Ireland

[Griff]

11 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Sheffield is 30 miles from Wakefield and 20 miles from Doncaster. Heartland!

26½ and 25, actually.  

By the fastest routes.

[Gooleboy]

Just now, Griff said:

Were you not a members' club until 1995 and sold your business to a new limited company ?

Correct, it was a Members Club. I think ourselves Widnes and Dewsbury were the last three. Not sure on this, but if I remember correctly, SL wanted Clubs to be Limited as opposed to Members Clubs, but I am not 100%.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

37 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

So under your theory, Hull and Hull KR are as well. Regarding York being out on a limb, it is 20 miles from Leeds! 

Bolton, Preston, Blackburn are all places within 20 miles of Wigan, if any were to form a professional club they’d be an expansion club too.

[Barley Mow]

10 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Bolton, Preston, Blackburn are all places within 20 miles of Wigan, if any were to form a professional club they’d be an expansion club too.

But if any of those places had had a professional club representing them every year since 1898 like York, they they wouldn't be considered expansion clubs.

Rochdale is 20 miles from Wigan, but nobody would suggest they're an expansion club because (like York) there is a long tradition of playing RL.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Also in Belfast, like possibly Glasgow too, the local council have supported a sporting enterprise that explicitly went above sectarianism.

From memory when we got funding from Belfast City Council that was part of the pitch. Every sport is more closely linked with one community or another. GAA in the Catholic schools, RU and Cricket in the elitist Protestant grammar schools. Even Football, despite being hugely popular, is very much a Protestant game in terms of the domestic league and NI team. RL doesn't have such baggage, similar to Ice Hockey and the Belfast Giants that attract support from across the spectrum.

[Tommygilf]

21 minutes ago, Damien said:

From memory when we got funding from Belfast City Council that was part of the pitch. Every sport is more closely linked with one community or another. GAA in the Catholic schools, RU and Cricket in the elitist Protestant grammar schools. Even Football, despite being hugely popular, is very much a Protestant game in terms of the domestic league and NI team. RL doesn't have such baggage, similar to Ice Hockey and the Belfast Giants that attract support from across the spectrum.

Exactly, so much of dealing with government is ticking certain boxes I can see why that would be seen as a pro.

The lack of independent professional RL infrastructure in Belfast may be a difficulty maintaining that though as whether a prospective League 1/Super League team was playing out of Kingspan or Windsor Park (realistically the best two stadiums without going into grounds more reminiscent of Castleford) could still hold some of the grudges. It contrasts with the Hockey who have the arena as theirs alone.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Gooleboy said:

Correct, it was a Members Club. I think ourselves Widnes and Dewsbury were the last three. Not sure on this, but if I remember correctly, SL wanted Clubs to be Limited as opposed to Members Clubs, but I am not 100%.

New club then.   Only 25½ years old.

[The Future is League]

6 hours ago, Griff said:

What's your view on players qualifying for England by residence ?

England needs to find and develop young talented players too.

I don't agree with players qualifying for England by a 3 or 5 year residency. 8 years minimum.

I don't agree with a rule for internationals through a grandparent either.

[Griff]

Just now, The Future is League said:

I don't agree with a rule for internationals through a grandparent either.

You may not, but it's a pretty standard arrangement throughout team sports.

Who are we (Rugby League, that is) to plough our own furrow.

[Damien]

15 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Exactly, so much of dealing with government is ticking certain boxes I can see why that would be seen as a pro.

The lack of independent professional RL infrastructure in Belfast may be a difficulty maintaining that though as whether a prospective League 1/Super League team was playing out of Kingspan or Windsor Park (realistically the best two stadiums without going into grounds more reminiscent of Castleford) could still hold some of the grudges. It contrasts with the Hockey who have the arena as theirs alone.

I don't think Windsor would work at all. Frankly half the city wouldn't go near it and its a rough old area too walking there from the City Centre. Casement when its redeveloped would be too big and again suffers from the fact that half the city wouldn't go and GAA wouldn't allow it anyway. Glentoran are talking about redeveloping the Oval and its right next to the City Airport but it is very much East Belfast and again not the best area. There is also Cliftonville and Crusaders grounds in North Belfast but one is seen as very much a Catholic club and the other Protestant. Ravenhill is probably the most neutral location, and is very much a Super League standard ground after the Government paid for it to be redeveloped, and you may get some 'Rugby' crossover too. Belfast isn't short of stadiums but I'd say only Ravenhill really fits the bill.

[Gooleboy]

40 minutes ago, Griff said:

New club then.   Only 25½ years old.

Celebrating it's Centenary this season, but who am I to argue.

[Big Picture]

Yesterday's Daily Mirror had a story about Ronan Michael, a young Dubliner who's with Huddersfield now.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

I don't think Windsor would work at all. Frankly half the city wouldn't go near it and its a rough old area too walking there from the City Centre. Casement when its redeveloped would be too big and again suffers from the fact that half the city wouldn't go and GAA wouldn't allow it anyway. Glentoran are talking about redeveloping the Oval and its right next to the City Airport but it is very much East Belfast and again not the best area. There is also Cliftonville and Crusaders grounds in North Belfast but one is seen as very much a Catholic club and the other Protestant. Ravenhill is probably the most neutral location, and is very much a Super League standard ground after the Government paid for it to be redeveloped, and you may get some 'Rugby' crossover too. Belfast isn't short of stadiums but I'd say only Ravenhill really fits the bill.

Totally agree with all of that mate, don't think Cliftonville (isn't their ground called solitude or something weird) or Crusaders at seaview would be up to scratch frankly. 

I guess it would be the most "neutral" from a sectarian perspective, but would potentially involve a rugby based divide... it is a way out from the city centre iirc though. My brother has been and said it was good though.

[Damien]

13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Totally agree with all of that mate, don't think Cliftonville (isn't their ground called solitude or something weird) or Crusaders at seaview would be up to scratch frankly. 

I guess it would be the most "neutral" from a sectarian perspective, but would potentially involve a rugby based divide... it is a way out from the city centre iirc though. My brother has been and said it was good though.

It wouldn't be too different than Headingley from Leeds city centre.

[Tommygilf]

32 minutes ago, Damien said:

It wouldn't be too different than Headingley from Leeds city centre.

Has it got the area around it though like Headingleh has?

[damp squib]

I can’t see Belfast working because I think whatever niche RL could have broken into has been taken by Giants Ice Hockey. Belfast is not that big a city and already has The Giants, Ulster Rugby, Antrim GAA (professional in all but name) and four Irish League soccer clubs.

Dublin has the capacity for another professional sports club but the problems as always are:

1) Nobody knows what Rugby League is

2) Nowhere to play - best option would be the newly redeveloped Dalymount Park in a few years but that will be shared by TWO League of Ireland soccer teams (summer season)

3) You know how in Britain Rugby Union is intensely hostile to urban working class rival sports? Well imagine that but x2 (Union and GAA)

4) Expenses - not just for running the club but they would need a cost of living salary cap dispensation similar to London

5) Above all else, none of this will happen without a wealthy backer who’ll pay for everything for years while the club tries to establish itself

 

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Has it got the area around it though like Headingleh has?

Nah not really, pretty residential much like Headingley but not really the shops, pubs bit the same.

[Damien]

39 minutes ago, damp squib said:

I can’t see Belfast working because I think whatever niche RL could have broken into has been taken by Giants Ice Hockey. Belfast is not that big a city and already has The Giants, Ulster Rugby, Antrim GAA (professional in all but name) and four Irish League soccer clubs.

Dublin has the capacity for another professional sports club but the problems as always are:

1) Nobody knows what Rugby League is

2) Nowhere to play - best option would be the newly redeveloped Dalymount Park in a few years but that will be shared by TWO League of Ireland soccer teams (summer season)

3) You know how in Britain Rugby Union is intensely hostile to urban working class rival sports? Well imagine that but x2 (Union and GAA)

4) Expenses - not just for running the club but they would need a cost of living salary cap dispensation similar to London

5) Above all else, none of this will happen without a wealthy backer who’ll pay for everything for years while the club tries to establish itself

There are stacks of reasons why Belfast could work. Some of what you cite is a very misleading, things like four Irish League clubs gives a false impression. Few watch those clubs really and they are not even on the radar for most, much of their support is in the immediate vicinity and they wouldn't be the target fan base you are looking for. Antrim GAA have always got poor attendances compared to every other Ulster county, the real strength of GAA in Ulster really isn't really the big cities. The only big drawing team on a regular basis is Ulster RU and that is more of a recent development since the stadium redevelopment too. Belfast Giants have a dedicated fanbase and average 4-5k.

Expenses and funding is one key differentiator between Belfast and Dublin. I actually wouldn't be surprised if funding could be obtained to make a team largely self funding. The City is also booming and is becoming a real tech hub with plenty of potential sponsors whilst being a fairly low cost place to live. The major issue is that a Belfast team would be more dependent on air travel due to the ferry to Liverpool taking 8 hours and the shorter route to Stranraer then taking an age to drive down to the heartland teams.

[Henson Park Old Firm]

Ireland needs 2  clubs one in Dublin other in Belfast...  (Ireland of Origin) but on another note, I'd rather (granted not enough players and the sport isn't that popular or well known) but I would love to see Northern Ireland represent itself just like the football.

[mrfranco]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

 

 The major issue is that a Belfast team would be more dependent on air travel due to the ferry to Liverpool taking 8 hours and the shorter route to Stranraer then taking an age to drive down to the heartland teams.

Surely that'll be sorted when Boris gets his roundabout built below the Isle of Man...

On a more serious note... and it's all academic anyway at this point... but would the RU authorities that run the provincial ground be amenable to a new RL club using the ground??

 

[damp squib]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

There are stacks of reasons why Belfast could work. Some of what you cite is a very misleading, things like four Irish League clubs gives a false impression. Few watch those clubs really and they are not even on the radar for most, much of their support is in the immediate vicinity and they wouldn't be the target fan base you are looking for. Antrim GAA have always got poor attendances compared to every other Ulster county, the real strength of GAA in Ulster really isn't really the big cities. The only big drawing team on a regular basis is Ulster RU and that is more of a recent development since the stadium redevelopment too. Belfast Giants have a dedicated fanbase and average 4-5k.

Expenses and funding is one key differentiator between Belfast and Dublin. I actually wouldn't be surprised if funding could be obtained to make a team largely self funding. The City is also booming and is becoming a real tech hub with plenty of potential sponsors whilst being a fairly low cost place to live. The major issue is that a Belfast team would be more dependent on air travel due to the ferry to Liverpool taking 8 hours and the shorter route to Stranraer then taking an age to drive down to the heartland teams.

You definitely know Belfast better than me and I didn’t mean to mislead.

My reasoning was that although League of Ireland clubs in Dublin don’t draw well either I would certainly take them into account when considering competition for a limited potential fanbase and especially media attention.

Antrim GAA is a different story and I think hugely affected by the situation with Casement. Once that’s resolved I can see the GAA flooding Belfast with money like they did in Dublin and we all know how that turned out.

I hope I’m wrong though!

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, damp squib said:

You definitely know Belfast better than me and I didn’t mean to mislead.

My reasoning was that although League of Ireland clubs in Dublin don’t draw well either I would certainly take them into account when considering competition for a limited potential fanbase and especially media attention.

Antrim GAA is a different story and I think hugely affected by the situation with Casement. Once that’s resolved I can see the GAA flooding Belfast with money like they did in Dublin and we all know how that turned out.

I hope I’m wrong though!

Similarly you know Dublin better than me but I think I'm safe in saying domestic teams and areas don't have the same stigma as Belfast. 99% of football fans I have ever come across in couldn't care less about domestic football. That is before you get into the politics of it, like Belfast Celtic having to disband due to the sectarianism they faced, Derry City playing in the league of Ireland, issues around the NI team with many supporting ROI instead etc.

I don't think the situation in Belfast regarding GAA will change that much as Antrim is very much a hurling county but the vast majority of Ulster is Gaelic Football. Even before casement was closed the attendances were shocking compared to every other county. Antrim just doesn't have the rivalries or fanaticism that the Football counties have where it really is life or death for some and the focal point of the community.

Dublin has always had that strong GAA pedigree and of course Croke Park. Dublin just seems like a tougher nut to crack and it would cost considerably more to do so too I think. NI is always desperate for investment, recognition and job creation but I'm not sure if Dublin would be as supportive. I also think the GAA is much stronger in Dublin with the more working class types with RU strong with the richer parts of Dublin and the people that go to those schools that play it. Dublin would be fantastic and some of the soccer grounds would be good bases. I just see more of a gap in Belfast than I do in Dublin but maybe its just because I know it well, I may well be wrong.

[Harrogate Fire Ants]

Putting union aside your main competition in ROI and some extent NI is the GAA traditionally the final is around the 1st Sunday of September for football. Although it would be great to see the 4 provinces of All Ireland play I believe that would be unlikely. However you could easily have a presence at a GAA club and use the league game as a warm up. Dublin have already got a handball side aligned with them. 

I personally think the attraction would come from Dublin mainly because of the weekend away opportunities and the cheap flights from both LBA, London, Manchester and Newcastle. The regular GAA side play at Parnell Park which is around 13,000 capacity stadium before it goes to county level at Croke Park (option for magic) personaly as the season clashes with the GAA to play matches as warm up may one way to build enthusiasm behind the RL side. 

 

[Harrogate Fire Ants]

8 hours ago, Damien said:

Similarly you know Dublin better than me but I think I'm safe in saying domestic teams and areas don't have the same stigma as Belfast. 99% of football fans I have ever come across in couldn't care less about domestic football. That is before you get into the politics of it, like Belfast Celtic having to disband due to the sectarianism they faced, Derry City playing in the league of Ireland, issues around the NI team with many supporting ROI instead etc.

I don't think the situation in Belfast regarding GAA will change that much as Antrim is very much a hurling county but the vast majority of Ulster is Gaelic Football. Even before casement was closed the attendances were shocking compared to every other county. Antrim just doesn't have the rivalries or fanaticism that the Football counties have where it really is life or death for some and the focal point of the community.

Dublin has always had that strong GAA pedigree and of course Croke Park. Dublin just seems like a tougher nut to crack and it would cost considerably more to do so too I think. NI is always desperate for investment, recognition and job creation but I'm not sure if Dublin would be as supportive. I also think the GAA is much stronger in Dublin with the more working class types with RU strong with the richer parts of Dublin and the people that go to those schools that play it. Dublin would be fantastic and some of the soccer grounds would be good bases. I just see more of a gap in Belfast than I do in Dublin but maybe its just because I know it well, I may well be wrong.

It would be great to try and get Belfast anywhere in Ireland it seems to take ages to get anywhere other than Dublin or Belfast. The downside is always the argument of what makes up Ireland

 

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Harrogate Fire Ants said:

Putting union aside your main competition in ROI and some extent NI is the GAA traditionally the final is around the 1st Sunday of September for football. Although it would be great to see the 4 provinces of All Ireland play I believe that would be unlikely. However you could easily have a presence at a GAA club and use the league game as a warm up. Dublin have already got a handball side aligned with them. 

I personally think the attraction would come from Dublin mainly because of the weekend away opportunities and the cheap flights from both LBA, London, Manchester and Newcastle. The regular GAA side play at Parnell Park which is around 13,000 capacity stadium before it goes to county level at Croke Park (option for magic) personaly as the season clashes with the GAA to play matches as warm up may one way to build enthusiasm behind the RL side. 

There's some long term, nationalist, anti-everything that isn't Irish sentiments in the GAA unfortunately. They generally won't like an "English sport" being played on GAA pitches, though that may have changed.