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League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)


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It’s not watering down is Darwin’s approach to survival, IF this is implemented ASAP the clubs with cash will stack their squads with the best they can find and build from there, with luck this could see the salary cap raised massively in SL1 forcing clubs to secure income to compete and taking the game forward

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25 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Well it’s taken them too long to see sense, and Sky will love the 2 tens for the next tv deal. SL will have 2 games per week From each comp and we get an increased tv deal and a new knock out comp for extra income with the season kicking off with the CC. I would have preferred an extra french club or two in the mix though

Continually asserting that Sky are going to pay money for the second tier (whatever name you give it) just ignores 25 years of history. No-one, and I mean no-one, has ever paid for tier 2 RL broadcast rights. They're not worth a penny.

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"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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Too many unknowns to really make a judgement, and if course its just one option, probably leaked for strategic reason by one of the factions. 

The one thing that doesn't add up to me in the article, though, is the mention of significantly reducing the funding gap between tier one and two. The TV deal is worth millions less, so there's no more money to boost tier two payments. (Even if you assume tier 3 will now get next to nothing, it doesn't remotely make up the fall in TV revenue.) 

So the only way to close the funding gap between SL1 and SL2 is to significantly cut the top tier distribution. And I think we all know that ain't happening, nor should it because we don't want the weaker SL teams falling even further behind the salary cap. 

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7 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

It’s not watering down is Darwin’s approach to survival, IF this is implemented ASAP the clubs with cash will stack their squads with the best they can find and build from there, with luck this could see the salary cap raised massively in SL1 forcing clubs to secure income to compete and taking the game forward

Indeed. It would unleash competitive forces in ways fixed ‘East M62’ and ‘West M62’ conferences wouldn’t, in SL2 as well as SL1.

Edited by Man of Kent
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The best thing about this reorganisation which the Salop Bovine is totally against is that League positioning and selection will be based on ongoing on-field performance through P&R and non of this protected from relegation tripe he is so fond of.

If it does go through there is no guarantee of any club in next season's championship finishing in the top 6 and that includes Newcastle and York, should be a very exiting Championship next year.

 

 

Edited by Harry Stottle
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9 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

If you can’t see that those other things I mention are an important part of any structure change then I really don’t know what to say. All of those issues exist, we must acknowledge these if we’re changing structure (again) but most likely we won’t (again) and the powers that be and clubs will stand around in 18 months wondering why so many issues exist (again).

To water down a product further by adding two more sides is just very Rugby League. It’s short sighted and it helps nobody at all and solves no issue with the game bar the removal of loop fixtures. It actually adds to the issues we have.

I regularly watch amateur games too and occasionally watch Widnes or even rarer watch Leigh, as they had Saints players on dual reg. I can still see and understand that the standard of Rugby League, especially that of Super League is not particularly high onfield.

As for meaningless games, we have plenty. Twenty-seven to thirty bloody rounds some years in Super League so it’s absolutely jam packed with nothing games, whether it’s three or four games against the same team, playing teams who are clearly out of their depth in an apparent “elite” level or just filler games waiting for the actual rugby to start again. There’s only so many meaningless games of an average quality (if you’re that lucky) that you can watch before it gets a bit boring, Saints’ 2019 season was very much like that. We were in the play-offs very early on in the year but we had easily 10+ games, largely, of going through the motions while we waited for the play-offs. Even as a Saints fan, it was a bit monotonous eventually and just felt like Friendlies in the build up to the play-offs. 

For clarity, I'm not saying those things are not important I just don't see that they directly impact league structure at elite level, spending time considering those things rather than the main topic could become distracting. All of those things are important and need to be considered but not at the expense of concentrating on the main topic, which is league structure at the top of the game. That is what funds those other things you mention, so if that isn't right the other things will struggle anyway, get the elite right and the rest should be easier to improve.

My points stand over structure and I believe reducing teams is watering down IMO not improving, more teams, more opportunities for our academy players etc.

2 leagues of 10 as a Super League 1 and 2 I could see, if they had a way of removing loop fixtures which I believe are less attractive than a 13th and 14th team.

Your point about meaningless games leading to play offs is another point, I like the play offs but a reduction in overall teams in the league means top 6 is easier to achieve, fewer teams should be reflected in the amount of teams entering play offs.

I understood why they did the middle 8s, that was supposed to fix meaningless games but in reality it didn't work, wasn't attractive and I really didn't like it.

The premiership football league has one winner, if knowing your not going to win or go down they would have many many meaningless games but I just don't see it. People say there is money for every league position but that matter little to a player on the pitch, they work hard as this is their job, they need to answer to fans watching etc. Those are greater motivators 

It appears we won't see eye to eye on this, I respect your view, I'll continue to reflect on your points but for now I don't see it your way.

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20 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

Continually asserting that Sky are going to pay money for the second tier (whatever name you give it) just ignores 25 years of history. No-one, and I mean no-one, has ever paid for tier 2 RL broadcast rights. They're not worth a penny.

Harsh truth 🙁

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44 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

Continually asserting that Sky are going to pay money for the second tier (whatever name you give it) just ignores 25 years of history. No-one, and I mean no-one, has ever paid for tier 2 RL broadcast rights. They're not worth a penny.

What about when TWP played in Lg1??

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58 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

It’s not watering down is Darwin’s approach to survival

You do know that when Darwin talked of "survival of the fittest" he didn't mean the strongest?

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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25 minutes ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

Amazing how much hot air can be generated by one journalist's uncorroborated tweet!

Johnny Davidson is hands down the best journalist we have in this country reporting on Rugby League. He’s no Shaw or Bower, he’s the real deal. 

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On 30/07/2021 at 14:23, Harry Stottle said:

Give your crystal ball another rub, and personal message me tonights lottery numbers.

And, I don't have a scarecrow to put anywhere, ask Fighting Irish he thinks he is Dorothy from the Wiz.😳

My Ruby Slippers are all I've got left, my reversible throbatron is not what it was.

Edited by fighting irish
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1 hour ago, wiganermike said:

No clubs will be cut in order to get to the proposed structure. We currently have 12 in SL, 14 in Championship and 10 in League 1. Next season we will have 14 in SL, 12 in Championship and 10 in League 1 (no mention made of a change in P&R between Champ and L1 this year so I assume the number of teams in L1 will stay the same next year). The 16 teams in League 1 in 2023 will be the 10 that were there in 2022 plus the bottom 6 in the 2022 Championship.

There has been no recent mention of plans to introduce Ottawa into our leagues still progressing (other than Eric Perez answering a question about it prior to the collapse of the NARL project. He said it was still in their plans to enter League 1 in addition to NARL) and no mention at all of a return for TWP so I don't think either will figure in the RFL/SL system earlier than 2024 if they ever do at all. Given the reluctance and resistance to TWP being accepted as part of the UK system I think they (NA clubs) would be better off establishing a semi pro comp in Canada/USA and building up in that way. Either that or join the USARL.

Thank you for that. 

My main concern for the 16 league set up is that with no significant funding and extremely low attendances  then several teams will not last long. 

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15 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

You do know that when Darwin talked of "survival of the fittest" he didn't mean the strongest?

It's amazing how many people misinterpreted that quote. It was always about the species that could adapt and change to its environment. Quote apt at the moment really.

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33 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said:

What about when TWP played in Lg1??

Didn't TWP pay for all the broadcasting costs and basically give it to Sky etc? Didn't they still owe thousands in unpaid costs to the production company they hired to do so when they went pop?

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7 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Didn't TWP pay for all the broadcasting costs and basically give it to Sky etc? Didn't they still owe thousands in unpaid costs to the production company they hired to do so when they went pop?

I vote yes.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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1 hour ago, nadera78 said:

Continually asserting that Sky are going to pay money for the second tier (whatever name you give it) just ignores 25 years of history. No-one, and I mean no-one, has ever paid for tier 2 RL broadcast rights. They're not worth a penny.

Yet this pie in the sky thinking still continually reasonates within the corridors of power. The sport lacks leadership; or at least talking truth to power. I simply cannot fathom how so many supposed clever people cannot the structures are not the issue in the sport; that changing them is some form of magical cure for the game's ills in the NH. Staggering.

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11 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Didn't TWP pay for all the broadcasting costs and basically give it to Sky etc? Didn't they still owe thousands in unpaid costs to the production company they hired to do so when they went pop?

No idea - that's why I was asking.

So we both don't know.

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Although I applaud some different thinking I do not see how 2 leagues of 10 with P&R can work financially. What sense is there in teams accepting an equal or smaller slice of the pie than at the moment but losing 4 home games?  Also the option of playing each other 3 times to compensate is not attractive at all.

So IMHO a 2 x 10 Conference system is a more attractive option with a 27 game season (home and away in their league then play each tram in the other league once) with the possibility of 2 Magic Weekends with 10 teams at each event so hold these events in areas identified for growth.

But this option would require a heck of a lot of goodwill and compromise from SL clubs as ALL 20 clubs will have an equal share of the TV money.  No doubt some of the bigger clubs may be able to absorb the reduction in TV money but some SL clubs would have to release players to teams that will have increased their turnover from a greater share of TV money than they get at present. One positive consequence is that this should initially produce a closer competition.

One way to let ALL clubs generate greater income would be to scrap the Salary Cap and let teams spend an agreed percentage of turnover. Some clubs would be at a disadvantage but we have seen that the tail wagging the dog has not worked.  BUT, if this approach is adopted it makes ALL clubs more attractive for an investor as their money can be invested in building a stronger team as well off field infrastructure.  We saw with Koucash how frustrated he was that his millions made diddly squat in what Salford could spend on players and IMHO that restrictiveness is keeping investors out of the sport.

 

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2 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

 

What happens next year then if Toulouse go up,  have 3 big games against Catalan and then we bin them off to play Batley again?

At least that way teams like York Toulouse and Newcastle can grow organically with exposure to bigger teams as a draw and Sky get plenty of rivalry games back.

They might not be binned off to play Batley again because the new structure risks sending one of the best run teams in RL in Batley in to the third tier. Although because its not fashionable to have a well run team without a big money backer in RL and rather be self sustainable, will anyone care?

As for the 2nd part 2 of those 3 teams run a very real risk of not even making the 2nd tier.

 

 

Edited by The Blues Ox
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This idea will at least keep most happy and in 1 season I think create the near perfect SL.

As for SKY showing SL 2 when they used to show the championship we had some very enjoyable matches on TV.

What is not being discussed on here is the fact that SKY have lost an awful lot of Rugby Union the Celtic League (Original name) which will now have extra clubs from SA is staying on Premier Sports and they do not seem interested in taking the Championship back (The contract ran out last year) SL 2 (Championship) is the perfect fit for SKY to keep a decent amount of Rugby content on.

Paul

 

Edited by ATLANTISMAN
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2 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

They might not be binned off to play Batley again because the new structure risks sending one of the best run teams in RL in Batley in to the third tier. Although because its not fashionable to have a well run team without a big money backer in RL and rather be self sustainable, will anyone care?

As for the 2nd part 2 of those 3 teams run a very real risk of not even making the 2nd tier.

 

 

Yep.  Dewsbury well run too with their 3g pitches so will strip them of their games vs Bradford.  

Awful decision for me.

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2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

So let’s say in 2023 we have:

Leeds
Saints
Wigan
Wire
Catalans
Hull
Hull KR
Cas
Huddersfield
Salford

and

Wakefield
Leigh
Toulouse
Fev
London
Bradford
Halifax
York
Newcastle
Widnes

Instantly, both comps are more competitive - ‘SL2’ considerably more so than the Champ.

The impact on ‘SL1’ *should* be a virtuous circle where more/all clubs have to spend full cap just to survive - which in turn should should mean better players in SL1, higher quality matches and more intensity. 

I must say I really can't wait for this new structure to happen, nothing makes me want to watch my team more than going from challenging for a spot in SL to being in a relegation battle to go in to an obscure tier 3. 

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  • John Drake changed the title to League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)

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