .

This could tie in with my suggestion on the expansion thread.

Each club, is aligned with a club in those regions and joint promote games, send representative players to those areas, get involved with local schools, gyms, sports clubs, work places etc, play exhibition games around those nations and get people involved, point them to local league clubs like Longhorns in Ireland and try and grow the game organically, rather than plonking a franchise in Edinburgh, Dublin or Cardiff and sit back and wait for it to be successful.

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44 minutes ago, UTK said:

As opposed to a quota system I feel a development slot may instead be beneficial, salary cap exemption for a domestic player from a Northern hemisphere country other than England. Obviously there would have to be certain stipulations worked out to ensure you don't have a situation where say Theo Fages or Reagan Grace just don't count on St Helens' cap, however it would certainly provide more of an incentive to take on players closer to the Quinn Ngawati level in the squad.

If not in SL it's definitely something the NRL with their greater resources should look to implement imo with their development list system to foster domestic players from outside the big 3. Probably looking to align more with the NFL international player pathway in that case, but even in that situation you could get French or Welsh guys getting a look in for a few seasons downunder at no cost to the clubs cap.

Yep, this.

I was about to post something very similar.

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44 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I'm not sure that is the case, look at Tonga.

I'd also argue that a competitive international scene would act as a catalyst for more players in these areas to not only start playing the game but to stay with those nations.

 

I agree

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Given the negative reaction towards Toronto from the RFL and SL I can’t see this happening, especially as it would cost them money. They don’t want expansion, even if someone is prepared to pay millions to do it for them. 

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33 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

What starts domestic activity?

The fact is all these things go hand in hand. 

An international team, even if based on heritage players can be the catalyst for people to take up/get involved in the game. A strong domestic scene is key to keeping it strong. And those two feed in to each other.

It isnt 'perfectly obvious' that those nations can never do a Tonga, they are very capable of doing so. They wont because of the structure of the international game.

It’s very different. A Scottish team for example would be made up of 13 Englishmen, many of whom had never been there and felt no tie to the place. That team wouldn’t be anywhere near as good as Tonga, English players wouldn’t prefer to play for them above England and the Scottish public wouldn’t be interested in an English team. 

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It would take a hell of a lot more than Batley taking a Scottish player annually to see any improvement in the national side.  

These countries will be relatively poor, let’s be honest. They can’t just throw money at developing players without having to cut back elsewhere, so it will have a knock-on effect elsewhere.

 

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34 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

What starts domestic activity?

The fact is all these things go hand in hand. 

An international team, even if based on heritage players can be the catalyst for people to take up/get involved in the game. A strong domestic scene is key to keeping it strong. And those two feed in to each other.

It isnt 'perfectly obvious' that those nations can never do a Tonga, they are very capable of doing so. They wont because of the structure of the international game.

No they don't go hand in hand, at all. You have no idea. No one in somewhere like Ireland gives two hoots about a faux Irish team when there is nothing domestically. 99.9% wouldn't even know about the existence of such a team or their matches. In the World Cup I didn't meet one person who was even aware of the World Cup or that Ireland had a team. That is the level of interest. Countless Irish posters on here have said this time and again. I'm not sure why you would think you know better.

Have you been involved in domestic activity in places like Ireland? I have. I know exactly what start it, drives it and keeps it going and its bleeding hard, time consuming and difficult. It certainly isn't a bunch of Super League players representing Ireland when it suits then jumping ship to England like Philbin wants to do. 

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The home Nations need 3 things. 1 amateur teams, 2 a professional academy, 3 a semi professional or fully professional club. From there it’s a long process and they won’t be competing with England anytime soon but those are the foundations. 

Edited by Sir Kevin Sinfield
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6 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

The home Nations need 3 things. 1 amateur teams, 2 a professional academy, 3 a semi professional or fully professional club. From there it’s a long process and they won’t be competing with England anytime soon but those are the foundations. 

That's more like it. The only country remotely like this, bar England obviously, is Wales. Wales made great strides when a well funded Celtic Crusaders were around and they had that proper pyramid in place. Its just a pity that the money dried up.

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55 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It’s very different. A Scottish team for example would be made up of 13 Englishmen, many of whom had never been there and felt no tie to the place. That team wouldn’t be anywhere near as good as Tonga, English players wouldn’t prefer to play for them above England and the Scottish public wouldn’t be interested in an English team. 

Correct, most Tongans are Australian or NZ born to Tongan parents or Tongan born but lived and played most of their lives in Australia, therefore they are Tongan by birth or by birth rite.

Scotland has very few "Scottish" players, most of the home nations have very few players without the 'heritage' rule to call upon, that's why you can't compare Tonga to any Northern hemisphere nation.

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4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

No one in ireland gives two hoots anyway. 

If you want to go pick and irish team from purely irish players they are going to get 100+ put on them and nobody will watch. 

I'm sure Ireland, Jamaica, Lebanon, et al benefit from playing in world cups and the visibility and money such a thing brings in. 

That is only possible if they are able to compete. 

Remove heritage players and you remove the visibility of a proper international game no matter what some random people you spoke to in ireland once said

Oh so now you've shown you haven't a clue what you are talking about you've moved on to something else with a new set of wrong assumptions and completely different arguments.

If its about keeping a charade come World Cup time then fair enough. I'm fine with that. However don't pretend that it does one iota to develop the game in Ireland.

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To even create initial interest and have a chance of maintaining it we need to have the other home nations be of a consistent level of competitiveness even if that for the time being is a bit behind England. So we need to reduce the number of players that have opted to represent one of them switching to England after a WC. If players can opt for one of those three to effectively use it as an England trial and switch once they have played at a WC forever then those nations will only ever be considered England Reserves.

We need IMO to bite the bullet and create a regular (either annual or at the least biannual) tournament involving all the home nations and France. Yes it would be very similar to the 6 nations and yes it would be easily won by England for the first few years at least but neither of those are reasons to not do it. If those other nations don't start regularly playing England then they will never have a prospect of closing the gap or embedding the event of a RL game vs England (or the others) in the thinking of the natives. Getting more of the people in Ireland/Scotland/Wales to know about and look forward to games against their near neighbours would make it more likely that the desire to found community clubs and to play for them (and later semi pro/pro clubs) could be fostered.

When sending a touring team to the SH we should send GB not England (ignore the laughable tour that Wayne Bennett presided over) (England could play one or two games vs Aus/NZ rather than larger tours so that they still play them too) with players able to stake their claim for a tour place by playing and performing for any of the home nations. When SH teams come here to tour then we can have the winners of the most recent home nations/France tournament play them twice (three times if willing) with each of the others getting a single test against them. Every player that has switched from Ireland/Scotland/Wales to England has cited a desire to test themselves against Aus & NZ and that only England provide that opportunity.  By alllowing Joe Philbin (the latest to announce a desire to switch to England) to play for Ireland and still be able to put his hand up for a spot on SH tours (rather than as now with only England playing them) whilst also knowing he can also get the chance to play against them for Ireland at home we reduce the need for players like him to feel they have to switch to England.

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Do nations get some sort of financial remuneration for taking part in the World Cup and getting to certain stages from the RLIF/the organisers? 

I do wonder what the point is of Scotland and Ireland, a little bit less so Wales though they’re only helped by a genuine push in the Welsh game around the time Celtic Crusaders were around and that’s seen a handful of Welsh born players emerging and making a career of Rugby League. 

 

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3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It does plenty to develop RL in ireland and it's absolutely moronic to pretend it doesnt. 

The world cup is the most visible Rugby tournament in the world. More people will see it than any other format.

it's exactly the same argument made before, competitive international RL can be the catalyst for people to get involved in the sport. You've just got your panties in  twist and descended in to ad hominems. 

I know it doesn't and have been involved in developing RL in Ireland, have you? What have you done? I know for a fact that everyone I knew was blissfully unaware of Ireland even being in the World Cup or that a World Cup was taking place. To make out otherwise is a complete lie.

Edited by Damien

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

It does plenty to develop RL in ireland and it's absolutely moronic to pretend it doesnt. 

The world cup is the most visible Rugby tournament in the world. More people will see it than any other format.

it's exactly the same argument made before, competitive international RL can be the catalyst for people to get involved in the sport. You've just got your panties in  twist and descended in to ad hominems. 

If it’s not on Irish tv or reported in their media very few people will see it. For example I wouldn’t know if England were playing in the Hurling World Cup. 

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Just now, scotchy1 said:

However small it may be it.doesnt alter the fact it is the most visible aspect.

Its not visible in Ireland. You seem to keep ignoring this fact.,

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