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4 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Wigan and Saints are the best clubs at bringing though talent consistently who reach their potential.

Wigan signed props George Burgess, Joe Bullock, Brad Singleton and Mitch Clark. Havard only got plenty of game time because of injuries which is how most youngsters get their chance, the same as Smithies replacing the injured O’Loughlin. 

Leeds certainly produce more Super League players than Saints.

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I didn't come on here to argue with you about the signing of Tetevano as I said at the beginning that he was a quality prop and a good signing for Leeds.  But seeing as though you have argued that he

The only thing that comes to mind when I see his name is the domestic violence.

Yeah I think what I wrote speaks for itself - teams like Wigan made a bit of a fool of themselves over the whole Folau saga. And not because they shouldn't support Gay pride (they absolutely should),

On 28 December 2020 at 13:29, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Wigan signed props George Burgess, Joe Bullock, Brad Singleton and Mitch Clark. Havard only got plenty of game time because of injuries which is how most youngsters get their chance, the same as Smithies replacing the injured O’Loughlin. 

Leeds certainly produce more Super League players than Saints.

Havard was starting before Singleton arrived and beat out Clark on form,he'd have played in the GF if fit.

Smithies was regularly in the starting 13 with O'Loughlin on the bench.

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On ‎28‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 13:29, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Wigan signed props George Burgess, Joe Bullock, Brad Singleton and Mitch Clark. Havard only got plenty of game time because of injuries which is how most youngsters get their chance, the same as Smithies replacing the injured O’Loughlin. 

Leeds certainly produce more Super League players than Saints.

But its been a long time since they've produced any of real quality

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Adios EU - Global Britain here we come !!!

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31 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

But its been a long time since they've produced any of real quality

You might not have been looking closely enough but Newman and Oledzki are the real deal.

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31 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

But its been a long time since they've produced any of real quality

Harry Newman was the young player of the year last year... up against some quality opposition.

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2 minutes ago, Live after death said:

Walkers only 20 plus alex Sutcliffe cameron smith, Holroyd and  some real talent just on the fringe.

Walker is only 20! Hard to comprehend given he played in the last Leeds Grand Final winning side but yes you're right. He needs to overcome the persistent injuries and develop his passing game if he's to continue to progress. Myler being there is both a help and a hindrance for him.

Cam Smith was playing amazingly before lockdown and I have complete faith that, if he's played in the right position, he will become another international. Holroyd and Sutcliffe I think it's too early for me to say.

But anyway Saint Toppy's point was incorrect. What Leeds suffered from - suffered is the wrong word - is there were roadblock players across the park for so many years that younger players just didn't get a look in. And yes in part that was down to how Brian McDermott used young players as well. Agar is I think a better person to have in charge at this stage of the club's evolution.

 

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36 minutes ago, M j M said:

You might not have been looking closely enough but Newman and Oledzki are the real deal.

Not yet their not.

Promise - Yes, but not achieved anything as yet. Time will tell whether they turn out to be real quality or yet another in a long line of Leeds flops of recent years.

Adios EU - Global Britain here we come !!!

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1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said:

Not yet their not.

Promise - Yes, but not achieved anything as yet. Time will tell whether they turn out to be real quality or yet another in a long line of Leeds flops of recent years.

Can you give us a list of the others?

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The Golden Generation stunted junior development - it would have blocked Leeds from bothering to push for the best juniors in some positions (like halfback). 

Where the club let itself down was not going back to the basics of junior development earlier - we've had very few quality youngsters ready to step up since 2015.  In 2018 when we were once again awful Holroyd was the only junior who debuted.  I'd say that was one reason why McDermott had to go - he wrung the last out of the quality players he had but oversaw a deficit in junior production which contributed to standards falling catastrophically once they were gone.

Here's Leeds' junior debutants from 2015 to 2019 (I've left out this year which was different for everyone):

Jordan Lilley (2015), Josh Jordan-Roberts, Sam Hallas, Cameron Smith (2016), Harry Newman, Mikolaj Oledzki, Alex Sutcliffe, Jack Walker, Harvey Whiteley (2017), Tom Holroyd (2018), Corey Johnson, Muizz Mustapha, Owen Trout (2019).

So 13 debuts, of which 6 have already left.  If a club the size of Leeds with its resources can't produce at least 2 quality juniors a year then the sport is in deep doodoo.  I'd say you need at least that for the sport to be self sufficient.

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11 minutes ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

The Golden Generation stunted junior development - it would have blocked Leeds from bothering to push for the best juniors in some positions (like halfback). 

Where the club let itself down was not going back to the basics of junior development earlier - we've had very few quality youngsters ready to step up since 2015.  In 2018 when we were once again awful Holroyd was the only junior who debuted.  I'd say that was one reason why McDermott had to go - he wrung the last out of the quality players he had but oversaw a deficit in junior production which contributed to standards falling catastrophically once they were gone.

Here's Leeds' junior debutants from 2015 to 2019 (I've left out this year which was different for everyone):

Jordan Lilley (2015), Josh Jordan-Roberts, Sam Hallas, Cameron Smith (2016), Harry Newman, Mikolaj Oledzki, Alex Sutcliffe, Jack Walker, Harvey Whiteley (2017), Tom Holroyd (2018), Corey Johnson, Muizz Mustapha, Owen Trout (2019).

So 13 debuts, of which 6 have already left.  If a club the size of Leeds with its resources can't produce at least 2 quality juniors a year then the sport is in deep doodoo.  I'd say you need at least that for the sport to be self sufficient.

I think one a year is what most clubs would aim for. And Leeds to me look more than on track for doing that over the past few years.

Players who play once or twice for the first team aren't unusual and don't particularly indicate anything.

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18 minutes ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

The Golden Generation stunted junior development - it would have blocked Leeds from bothering to push for the best juniors in some positions (like halfback). 

Where the club let itself down was not going back to the basics of junior development earlier - we've had very few quality youngsters ready to step up since 2015.  In 2018 when we were once again awful Holroyd was the only junior who debuted.  I'd say that was one reason why McDermott had to go - he wrung the last out of the quality players he had but oversaw a deficit in junior production which contributed to standards falling catastrophically once they were gone.

Here's Leeds' junior debutants from 2015 to 2019 (I've left out this year which was different for everyone):

Jordan Lilley (2015), Josh Jordan-Roberts, Sam Hallas, Cameron Smith (2016), Harry Newman, Mikolaj Oledzki, Alex Sutcliffe, Jack Walker, Harvey Whiteley (2017), Tom Holroyd (2018), Corey Johnson, Muizz Mustapha, Owen Trout (2019).

So 13 debuts, of which 6 have already left.  If a club the size of Leeds with its resources can't produce at least 2 quality juniors a year then the sport is in deep doodoo.  I'd say you need at least that for the sport to be self sufficient.

It's an interesting analysis.  Six have left the club but you would say that four have established themselves in the first team squad (Cameron Smith, Harry Newman, Mikolaj Oledzki and Jack Walker) while Tom Holroyd is probably in that category as well but with fewer appearances.  So five first team players developed since 2015.

I wonder how this record compare with the likes of Saints and Wigan based on their debutants from 2015 to today?

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Dunno. But one a year isn't even going to replace players leaving, let alone build a side.  If a club with Leeds' resources is satisfied with averaging one decent junior a year and filling all other gaps with signings, how could anyone have a go at any other clubs? 

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33 minutes ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

The Golden Generation stunted junior development - it would have blocked Leeds from bothering to push for the best juniors in some positions (like halfback). 

Where the club let itself down was not going back to the basics of junior development earlier - we've had very few quality youngsters ready to step up since 2015.  In 2018 when we were once again awful Holroyd was the only junior who debuted.  I'd say that was one reason why McDermott had to go - he wrung the last out of the quality players he had but oversaw a deficit in junior production which contributed to standards falling catastrophically once they were gone.

Here's Leeds' junior debutants from 2015 to 2019 (I've left out this year which was different for everyone):

Jordan Lilley (2015), Josh Jordan-Roberts, Sam Hallas, Cameron Smith (2016), Harry Newman, Mikolaj Oledzki, Alex Sutcliffe, Jack Walker, Harvey Whiteley (2017), Tom Holroyd (2018), Corey Johnson, Muizz Mustapha, Owen Trout (2019).

So 13 debuts, of which 6 have already left.  If a club the size of Leeds with its resources can't produce at least 2 quality juniors a year then the sport is in deep doodoo.  I'd say you need at least that for the sport to be self sufficient.

I've always seen it as a bit of a folly to see junior development as some sort of "production line" or "conveyor belt" to be honest, rather than something that is natually going to peak and trough simply due to the unpredictable way in which kids are going to come into the system, in terms of their abilities and aptitude. 

The golden generation was just that - a golden generation of talented, like-minded and ambitious kids who all just happened to be at the same club at the same time. The idea that you could even get close to replicating that with any sort of consistency seems a bit fanciful in any sport. Manchester United had the 'class of 99' but have since relied heavily on bought-in talent alongside occasional academy graduates, and I don't necessarily think that it's a reflection of underinvestment in talent identification or development.  

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10 minutes ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

Dunno. But one a year isn't even going to replace players leaving, let alone build a side.  If a club with Leeds' resources is satisfied with averaging one decent junior a year and filling all other gaps with signings, how could anyone have a go at any other clubs? 

I am certainly not criticising any clubs for developing junior talent. I am really keen on seeing young English players develop.

We compete really well at junior level now as shown by the last series win for the Academy vs. Australia and the success Saints have had in tours down under but I don't think that plays through enough between say ages 19 and 22 when a lot of our kids fall away. The Aussies appear to have a better record of bringing top class talent into first grade despite the NRL being a higher standard and I think this plays through at international level.

I would be keen to see a similar analysis on the Saints and Wigan players cementing first team (squad) spots as Leeds, Wigan and Saints have been among the best for junior development. 

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My take on this is that 'Golden generation' type players coming through are just that because it happens so rarely that so many talented players all come through at the same time. Overall however, I look at it a little differently - pretty much half of Leeds current starting 17 came through the academy. Granted at various different times but still that's a pretty strong model to have for any side i'd suggest. I've not done the analysis on Wigan/Saints, but again aside from these rogue 'golden generation' type clustering of players we get from time to time, i'd suggest they're about the same. 

Current Leeds players that would feasibly in the starting 17 and came through the academy. 

Luke Gale 

Jack Walker

Harry Newman

Ash Handley

Liam Sutcliffe

Mikolaj Oledzki

Cam Smith

Tom Holroyd and/or Alex Sutcliffe

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

It's an interesting analysis.  Six have left the club but you would say that four have established themselves in the first team squad (Cameron Smith, Harry Newman, Mikolaj Oledzki and Jack Walker) while Tom Holroyd is probably in that category as well but with fewer appearances.  So five first team players developed since 2015.

I wonder how this record compare with the likes of Saints and Wigan based on their debutants from 2015 to today?

Perhaps more pertinently, how many more are playing around Super League and the championship?

A lot is the clear answer. There were running jokes over the past 10 years that to get into some Super League squads you had to be an ex Leeds player 

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13 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

How many of those players who've left Leeds have gone on to successful Super League careers?

As highly regarded as Jordan Lilley was, for example, no club has gone waving their chequebook at Bradford.

Paul McShane was man of steel literally last year

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27 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

I should have said more recently. 

Mulhern has just gone from KR to St Helens.

Singleton has now played in a Grand Final at Wigan having been at Toronto.

Ash Golding is going reasonably well at Huddersfield.

That Watkins at Salford seems to be a decent player too.

Are we allowed to say Zak Hardaker?👀👀👀

Going further back (but still current Super League players), Daniel Smith is doing well at Cas, Ben Jones-Bishop is reportedly one of the highest paid players at Wakefield, and Gale (having been an ex Leeds player) is now on top wages.

There's some argument to be had that if they are top players, barring maybe the likes of Kyle Amor and Luke Gale over the past 20 years, Leeds have tended to keep hold of them for as long as possible. After which point they tend to be going to Championship clubs as Leeds have had the best out of them. The clear point being that very few players, let alone academy graduates, have left Leeds at their prime over the past 15 years as quite frankly unless its for the NRL or maybe Wigan/Saints, why would you?

There's also nothing wrong with being a solid grafting Super League player, of which Leeds and Wigan especially have produced loads of. The likes of Lilley, Hallas, Ward, Hood, Clarkson, Keinhorst etc, the lower reaches of Super League, the championship and League 1 are littered with players of that mould. Its unsurprising that clubs without major resources take on a lot of players who for whatever reason aren't getting a look in at say Leeds, because they know fundamentally they'll have been reasonably well coached and used to an elite environment, often they'll have been kids they kept tabs on from junior ranks too. They don't have to be superstars, by the fact they're able to sign them from the big clubs by definition its unlikely they will be anyway.

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8 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

But its been a long time since they've produced any of real quality

In our first team squad we have the following home grown players.

Jack Walker

Ash Handley

Luke Briscoe 

Harry Newman

Alex Sutcliffe

Mik Oledski 

Tom Holroyd

Cam Smith

Liam Sutcliffe

Sam Walters

Jarrad O’Connor 

Liam Tindall

Jack Broadbent

Corey Hall

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13 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

In our first team squad we have the following home grown players.

Jack Walker

Ash Handley

Luke Briscoe 

Harry Newman

Alex Sutcliffe

Mik Oledski 

Tom Holroyd

Cam Smith

Liam Sutcliffe

Sam Walters

Jarrad O’Connor 

Liam Tindall

Jack Broadbent

Corey Hall

One of whom was 2020 Top Try Scorer, another played in and won a Grand Final as a teenager, and the other was Super League Young Player of the Year, just to highlight a few. But obviously no "real quality"

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OK, I'll bite. Handley, Newman, Oldezki I'll accept as quality.

Cam Smith has yet to even go a full season at his best but I think he could be a star (although some of his defence for quite a big guy is terrible and he's one of several players in the Leeds squad who looks overweight).

Walker - never seen anything from him to convince me he's the player of a generation he was made out to be.  Even his defenders admit he's not that quick, can't break a tackle and can't pass. He needs to improve enormously, or he'll end up as a 'might have been'. 

Liam Sutcliffe - would have been happy to see him leave. He's a terrible 6, too slow for fullback and not even a good centre.  If everyone was fit he wouldn't be in the first 13 and most likely not in the top 17. If anything he probably blocks a spot for the next decent kid coming through.

Luke Briscoe? Championship winger, no idea why anyone would suggest otherwise.

The rest might become stars but are nowhere near yet.

I'm not suggesting Leeds should have a Golden Generation at the ready every year. However, its simple maths - on average every year at least 2 first team players leave. If you want to be self-sufficient you need to average something like 2 new genuine first teamers each year.  The production line can of course be lumpy, but you need to be somewhere near that.  At every club.  Counting players who end up in the Championship or released because they weren't deemed good enough as some measure of 'success' is daft from the club's perspective. 

Since 2014 or thereabouts that production line has been nowhere near as impressive, and when the team was falling to bits in 2016 we had very few quality juniors ready to step in to help.  We finally seem to have turned things around, but very much post McDermott.  Hence so many juniors who have huge potential but aren't ready yet, and very few in that peak age range of 21-27. Utterly shambolic planning for the end of the Golden Generation, as shown in  our generally poor seasons since 2015.

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5 hours ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

OK, I'll bite. Handley, Newman, Oldezki I'll accept as quality.

Cam Smith has yet to even go a full season at his best but I think he could be a star (although some of his defence for quite a big guy is terrible and he's one of several players in the Leeds squad who looks overweight).

Walker - never seen anything from him to convince me he's the player of a generation he was made out to be.  Even his defenders admit he's not that quick, can't break a tackle and can't pass. He needs to improve enormously, or he'll end up as a 'might have been'. 

Liam Sutcliffe - would have been happy to see him leave. He's a terrible 6, too slow for fullback and not even a good centre.  If everyone was fit he wouldn't be in the first 13 and most likely not in the top 17. If anything he probably blocks a spot for the next decent kid coming through.

Luke Briscoe? Championship winger, no idea why anyone would suggest otherwise.

The rest might become stars but are nowhere near yet.

I'm not suggesting Leeds should have a Golden Generation at the ready every year. However, its simple maths - on average every year at least 2 first team players leave. If you want to be self-sufficient you need to average something like 2 new genuine first teamers each year.  The production line can of course be lumpy, but you need to be somewhere near that.  At every club.  Counting players who end up in the Championship or released because they weren't deemed good enough as some measure of 'success' is daft from the club's perspective. 

Since 2014 or thereabouts that production line has been nowhere near as impressive, and when the team was falling to bits in 2016 we had very few quality juniors ready to step in to help.  We finally seem to have turned things around, but very much post McDermott.  Hence so many juniors who have huge potential but aren't ready yet, and very few in that peak age range of 21-27. Utterly shambolic planning for the end of the Golden Generation, as shown in  our generally poor seasons since 2015.

No club is or aims to be self sufficient. Leeds produce more Super League and Championship players than any other club, this is a measure of our academy’s success as well as the home grown players we keep.

Obviously there was going to be a transition after the golden generation. In a 16 year period we won the Super League title on 8 occasions, an astonishing 50% record which probably will never again be achieved by any club, anyone who expected that to continue was deluded. After 1972 we didn’t win the title again until 2004, this period is nothing like that, with the academy production line we have the next Super League title will be collected shortly and we won the Challenge Cup in 2020, you don’t achieve that without quality players.

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