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"Clears throat". Let's spell it out for the millionth time.  The Toronto "debacle" was not a "debacle" at all. They were investing far more money in the game than other "super" league clubs. But then

Its not particularly what I like to see but it makes complete sense. It would have been crazy to start a new club next year with Covid. A plan and strategy needs to be agreed in the meantime on h

So a thread on Ottawa has turned into another Toronto bashing exercise. You can claim they are linked to a degree, but how many threads do you need to say the same thing over and over again?

19 hours ago, Eddie said:

Another own goal from Rugby League. 

Now if Manchester  Rangers were able to resurrect their Board and chose to acquire  the apparently  moveable

membership that is currently  Ottowa  the RFL would be powerless to prevent it ?

Wicked thoughts but it is a bleak sunday afternoon outside................

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On 08/11/2020 at 14:36, del capo said:

Now if Manchester  Rangers were able to resurrect their Board and chose to acquire  the apparently  moveable

membership that is currently  Ottowa  the RFL would be powerless to prevent it ?

Wicked thoughts but it is a bleak sunday afternoon outside................

I believe you're wrong about RL's ability to retract and contract in an illogical, sinister and ever so slightly slimy manner.

And don't be blaming Sunday or the weather for your posts or mood, either.

Edited by Oxford

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Oxford said:

I believe you're wrong abou RL's ability to retract and contract in an illogical, sinister and ever so slightly slimy manner.

And don't be blaming Sunday or the weather for your posts or mood, either.

They let Hemel transfer ownership to Canada. To a club not then in existence.

They cannot prevent a return of that membership or ' franchise ' or whatever you want to call it to an existing club in the UK. They'd get their ***** sued off them.

And as for my mood actually quite up beat at the moment. Should be sweeping up the leaves for the green bin but it's not due till next week so that job can wait.......

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1 minute ago, del capo said:

They let Hemel transfer ownership to Canada. To a club not then in existence.

They cannot prevent a return of that membership or ' franchise ' or whatever you want to call it to an existing club in the UK. They'd get their ***** sued off them.

And as for my mood actually quite up beat at the moment. Should be sweeping up the leaves for the green bin but it's not due till next week so that job can wait.......

They can prevent it. 

Firstly, we have to remind ourselves once again that there are no such thing as licenses or franchises in British rugby league, just membership of the members club that is called the RFL. 

Hemel were a member, but when the club was sold, the RFL had to consent to the membership being transferred to new owners. 

They did consent, but only subject to the new owners signing up to a participation agreement covering all sorts of things.

Its like, if I was a member of a golf club, I can't just sell my membership to someone else, the club has to consent to the transfer. 

Same for RFL. Ottawa ownership group could sell to someone else, but the RFL membership will only be transferred to the new owners if the RFL consents. 

They would probably reject Manchester next time for the same reasons as before, more's the shame. 

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7 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

They can prevent it. 

Firstly, we have to remind ourselves once again that there are no such thing as licenses or franchises in British rugby league, just membership of the members club that is called the RFL. 

Hemel were a member, but when the club was sold, the RFL had to consent to the membership being transferred to new owners. 

They did consent, but only subject to the new owners signing up to a participation agreement covering all sorts of things.

Its like, if I was a member of a golf club, I can't just sell my membership to someone else, the club has to consent to the transfer. 

Same for RFL. Ottawa ownership group could sell to someone else, but the RFL membership will only be transferred to the new owners if the RFL consents. 

They would probably reject Manchester next time for the same reasons as before, more's the shame. 

slightly off topic what were those reasons? Is there a set of guidelines available? I seem to remember Manchester Rangers being asked for a substantial bond or something. Ta

 

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2 minutes ago, Wanderer said:

slightly off topic what were those reasons? Is there a set of guidelines available? I seem to remember Manchester Rangers being asked for a substantial bond or something. Ta

 

Others will know better than me for sure, but the chat on here at the time was that the other Greater Manchester clubs vetoed the application on the grounds that the new club would be drawing on the same pool of North West semi-pro players. 

If that was the case then it was the usual short-sightedness, as Manchester would have been able to start bringing their own players through within 3 or 4 years, no time at all really.

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39 minutes ago, del capo said:

Now if Manchester  Rangers were able to resurrect their Board and chose to acquire  the apparently  moveable

membership that is currently  Ottowa  the RFL would be powerless to prevent it ?

Wicked thoughts but it is a bleak sunday afternoon outside................

Ironically I was put walking near Hemel an hour ago (Apsley) and it was a beautiful sunny and mild Sunday! 

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37 minutes ago, del capo said:

They let Hemel transfer ownership to Canada. To a club not then in existence.

They cannot prevent a return of that membership or ' franchise ' or whatever you want to call it to an existing club in the UK. They'd get their ***** sued off them.

And as for my mood actually quite up beat at the moment. Should be sweeping up the leaves for the green bin but it's not due till next week so that job can wait.......

They cannot prevent the return or insist on it I would imagine.

Leaf mould is useful stuff and glad your mood's in the pink.

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Others will know better than me for sure, but the chat on here at the time was that the other Greater Manchester clubs vetoed the application on the grounds that the new club would be drawing on the same pool of North West semi-pro players. 

If that was the case then it was the usual short-sightedness, as Manchester would have been able to start bringing their own players through within 3 or 4 years, no time at all really.

yes and for example,  I am a Widnes fan living in central Salford and wouldn't watch any of the other GM  teams but would have given the Rangers a shot. I was looking forward to it

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3 minutes ago, Oxford said:

They cannot prevent the return or insist on it I would imagine.

Leaf mould is useful stuff and glad your mood's in the pink.

 

If the Rangers went for it and the RFL blocked it they would be sued off the park.

Natural justice , Wednesbury principles ( ok that's legal stuff ) and even restrain of trade arguments would bury them.

As for leaf mould , I think my missus would prefer to see some green on the lawn before Easter......

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54 minutes ago, del capo said:

If the Rangers went for it and the RFL blocked it they would be sued off the park.😳

Natural justice , Wednesbury principles ( ok that's legal stuff ) and even restrain of trade arguments would bury them.😲

As for leaf mould , I think my missus would prefer to see some green on the lawn before Easter......🤣

 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, del capo said:

If the Rangers went for it and the RFL blocked it they would be sued off the park.

.

The Rfl wanted some money,I believe.

I think this link covers it https://www.totalrl.com/forums/index.php?/topic/338633-rfl-treatment-of-manchester-rangers-a-disgrace/

     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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On 08/11/2020 at 14:59, Toby Chopra said:

They can prevent it. 

Firstly, we have to remind ourselves once again that there are no such thing as licenses or franchises in British rugby league, just membership of the members club that is called the RFL. 

Hemel were a member, but when the club was sold, the RFL had to consent to the membership being transferred to new owners. 

They did consent, but only subject to the new owners signing up to a participation agreement covering all sorts of things.

Its like, if I was a member of a golf club, I can't just sell my membership to someone else, the club has to consent to the transfer. 

Same for RFL. Ottawa ownership group could sell to someone else, but the RFL membership will only be transferred to the new owners if the RFL consents. 

They would probably reject Manchester next time for the same reasons as before, more's the shame. 

There was a 12 point deduction for the Cougars when they had a change of ownership. Just saying.

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I might be premature but I think the need for a TWP or Ottawa thread has exceeded the sellby, use by, relevant or useful dates now.

The periond of expansion is over.

If anyone knows those who left the sport over this issue, it's time to tell them it's all gone away and it's safe to come back.

 

 

 

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On 07/11/2020 at 04:22, TheReaper said:

That's roughly the amount of cities that can support a professional team. Not just in football, the NHL only has 7 Canadian teams. The new soccer and basketball leagues are also around that number.  There are maybe a couple more that could support a CFL team but it would require building stadiums and that's a big hurdle. We were getting pretty close in Halifax before covid, who knows what will happen there now.

That shows a real difference between UK and N American sport (and British RL in particular).

Okay, we're more densely populated, but it's slightly over 200 miles from Toronto to Ottawa and that isn't far enough to justify another team.

It's about half that distance from Hull to Widnes and there are 10 SL teams (maybe 11 next year) plus 14 Championship & League 1 clubs in that area.

Kingston (Ontario, not upon Hull) has three times the population of Castleford, but doesn't justify a professional sports team. That said, we've just been told Toronto doesn't either!

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28 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

That shows a real difference between UK and N American sport (and British RL in particular).

Okay, we're more densely populated, but it's slightly over 200 miles from Toronto to Ottawa and that isn't far enough to justify another team.

It's about half that distance from Hull to Widnes and there are 10 SL teams (maybe 11 next year) plus 14 Championship & League 1 clubs in that area.

Kingston (Ontario, not upon Hull) has three times the population of Castleford, but doesn't justify a professional sports team. That said, we've just been told Toronto doesn't either!

The thing is, to run a team in a major NA sport (even the CFL), requires

- a high quality facility (stadium plus training facilities)

- lots of $ to fund playing, coaching and back office staff

To get these you need an owner willing to invest, a city willing to make land available for stadium and training facility development, or allow existing facilities to be upgraded, a good sized local population from which to both draw support and to become TV viewers for away games, since distances often remove the travelling fan element, or at least reduce it to a hardy few who combine the game with a city break. If you have the ready made TV audience you can sell this to TV companies.

Therefore comparisons between Canada, a huge country with a smaller population than the UK and the UK are fairly meaningless, however what is interesting is that the majority of Canada’s population is resident in the area between Windsor, Ontario and Montreal, so if you were hoping to place 1 or 2 potentially successful teams in a new sport then that’s where you would do it. The fact that SL now seem to be saying there’s no potential there should indicate that the age of expansion, if it ever really existed, is now over.

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As my eldest son attends Western University and plays gridiron football for the Mustangs I have become a little more familiar with London, Ontario. It’s a city with a population of around 125,000, plus around 30,000 students when university is in residence. For a city that size there is no major league sport, the Knights are a junior OHL hockey team, the next most senior clubs are then the University teams. Now I don’t know the size of crowds attracted to most of the university sports except for football, where the Mustangs average around 4-4,500 paying spectators (average ticket price $35) in a 10,000 capacity, open air stadium, totally suitable for university sport and dare I say it better appointed than a lot of RL stadia, but nowhere near what would be considered to be Major League standard over here. The Mustangs also have a portfolio of sponsors which would definitely match some SL outfits and better corporate hospitality facilities , plus their games are streamed live online, yet this is in a city which would never be considered for any major league sports team, so if Mr Elstone and his friends think that there’s no potential in Canada, it does make me wonder if there’s any potential anywhere.

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27 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

As my eldest son attends Western University and plays gridiron football for the Mustangs I have become a little more familiar with London, Ontario. It’s a city with a population of around 125,000, plus around 30,000 students when university is in residence. For a city that size there is no major league sport, the Knights are a junior OHL hockey team, the next most senior clubs are then the University teams. Now I don’t know the size of crowds attracted to most of the university sports except for football, where the Mustangs average around 4-4,500 paying spectators (average ticket price $35) in a 10,000 capacity, open air stadium, totally suitable for university sport and dare I say it better appointed than a lot of RL stadia, but nowhere near what would be considered to be Major League standard over here. The Mustangs also have a portfolio of sponsors which would definitely match some SL outfits and better corporate hospitality facilities , plus their games are streamed live online, yet this is in a city which would never be considered for any major league sports team, so if Mr Elstone and his friends think that there’s no potential in Canada, it does make me wonder if there’s any potential anywhere.

I live in London and it's a lot bigger than 125,000, more than triple that size in fact.  The city's population in 2016 was 383, 822.

Elstone and his friends were out to sandbag Toronto, that's why they produced that BS report claiming that there's no potential here.

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7 hours ago, Oldbear said:

As my eldest son attends Western University and plays gridiron football for the Mustangs I have become a little more familiar with London, Ontario. It’s a city with a population of around 125,000, plus around 30,000 students when university is in residence. For a city that size there is no major league sport, the Knights are a junior OHL hockey team, the next most senior clubs are then the University teams. Now I don’t know the size of crowds attracted to most of the university sports except for football, where the Mustangs average around 4-4,500 paying spectators (average ticket price $35) in a 10,000 capacity, open air stadium, totally suitable for university sport and dare I say it better appointed than a lot of RL stadia, but nowhere near what would be considered to be Major League standard over here. The Mustangs also have a portfolio of sponsors which would definitely match some SL outfits and better corporate hospitality facilities , plus their games are streamed live online, yet this is in a city which would never be considered for any major league sports team, so if Mr Elstone and his friends think that there’s no potential in Canada, it does make me wonder if there’s any potential anywhere.

Do you really believe Elstone and his 2 cronies even know there is a London in Canada ?

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2 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Do you really believe Elstone and his 2 cronies even know there is a London in Canada ?

They probably didn't bother going into that much depth on Wiki. Lets face it they couldn't even google and copy the name of Toronto's Ice Hockey team correctly.

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17 hours ago, Big Picture said:

I live in London and it's a lot bigger than 125,000, more than triple that size in fact.  The city's population in 2016 was 383, 822.

Elstone and his friends were out to sandbag Toronto, that's why they produced that BS report claiming that there's no potential here.

I apologize on the numbers, the city sure has grown a lot in recent years, however it still doesn’t get over my point that it would not be considered a venue for a Major League sports team. I agree about the report, however would go as far as to say it was to destroy any overseas expansion full stop, unless Toulouse go and do Elstones job for him and get their own TV deal.

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3 hours ago, Oldbear said:

I apologize on the numbers, the city sure has grown a lot in recent years, however it still doesn’t get over my point that it would not be considered a venue for a Major League sports team. I agree about the report, however would go as far as to say it was to destroy any overseas expansion full stop, unless Toulouse go and do Elstones job for him and get their own TV deal.

Of course it wouldn't ever be considered a venue for a Major League franchise, other than Green Bay they're all based in big cities.  I agree that report was to destroy any overseas expansion, after all the game's track record in the UK is that whenever push has come to shove it has always been ready to sacrifice expansion to protect the traditional clubs and what happened is very much in keeping with that.

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