Fri 27 Nov: SL Grand Final: Wigan Warriors v St Helens KO 8pm (Sky)

[Savinivas]

2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Just gone to have a look at his tweets. 

The first reply I read was some guy with an England RU badge as his twitter pic saying this...

Has watching this game got you converted then Tony lad !!!! If ya up for a game sometime at @Twickenhamstad  just give us a shout

knob

This sort of stuff happens on Reddit all the time.

Someone will post a Rugby League highlight and it will be filled with people, generally Americans, saying they'd love to know more about the game...Queue a tonne of rugby union fans appearing saying "If you like this, come and join us at r/rugbyunion and we'll teach you everything you need to know!"

It's infuriating.

[usain bolt]

I find it hard to believe that Bibby was signed as just cover, and expected to play in reserve grade as back up to another 3 wingers in Marshall, Burgess, Manfredi and back back up to 2 centres in Gildart and Hankinson with Hardaker and French both covering full back and both able to play across the full back line. Especially having starred all season in a grand final appearing squad at Salford. Surely he was signed to star in the starting 17, rather than be a hole filler. 

[Futtocks]

1 hour ago, Savinivas said:

This sort of stuff happens on Reddit all the time.

Someone will post a Rugby League highlight and it will be filled with people, generally Americans, saying they'd love to know more about the game...Queue a tonne of rugby union fans appearing saying "If you like this, come and join us at r/rugbyunion and we'll teach you everything you need to know!"

It's infuriating.

You get quite a few react channels on YouTube, and they eventually get the message that there are two types of Rugby. Greg Inglis, Jason Taumalolo, Shaun Johnson and Josh Addo-Carr are big favourites with most of them.

Plus there are videos like the much-reacted-to "Rugby Hits-Till I collapse" which opens with slo-mo* Rugby Union footage, but as soon as the actual action starts, it's 99% Rugby League content from then on. Pitifully opportunist, really.

*possibly full speed, but who can tell?

[yipyee]

Mentioned this on another thread in the middle of last week and managed to find the write up!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/1326234.stm

[redjonn]

13 hours ago, Padge said:

The problem I, and a lot of others, had with it was that he was not likely to get it dead if he missed, I know a lot of people, who like me said it was a bad call at the time.

Absolutely... plus even if knocked on they would have been in Saints last 20 at least and fully lined up defensively.

The killer was that Lomax was able to make lots of yards which made getting in range more feasible... Wigan were not fully lined up or concentrating defensively whilst the kick was taking place, which created the space for Lomax run out.

It was a poor call, but in the intensity of the game, shear tiredness one would imagine their football brains were not as sharp as normal. 

 Just one of those things that adds to the drama and talking points...

As a matter of interest what was Lams instruction from the stands.

[Padge]

1 minute ago, redjonn said:

Absolutely... plus even if knocked on they would have been in Saints last 20 at least and fully lined up defensively.

The killer was that Lomax was able to make lots of yards which made getting in range more feasible... Wigan were not fully lined up or concentrating defensively whilst the kick was taking place, which created the space for Lomax run out.

It was a poor call, but in the intensity of the game, shear tiredness one would imagine their football brains were not as sharp as normal. 

 Just one of those things that adds to the drama and talking points...

As a matter of interest what was Lams instruction from the stands.

I think it was an on pitch call. I am sure a commentator said Hastings called go for the two.

[redjonn]

13 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Yeh, it was pretty uncontroversial at the time I thought. Seemed like a no-lose, if they get it (and they very nearly did), if they don't they've almost certainly got extra time.

You can't make your decisions based on the possibility an event like the last few seconds might happen! 

maybe... yet the whole game to me seemed to be based on low risk percentages... or in other words, limiting the possibility of error or giving the opponents the least opportunity.

[Ullman]

31 minutes ago, redjonn said:

Absolutely... plus even if knocked on they would have been in Saints last 20 at least and fully lined up defensively.

The killer was that Lomax was able to make lots of yards which made getting in range more feasible... Wigan were not fully lined up or concentrating defensively whilst the kick was taking place, which created the space for Lomax run out.

It was a poor call, but in the intensity of the game, shear tiredness one would imagine their football brains were not as sharp as normal. 

 Just one of those things that adds to the drama and talking points...

As a matter of interest what was Lams instruction from the stands.

In the post-match interview with the BBC Lam said Hardaker was asked if he was confident about landing it and the answer was yes.

[Dunbar]

Just watched the last 2 minutes unfold again.

The penalty was blown for Wigan at 78:13 and the kick taken at 79:06.  Personally I think if you get a shot at penalty goal from inside halfway with the scores tied at 4-4 in a Grand Final you take the shot.

The kick fell just short and Lomax took the ball in his in goal.  As redjonn says, the key is that Lomax managed to make 25 metres upfield before any contact with a Wigan defender and he played the ball just short of the Saints 30 metre line.  4 tackles later and Saints were playing the ball on Wigan's 30 metre line and the rest is history.  A better chase from Wigan could have seen a different outcome (extra time no doubt).

All the chat about Wigan kicking for touch is and then lining up the 1 pointer is fine but that play is riddled with uncertainty.  I would have taken the penalty shot at goal every day of the week.

[Padge]

18 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Just watched the last 2 minutes unfold again.

The penalty was blown for Wigan at 78:13 and the kick taken at 79:06.  Personally I think if you get a shot at penalty goal from inside halfway with the scores tied at 4-4 in a Grand Final you take the shot.

The kick fell just short and Lomax took the ball in his in goal.  As redjonn says, the key is that Lomax managed to make 25 metres upfield before any contact with a Wigan defender and he played the ball just short of the Saints 30 metre line.  4 tackles later and Saints were playing the ball on Wigan's 30 metre line and the rest is history.  A better chase from Wigan could have seen a different outcome (extra time no doubt).

All the chat about Wigan kicking for touch is and then lining up the 1 pointer is fine but that play is riddled with uncertainty.  I would have taken the penalty shot at goal every day of the week.

I think the people saying he shouldn't have gone for it are people who have seen Hardaker take, and miss, a lot of kicks. 

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, Padge said:

I think the people saying he shouldn't have gone for it are people who have seen Hardaker take, and miss, a lot of kicks. 

I agree that is part of the equation, he is not a top class kicker. 

I would still have given him the chance though. He missed both his shots but one hit the cross bar from the sideline and the other fell just short from 45 out.

I just think if you are given a scoring chance 2 minutes from the hooter in a Grand Final with the scores tied... you have a shot.

[Padge]

14 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I agree that is part of the equation, he is not a top class kicker. 

I would still have given him the chance though. He missed both his shots but one hit the cross bar from the sideline and the other fell just short from 45 out.

I just think if you are given a scoring chance 2 minutes from the hooter in a Grand Final with the scores tied... you have a shot.

Even when you know he has next to no chance of getting it. The first kick was about 35 yards and he didn't get the distance, the second was 45 yards. I haven't spoken to a Wigan supporter yet who thought it was the right decision with Hardaker as the kicker.

[Dunbar]

26 minutes ago, Padge said:

Even when you know he has next to no chance of getting it. The first kick was about 35 yards and he didn't get the distance, the second was 45 yards. I haven't spoken to a Wigan supporter yet who thought it was the right decision with Hardaker as the kicker.

Its all about balance of probability. Maybe he had a low chance of scoring but so would Wigan in the 90 seconds that remained and so a low probability of taking a scoring chance on offer is better than a low probability of even getting another chance.

[redjonn]

48 minutes ago, Padge said:

I think the people saying he shouldn't have gone for it are people who have seen Hardaker take, and miss, a lot of kicks. 

must admit I'm one of those having seen his goal kicking when at Leeds, especially if it was a pressure kick - he didn't seem to have those nerves of steel for those real win or lose kicks...

Then again he has improved but i still remember him missing the not so difficult (if one can say that) one's if it was important...

Unfair maybe but before the game started both the missus and I agreed that his goal kicking in such a pressure game may be a problem...

[redjonn]

51 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I agree that is part of the equation, he is not a top class kicker. 

I would still have given him the chance though. He missed both his shots but one hit the cross bar from the sideline and the other fell just short from 45 out.

I just think if you are given a scoring chance 2 minutes from the hooter in a Grand Final with the scores tied... you have a shot.

On reflection its hard to disagree - one thing its kept us talking about the game...

[Niels]

26 minutes ago, Padge said:

Even when you know he has next to no chance of getting it. The first kick was about 35 yards and he didn't get the distance, the second was 45 yards. I haven't spoken to a Wigan supporter yet who thought it was the right decision with Hardaker as the kicker.

He nearly did get it though. I think as Dunbar said, it would have not been a problem had Wigan followed up the kick as St Helens did with the drop goal. 

Interestingly St Helens declined a kick at goal from a similar position and kicked to touch. Even with the top goalkicker in the league. They then gained a penalty in the set straight after which made it 4-4 so it was the correct decision. 

It was a game where St Helens just edged the crucial margins. Laghlan Coote had a difficult ball to deal with in the in goal area but dealt with it. Bevan French hesitated. 

Even at the end Fages played the ball in the very split second the hooter went. Had the defender held on a micro second more it would have been extra time, I doubt the ref would have given a penalty. 

 

[Padge]

14 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Its all about balance of probability. Maybe he had a low chance of scoring but so would Wigan in the 90 seconds that remained and so a low probability of taking a scoring chance on offer is better than a low probability of even getting another chance.

So WIgan wouldn't have time to score but Saints did score with less time to score. Your logic doesn't stand up.

[Dunbar]

10 minutes ago, Padge said:

So WIgan wouldn't have time to score but Saints did score with less time to score. Your logic doesn't stand up.

I am happy with us having a different opinion but that is not what I said.

I said a low probability.  There is a difference between low chance and no chance. 

[Padge]

11 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I am happy with us having a different opinion but that is not what I said.

I said a low probability.  There is a difference between low chance and no chance. 

Low probability, riddled with uncertainty, sounds pretty much like you have written off Wigan's chances of scoring with that sort of phraseology.

Again, having watched Hardaker's kicking I think there was more probability of Wigan scoring a try or dropping a goal than there was of Hardaker getting that kick. 

[Jim Prendle]

11 minutes ago, Padge said:

Low probability, riddled with uncertainty, sounds pretty much like you have written off Wigan's chances of scoring with that sort of phraseology.

Again, having watched Hardaker's kicking I think there was more probability of Wigan scoring a try or dropping a goal than there was of Hardaker getting that kick. 

I agree with that. Hardaker's kicking has been average, at best, all season, so the likelihood of him kicking that one from 45 metres was very low. However, it's done now, can't take the decision back, but we do need to look for other kicking options for next season.

[my missus]

59 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

I agree with that. Hardaker's kicking has been average, at best, all season, so the likelihood of him kicking that one from 45 metres was very low. However, it's done now, can't take the decision back, but we do need to look for other kicking options for next season.

hardly been average kicking 58 and finishing second to coote he does seem to have a problem with kicks from closer in though but that can be improved on.

[redjonn]

15 minutes ago, my missus said:

hardly been average kicking 58 and finishing second to coote he does seem to have a problem with kicks from closer in though but that can be improved on.

maybe but key for me is the mental toughness for those make or break kicks... as I said in early comments my observation from his Leeds goal kicking was the  one's that decided win/lose/key moment situations rather than kicks without that extra pressure... yep he kicked the one's that didn't really matter or early in the game but when it was a key pressure moment he fluffed, sometimes quite badly...

Irrespective of his kicking he is a really good player. Not someone I would put money on in a pressure situation... even though he has improved his goal kicking.

[Dunbar]

If Harry Smith locks down a starting position next year he could potentially take over goal kicking duties as it is a strong part of his game.

[Jim Prendle]

1 hour ago, my missus said:

hardly been average kicking 58 and finishing second to coote he does seem to have a problem with kicks from closer in though but that can be improved on.

 

[Rupert Prince]

15 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

If Harry Smith locks down a starting position next year he could potentially take over goal kicking duties as it is a strong part of his game.

Smith should start. He has had plenty experience now.  If Hastings was going to stay for a long term contract I suspect Lam would have him at 9, and Smith would assuredly start.  But the question is ought Tommy be given a extension.  It's all a bit grist to the mill, but Smith should be given a start.